[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Indeed. I hope this finally scotches the view that the 'barre' only really became common with the advent of the 6 string guitar - at least that was my intention! Martyn --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 16:27 Quite a few of the pieces in Foscarini's third book (1632) include passage just shifting up and down the fingerboard - usually with chord N and chord M. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Vihuelalist [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt [3]eisenha...@planet.nl Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:27 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance I wouldn't have considered Valdambrini 1646/47 a late source and he certainly peppers many pieces with movable alfabeto shapes in all positions up to and including thos requiring a 'barre' on the 9th fret. Without a detailed search I noted the following alfabeto shapes used used in this high position: M N P S H K G In his table to Book 2 (p 39) he even shows G H M S with a 'barre' on the 10th and 11the fret! But I couldn't see he used higher than the 9th in his pieces. MH --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Lex Eisenhardt [4]eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt [5]eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: Vihuelalist [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 13:45 What we don't know [but can think of nevertheless], is how many of the 24 were used in practice. The _early_ sources we have (Of cifras: Briceno, for instance. Of alfabeto: many) generally make use of just a limited selection, mainly in first position. Lex - Original Message - From: Monica Hall [1][7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson [2][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [3][9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:38 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance The barre certainly was an integral part of guitar technique in Spain where it all began. Amat's table of chords includes the whole 24, many of which are played with a barre. Also his table in Chapter 8 does enable you to work out the correct chords to strum for the most usual situations although it doesn't accommodate more complex chromatic harmony. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [4][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [11]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. [12]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co .uk 3. [13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e du 4. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Dear Monica, I'm really not sure you're right when you say below 'And while we are on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark under a single note but it is still a single note.' In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at least part of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN THOUGH the single note is dissonant. Foscarini is a good example of this. as ever, Martyn --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 17:10 Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is, however, who did what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come to us in songs and dances from 1600 - 1620, is predominantly very stereotype. It is what happened to be published. This is to say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least] originally used to give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This was most likely also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from Italy. Feel free to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but it would be helpful to know the sources. We should indeed use our imagination, but how far should that go? It would be interesting to know your sources. The only printed guitar book with dances to have survived from before 1620 is Montesardo, although there are some manuscripts. How many of these have you seen? Nobody is speculating about fantastic harmonic experiments. Just suggesting that there are ways of getting round some of the more obvious problems of combining a strummed accompaniement with a bass line. The one source which I have to hand is Sanseverino's songbook from 1616 - which I doubt whether you have seen or Alex Dean. Most of the songs in it are part songs and at least Sanseverino's (and he was a guitarist) way of dealing with a 4-3 suspension seems intentional and works in practice. I may bring to mind my 'dissonance' article (also in The Lute 47) in which I give the example of the manuscript of Pedruil (c.1614), with all kinds of extra notes added. As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open courses. There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the first chord which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted crotchet followed by a quaver. The point is that in very early sources they were experimenting with ways of indicating the rhythm and the duration of the notes as well as just indicating the chords and the direction of the strums. In a situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note values the stroke marks have a dual function. They indicate the duration of the notes and make the music easier to read. A suitable notation was not invented overnight. It evolved - and that is true of notation as a whole not just baroque guitar notation. You are simply working on the assumption that what the signs mean in later sources should be interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier. And while we are on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark under a single note but it is still a single note. Perhaps you should read The baroque guitar made simple on my web page. M To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Dear Lex,
You write below that 'I can assure you that many pupils hate them
('barre' chords) intensely.'
Well some beginners may find them a trouble at first but experience
tells us that practice soon renders them relatively easy: chords like N
P K G are very comfortable under the fingers; perhaps M S are a
little trickier but we've only 5 courses to span not the 6 on the
'modern' guitar. And bear in mind that M is not a million miles from
the ubiquitous D major chord shape on a g lute which some lute players
nowadays seem to struggle with but which the Old Ones used with
abandon.
Martyn
M
--- On Wed, 1/9/10, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 20:49
But Amat is rather pedantic about his
invention, and eager to prove his right.
I don't know what you mean by that.
