[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Stephen Stubbs, while we were playing through some Kapsberger songs, suggested that these dissonances were meant to be. The one I recall the most was a G major in the alfabeto against a g minor in the written continuo. Well - I think he is wrong!!! Simply - whoever added the alfabeto did so just adding whatever chord fitted the bass note without taking into account the voice parts. As I said in an earlier message.. I don't know if you read Martin Shepherd's article about Dalza in Lute News 89 but he has demonstrated clearly that there are a lot of misprints in the relevant printed book. It is not enough to play any old nonsense because it appears in a 500 year old source. In my experience a lot of so-called experts don't know very much about how music was printed etc... There are songs with only text and alfabeto, no bass, no melody...can't quite remember just now who it was. There are lots of sources which include the lyrics only of the songs, some of which have alfabeto - but this doesn't indicate that they are specifically to be accompanied on the guitar. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Oh dear me no - can't agree here either. He's simply leaving as many options open as possible. What he avoids saying (except by implication on the title page), is his preferred method of performance; mine, as already said, is with theorbo with voice for songs and theorbo with violin for ritornelli which I believe was probably his too. Where doesn't the bass fit the alfabeto? Are you sure it's not just the same sort of situation we don't agree in Il Verno (ie uses an Fmaj chord to accompant an apparent Dm harmony but in figured bass speak is simply the v common 65 chord) yrs ttcod Martyn --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 17:53 I just don't agree with you that the bass part in Marini 1622 is never to be played when the guitar strums alfabeto - P.S. What Marini himself says is Note that in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while by paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances. Which to me at least suggest that he didn't expect the guitar to play with the bass line. And there are places where the alfabeto doesn't fit the bass. Monica in haste Ditto to you about not reading emails - see what I wrote about using a tiorba. You are also wrong in not considering the tiorba a 'bass instrument'; - by bass instrument I don't think the Old Ones automatically thought - aha! - this means a bowed bass! Pip! pip! Martyn --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 12:41 Hello Martyn Well - I prefer an F maj chord here not only because it is what M (or whoever) plainly indicates in the alfabeto but also because it provides a more effective combination with the upper vocal D to give a 65 chord without weakening the effect by unecessarily doubling the harmony on the guitar - I think this is what the 'arranger' had in mind. I think you are guilty of not reading what I have said! Which is that - I do not think that the guitar alfabeto is to be played with the bass part in the Marini songs. The alfabeto is irrelevant. The voice part and bass part together imply - in modern academic speak - the 1st inversion of the minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale. That is what I would play (and repeat if pressed) if accompanying the piece on the keyboard or on the theorbo if I had one and knew how to play it. Imposing a the minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale onto the root of the dominant creates an even better dissonance than an F major chord. A chord of the dominant 9th with a 4-3 suspension to be precise rather than a measly dominant 7th. Since the F chord is either played with a vocal D or a transient bass G I can't agree the music is poorer because it 'moves into the major mode sooner' (in any case, to be fair to the numerous composers who used the unadorned sequence Subdom, Dom, Tonic there's nothing 'wrong' with this simple cadential formula). In a minor key - this piece is in C minor - the triad on the subdominant has a minor 3rd. The guitar chord is not going to be imposed on the not so transient G in the bass (it lasts thoughout the whole bar!) - if I am playing it because I wont be including a G in the chord or employing a bass player of any sort! There's no general(NB) prohibition against employing a bass instrument (tiorba, bowed bass, etc) with a strummed guitar to play an independent melodic bass line if one is written (especially if it has some interest as in Il Verno). Again you haven't read what I have been saying. I don't think that it is in keeping with what was considered to be stylistically appropriate when accompanying these songs. I don't know about general
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Dear Monica, Well, here I can certainly agree with you: Gmin with Gmaj seems crackers. But out of interest could you give me the specific example quoted? Are we sure it's not S Stubbs thinking it ought to be Gm? rgds Martyn --- On Thu, 28/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) To: Dominic Robillard ubaldrosa...@hotmail.de Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 28 April, 2011, 10:46 Stephen Stubbs, while we were playing through some Kapsberger songs, suggested that these dissonances were meant to be. The one I recall the most was a G major in the alfabeto against a g minor in the written continuo. Well - I think he is wrong!!! Simply - whoever added the alfabeto did so just adding whatever chord fitted the bass note without taking into account the voice parts. As I said in an earlier message.. I don't know if you read Martin Shepherd's article about