I was thinking of his report of his meeting with the singers in the
pub. Seems to have been a self-satisfied exraordinary narrow pedantic
guitarist.
What he says is quite simple and
straightforward and works perfectly well in practice. Using a barre
is not that difficult!
I can assure you that many pupils hate them intensely. It is probably
not for nothing that the first seven chords of alfabeto, which are used
the most, have no barre.
Indeed. But if we consider the keys the dances are in, they are
almost all
in G major, G minor, D major, D minor and C major. That seems to
reflect
daily practice.
So..if you are just dancing it doesn't matter what key you
are in.
I thought we were discussing the practice of amateur guitarists. Easy
keys without many barre's make the five-course guitar much more
practical in self-accompaniment than a six-course instrument
[the rest of this message can only be followed with 'The Lute' 47
before you, sorry]
As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in
assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed
in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to
be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean
that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open
courses.
I know that the transcription is based on a number of assumptions. As
would be any transcription.
But why on earth would it have to be mixed style? Most chords in ex 3
have unfingered courses. Should we suppose that they should all be
plucked?
There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the first chord
which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted crotchet
followed by a quaver.
All played with downstrokes. Interesting...
In the end, for the harmony it does not make a difference.
In a situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note
values the stroke marks have a dual function. They indicate the
duration of the notes and make the music easier to read. A suitable
notation was not invented overnight. It evolved - and that is true of
notation as a whole not just baroque guitar notation. You are simply
working on the assumption that what the signs mean in later sources
should be interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier.
So, in some occasions the stroke signs are not there to indicate
strokes at all ??
Lex
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I can agree whole heartedly with what Martyn says about a barre. When I
started to learn the guitar at the advanced age of 30 I was astonished
(being a violinist) that such a thing was possible and found it difficult to
do. Now I can do it easily.
It is simply a matter of practice. Anyone who is not willing to make the
effort shouldn't be playing the guitar.
In any case this argument that because stable boys and other amateurs could
only play chords with open courses is the reason why the 5-course guitar
didn't acquire a sixth course much sooner isn't very convincing.
Bartolotti, Corbetta, De Visee and co were not stable boys.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:26 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Dear Lex,
You write below that 'I can assure you that many pupils hate them
('barre' chords) intensely.'
Well some beginners may find them a trouble at first but experience
tells us that practice soon renders them relatively easy: chords like N
P K G are very comfortable under the fingers; perhaps M S are a
little trickier but we've only 5 courses to span not the 6 on the
'modern' guitar. And bear in mind that M is not a million miles from
the ubiquitous D major chord shape on a g lute which some lute players
nowadays seem to struggle with but which the Old Ones used with
abandon.
Martyn
M
--- On Wed, 1/9/10, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 20:49
But Amat is rather pedantic about his
invention, and eager to prove his right.
I don't know what you mean by that.
I was thinking of his report of his meeting with the singers in the
pub. Seems to have been a self-satisfied exraordinary narrow pedantic
guitarist.
What he says is quite simple and
straightforward and works perfectly well in practice. Using a barre
is not that difficult!
I can assure you that many pupils hate them intensely. It is probably
not for nothing that the first seven chords of alfabeto, which are used
the most, have no barre.
Indeed. But if we consider the keys the dances are in, they are
almost all
in G major, G minor, D major, D minor and C major. That seems to
reflect
daily practice.
So..if you are just dancing it doesn't matter what key you
are in.
I thought we were discussing the practice of amateur guitarists. Easy
keys without many barre's make the five-course guitar much more
practical in self-accompaniment than a six-course instrument
[the rest of this message can only be followed with 'The Lute' 47
before you, sorry]
As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in
assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed
in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to
be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean
that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open
courses.
I know that the transcription is based on a number of assumptions. As
would be any transcription.
But why on earth would it have to be mixed style? Most chords in ex 3
have unfingered courses. Should we suppose that they should all be
plucked?
There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the first chord
which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted crotchet
followed by a quaver.
All played with downstrokes. Interesting...
In the end, for the harmony it does not make a difference.
In a situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note
values the stroke marks have a dual function. They indicate the
duration of the notes and make the music easier to read. A suitable
notation was not invented overnight. It evolved - and that is true of
notation as a whole not just baroque guitar notation. You are simply
working on the assumption that what the signs mean in later sources
should be interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier.
So, in some occasions the stroke signs are not there to indicate
strokes at all ??
Lex
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
This is a bit complicated to explain. When there are what appear to be single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether they should be included in the chord or whether they should be played as single notes - assuming that this is actually practical. There are also places where it is obvious that the single note can't be included in the chord and even that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks. It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing the music in the same way as staff notation or whether you regard it as an indication for what the right hand should do. This could bring the discussion a bit further. The implication is that stroke signs could be for strums, even if single notes are concerned. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Sorry - I sent my previous message before I had completed it. Here it is in full. This is a bit complicated to explain. When there are what appear to be single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether they should be included in the chord or whether they should be played as single notes - assuming that this is actually practical. There are also places where it is obvious that the single note can't be included in the chord and even that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks. It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing the music in the same way as staff notation does or whether you regard it as an indication for what the right hand should do. One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente detta la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked the passing notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the first line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. These can't actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G can't!). Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all with upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes with the thumb. The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. I hope that makes sense. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:17 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Dear Monica, I'm really not sure you're right when you say below 'And while we are on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark under a single note but it is still a single note.' In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at least part of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN THOUGH the single note is dissonant. Foscarini is a good example of this. as ever, Martyn --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 17:10 Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is, however, who did what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come to us in songs and dances from 1600 - 1620, is predominantly very stereotype. It is what happened to be published. This is to say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least] originally used to give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This was most likely also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from Italy. Feel free to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but it would be helpful to know the sources. We should indeed use our imagination, but how far should that go? It would be interesting to know your sources. The only printed guitar book with dances to have survived from before 1620 is Montesardo, although there are some manuscripts. How many of these have you seen? Nobody is speculating about fantastic harmonic experiments. Just suggesting that there are ways of getting round some of the more obvious problems of combining a strummed accompaniement with a bass line. The one source which I have to hand is Sanseverino's songbook from 1616 - which I doubt whether you have seen or Alex Dean. Most of the songs in it are part songs and at least Sanseverino's (and he was a guitarist) way of dealing with a 4-3 suspension seems intentional and works in practice. I may bring to mind my 'dissonance' article (also in The Lute 47) in which I give the example of the manuscript of Pedruil (c.1614), with all kinds of extra notes added. As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open courses. There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the first chord which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted crotchet followed by a quaver. The point is that in very early sources they were experimenting with ways of indicating the rhythm and the duration of the notes as well as just indicating the chords and the direction of the strums. In a situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note values the stroke marks have a dual function. They
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente detta la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked the passing notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the first line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. These can't actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G can't!). Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all with upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes with the thumb. The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. Another example, the opening of the Aria di Firenze on p. 16, may make things even more clear. Foscarini seems to imply to turn back to the M2+ in between the melody notes (the melody would be 3-2-3-5-3-5 on the first string). It could as well be interpreted as a single strummed line, without returning to the full chords at the 3's, which is rather awkward. It is not exactly what he says in his rules, but there are more incongruences. Whether the thumb should be involved is an open question (I think not). Foscarini gives single notes with a stroke sign, at ornamental notes, added to an alfabeto chord (as a 4-3 on chord I, for example). The most obvious explanation would be to repeat the chord together with the note. This is what I assumed at the second chord of ex. 5 in my article. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. Another example, the opening of the Aria di Firenze on p. 16, may make things even more clear. Foscarini seems to imply to turn back to the M2+ in between the melody notes (the melody would be 3-2-3-5-3-5 on the first string). It could as well be interpreted as a single strummed line, without returning to the full chords at the 3's, which is rather awkward. It is not exactly what he says in his rules, but there are more incongruences. Whether the thumb should be involved is an open question (I think not). This is an important point - because he does often indicate that up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very practical - I have tried it. Foscarini gives single notes with a stroke sign, at ornamental notes, added to an alfabeto chord (as a 4-3 on chord I, for example). The most obvious explanation would be to repeat the chord together with the note. This is a separate issue and really you could either play the note single or include it in the chord as you repeat it. It is a matter of personal choice. This is what I assumed at the second chord of ex. 5 in my article. The problem there is that you are introducing the fourth after the chord rather than inserting it into the chord - so it is not comparable with what Foscarini does - which is to introduce the 4th and then resolve it. There seems to me to be no obvious reason to include the 5th and 1st courses in the following chord either. It makes no sense when strummed. Pedruil is interesting because it does seem to be a very early example of experimenting with the mixed style. Monica Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I don't know Foscarini's music, but I can say a few things about the thumb in general. There's nothing more or less impractical about using the thumb than any other finger. It's a matter of practice. One can use the thumb for rapid linear passages with up/down strokes on single strings, or with down stroke + slur on single strings. Flamenco playing relies on thumb techniques quite a bit. There I go again, injecting modern music and technique into the discussion. But how can a modern person play las Jacaras and*not* think about Flamenco? See the following ... [1]http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html -- Christina Pluhar with Pepe Habichuela (one of the world's premier flamenco artists). Whether you like or approve of what they're doing, the collaboration (what little of it finally occurs) is obvious. And you might get a view of some thumb work in action. Here's a clip that shows some flamenco thumb technique. [2]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo -pulgar In no way am I suggesting this is an appropriate technique for the Baroque guitar. But it shows how elaborate the thumb can be -- if you make it to the end of the clip you'll see some awesome upstrokes in action. How much of flamenco technique has a direct line to the Baroque? I have no idea whether the study has been done. If not, it should be. I can say that rasgueados I learned in a Baroque guitar class are not far removed from rasgueados used in Flamenco. Also, many Flamenco song forms rely on the hemiola that's so prevalent in the Spanish Baroque dances. (I would expecially love to see a study of the Jacaras... Is the oriental mode used as a way to poke fun at an ethnic group? The song is supposed to be humorous, and about the woes and tribulations of some poor schleb, isn't it? And it's very similar to Las Bularias... the name coming from burlar, or to joke.) I digress. If you're saying that the upstrokes Foscarini indicates are not practical in his specific context, that may be true. I don't know that music. But my inclination would be to try and take them literally and see if I wind up learning a new technique. I'll say it over and over again... the right hand is far more important than the left. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk ... This is an important point - because he does often indicate that up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very practical - I have tried it. -- References 1. http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html 2. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo-pulgar To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Maybe I didn't make it to the end of the video clip but it seemed he was using the thumb only to do very rapid passages in down strokes. What may be more to the point is that it was standard lute technique to play elaborate passages of single notes alternating the thumb with the first finger. As Foscarini was a lutenist he may have had this in mind. But if that is what he is indicating in the Corrente he is using the stroke marks in the tablature to indicate a specific type of pizzicato technique rather than strumming. Given that the rest of the tablature is rather chaotic and inconsistent this seems a bit unlikely especially as in the context there is no advantage to doing it in that way. Interestingly Bartolotti, in the Ciaccona in his first book (p.50) has indicated that a short variation should be played in this way - but again - he is indicating a pizzicato technique using a different notational device. As far as the Villano is concerned - I can't imagine why anyone should want to play it like that - today or in the past. But I suppose I am a stick in the mud Old Fogey. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance I don't know Foscarini's music, but I can say a few things about the thumb in general. There's nothing more or less impractical about using the thumb than any other finger. It's a matter of practice. One can use the thumb for rapid linear passages with up/down strokes on single strings, or with down stroke + slur on single strings. Flamenco playing relies on thumb techniques quite a bit. There I go again, injecting modern music and technique into the discussion. But how can a modern person play las Jacaras and*not* think about Flamenco? See the following ... [1]http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html -- Christina Pluhar with Pepe Habichuela (one of the world's premier flamenco artists). Whether you like or approve of what they're doing, the collaboration (what little of it finally occurs) is obvious. And you might get a view of some thumb work in action. Here's a clip that shows some flamenco thumb technique. [2]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo -pulgar In no way am I suggesting this is an appropriate technique for the Baroque guitar. But it shows how elaborate the thumb can be -- if you make it to the end of the clip you'll see some awesome upstrokes in action. How much of flamenco technique has a direct line to the Baroque? I have no idea whether the study has been done. If not, it should be. I can say that rasgueados I learned in a Baroque guitar class are not far removed from rasgueados used in Flamenco. Also, many Flamenco song forms rely on the hemiola that's so prevalent in the Spanish Baroque dances. (I would expecially love to see a study of the Jacaras... Is the oriental mode used as a way to poke fun at an ethnic group? The song is supposed to be humorous, and about the woes and tribulations of some poor schleb, isn't it? And it's very similar to Las Bularias... the name coming from burlar, or to joke.) I digress. If you're saying that the upstrokes Foscarini indicates are not practical in his specific context, that may be true. I don't know that music. But my inclination would be to try and take them literally and see if I wind up learning a new technique. I'll say it over and over again... the right hand is far more important than the left. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk ... This is an important point - because he does often indicate that up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very practical - I have tried it. -- References 1. http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html 2. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo-pulgar To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Dear Monica, I'm not sure I agree with you about the Foscarini example: the notes after the opening M3 chord can be included as part of a strum with a bit of care; similarly those after the G chord (which is the answering phrase to the opening). I think it's a question of accepting a passing dissonance which, as I believe you also pointed out some time ago, seems to be a hallmark of much of this music. Martyn --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 8:58 Sorry - I sent my previous message before I had completed it. Here it is in full. This is a bit complicated to explain. When there are what appear to be single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether they should be included in the chord or whether they should be played as single notes - assuming that this is actually practical. There are also places where it is obvious that the single note can't be included in the chord and even that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks. It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing the music in the same way as staff notation does or whether you regard it as an indication for what the right hand should do. One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente detta la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked the passing notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the first line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. These can't actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G can't!). Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all with upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes with the thumb. The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. I hope that makes sense. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl; Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:17 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Dear Monica, I'm really not sure you're right when you say below 'And while we are on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark under a single note but it is still a single note.' In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at least part of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN THOUGH the single note is dissonant. Foscarini is a good example of this. as ever, Martyn --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: Lex Eisenhardt [7]eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 17:10 Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is, however, who did what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come to us in songs and dances from 1600 - 1620, is predominantly very stereotype. It is what happened to be published. This is to say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least] originally used to give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This was most likely also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from Italy. Feel free to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but it would be helpful to know the sources. We should indeed use our imagination, but how far should that go? It would be interesting to know your sources. The only printed guitar book with dances to have survived from before 1620 is Montesardo, although there are some manuscripts. How many of these have you seen? Nobody is speculating about fantastic harmonic experiments. Just suggesting that there are ways of getting round some of the more obvious problems of combining a strummed accompaniement with a bass line. The one source which I have to hand is Sanseverino's songbook from 1616 - which I doubt whether you have seen or Alex Dean. Most of the songs in it are part songs and at least Sanseverino's (and he was a
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
You can find a tablature edition of a fairly large selection of Foscarini's pieces on my page at [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com It includes the pieces we have mentioned. Monica --- Original Message - From: [2]Chris Despopoulos To: [3]Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Is there an edition of these pieces that I could easily see? I'd be interested to try and get my hands around this example myself... Or do I have to make a purchase? I don't know Foscarini at all, so maybe it's time for me to branch out of Spain... cud __ From: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 9:46:03 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Maybe I didn't make it to the end of the video clip but it seemed he was using the thumb only to do very rapid passages in down strokes. What may be more to the point is that it was standard lute technique to play elaborate passages of single notes alternating the thumb with the first finger. As Foscarini was a lutenist he may have had this in mind. But if that is what he is indicating in the Corrente he is using the stroke marks in the tablature to indicate a specific type of pizzicato technique rather than strumming. Given that the rest of the tablature is rather chaotic and inconsistent this seems a bit unlikely especially as in the context there is no advantage to doing it in that way. Interestingly Bartolotti, in the Ciaccona in his first book (p.50) has indicated that a short variation should be played in this way - but again - he is indicating a pizzicato technique using a different notational device. As far as the Villano is concerned - I can't imagine why anyone should want to play it like that - today or in the past. But I suppose I am a stick in the mud Old Fogey. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Vihuelalist [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance I don't know Foscarini's music, but I can say a few things about the thumb in general. There's nothing more or less impractical about using the thumb than any other finger. It's a matter of practice. One can use the thumb for rapid linear passages with up/down strokes on single strings, or with down stroke + slur on single strings. Flamenco playing relies on thumb techniques quite a bit. There I go again, injecting modern music and technique into the discussion. But how can a modern person play las Jacaras and*not* think about Flamenco? See the following ... [1][8]http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html -- Christina Pluhar with Pepe Habichuela (one of the world's premier flamenco artists). Whether you like or approve of what they're doing, the collaboration (what little of it finally occurs) is obvious. And you might get a view of some thumb work in action. Here's a clip that shows some flamenco thumb technique. [2][9]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-pouced edo -pulgar In no way am I suggesting this is an appropriate technique for the Baroque guitar. But it shows how elaborate the thumb can be -- if you make it to the end of the clip you'll see some awesome upstrokes in action. How much of flamenco technique has a direct line to the Baroque? I have no idea whether the study has been done. If not, it should be. I can say that rasgueados I learned in a Baroque guitar class are not far removed from rasgueados used in Flamenco. Also, many Flamenco song forms rely on the hemiola that's so prevalent in the Spanish Baroque dances. (I would expecially love to see a study of the Jacaras... Is the oriental mode used as a way to poke fun at an ethnic group? The song is supposed to be humorous, and about the woes and tribulations of some poor schleb, isn't it? And it's very similar to Las Bularias... the name coming from burlar, or to joke.) I digress. If you're saying that the upstrokes Foscarini indicates are not practical in his specific context, that may be true. I don't know that music. But my inclination would be to try and take them literally and see if I wind up learning a new technique. I'll say it over and over again... the right hand is far more important than the left. cud __
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I'm afraid I don't agree. It is physically possible to hold Chord M and play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and play the 4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret. The 5th course stopped at the 3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply be repeating Chord G. On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the first fret whilst holding Chord B. There are some problems following Chord N on line 4 as well. I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style. What Corbetta says in 1639 is very relevant here... Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the stroke marks, these are all intended to be played on the first course [canto] only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so that it is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter. In this way it seems to me to create a better and more delicate effect. In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st course between chords - because the music is all in alfabeto but it applies more generally. You wouldn't repeat the chord against every passing note in any other circumstances. What is the point of doing it here. There is a clear melodic line - it creates a better and more delicate effect as Corbetta says. MOnica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:18 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Dear Monica, I'm not sure I agree with you about the Foscarini example: the notes after the opening M3 chord can be included as part of a strum with a bit of care; similarly those after the G chord (which is the answering phrase to the opening). I think it's a question of accepting a passing dissonance which, as I believe you also pointed out some time ago, seems to be a hallmark of much of this music. Martyn --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 8:58 Sorry - I sent my previous message before I had completed it. Here it is in full. This is a bit complicated to explain. When there are what appear to be single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether they should be included in the chord or whether they should be played as single notes - assuming that this is actually practical. There are also places where it is obvious that the single note can't be included in the chord and even that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks. It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing the music in the same way as staff notation does or whether you regard it as an indication for what the right hand should do. One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente detta la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked the passing notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the first line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. These can't actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G can't!). Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all with upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes with the thumb. The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. I hope that makes sense. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl; Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:17 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance Dear Monica, I'm really not sure you're right when you say below 'And while we are on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is a contradicition in terms. They may put a strum mark under a single note but it is still a single note.' In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at least part of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN THOUGH the single note is dissonant. Foscarini is a good example of this. as ever, Martyn --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance To: Lex Eisenhardt [7]eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Ok... I have played through the Corrente dette la Favorita, and by and large I agree with Monica. Where I don't agree is when she says: One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente detta la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars. He has marked the passing notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the first line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. These can't actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G can't!). I agree with the above, but not the following... Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 is all with upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes with the thumb. The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play the notes. They have a musical significance but no practical use. I find it most sensible to alternate between the thumb and index for these single notes, using the thumb for the typical down-beat of the note, and the index finger for the up-beat. In other words, I'm thinking of my hand going up and down in 8th notes, and grab the indicated notes where they fall in this strumming motion. So I would say, M3-i-p-i | M3-M3-M3 | G-i-p-i | G-G-B-B | ... As I understand it is with the lute, and I know it is when playing Chancy's tablatures on the mandore, the up-stroke on a single note is very important because it's to be weaker when compared to a down-stroke. And these are to be alternated in relation to the rhythmic structure of the piece. So why would it be different on the guitar, unless the situation makes it strictly impossible -- something I would be surprised to find in as charming a piece as this one. An added thing I found in trying the piece out... It pays to hold the chord as long as possible, even when playing the single note passages. But sometimes it pays to let go and prepare for an upcoming passage. AND, I found a place where an upstroke of the thumb makes perfect sense! If I say P is a down-stroke of the thumb, and p is an up-stroke of the thumb, I play the following in measure 9... D-p-ma-p | H-G-O. I play the D as a rasgueado, strumming on the backs of my nails, and the ma is pretty much the same thing with only two fingers. Also, I let go of the D chord as I play the ma, and with the following thumb upstroke my left hand is already playing the barre for the upcoming H. All of that happened rather quickly, and the right hand just sort of fell into place that way. Whew... Sorry if this is over the top. For me the bottom line is maintaining the strumming sensation, in my mind, and in my hands as much as possible. Which gets to Monica's last statement... The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play. True, but they do have a practical use if they keep you oriented in the pulse of the music. Thanks for pointing to a lovely piece. If I can get the transition from the N7 to the M+5 in measure 26, I'll add it to my regular bag of tricks. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 10:57:52 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance I'm afraid I don't agree. It is physically possible to hold Chord M and play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and play the 4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret. The 5th course stopped at the 3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply be repeating Chord G. On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the first fret whilst holding Chord B. There are some problems following Chord N on line 4 as well. I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style. What Corbetta says in 1639 is very relevant here... Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the stroke marks, these are all intended to be played on the first course [canto] only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so that it is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter. In this way it seems to me to create a better and more delicate effect. In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st course between chords - because the music is all in alfabeto but it applies more generally. You wouldn't repeat the chord against every passing note in any other circumstances. What is the point of doing it here. There is a clear melodic line - it creates a better and more delicate effect as Corbetta says. MOnica
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Dear baroque guitarists, I just am so happy that the life to us, lutenists, is so much simpler than it seems to be to you! Not too much trouble with the bourdons and octaves. ;-) And we have more or less the basses there, too. Happy playing and strumming! :) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Foscarini gives single notes with a stroke sign, at ornamental notes, added to an alfabeto chord (as a 4-3 on chord I, for example). The most obvious explanation would be to repeat the chord together with the note. This is a separate issue and really you could either play the note single or include it in the chord as you repeat it. It is a matter of personal choice. This is what I assumed at the second chord of ex. 5 in my article. The problem there is that you are introducing the fourth after the chord rather than inserting it into the chord - so it is not comparable with what Foscarini does - which is to introduce the 4th and then resolve it. There seems to me to be no obvious reason to include the 5th and 1st courses in the following chord either. It makes no sense when strummed. Pedruil is interesting because it does seem to be a very early example of experimenting with the mixed style. Monica Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
[the message from one minute ago was caused by a self -willed mouse, please ignore] This is an important point - because he does often indicate that up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very practical - I have tried it. In this context? How does he indicate that? The problem there is that you are introducing the fourth after the chord rather than inserting it into the chord - so it is not comparable with what Foscarini does - which is to introduce the 4th and then resolve it Foscarini does that all the time. Pedruil is interesting because it does seem to be a very early example of experimenting with the mixed style. I see no good reason Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
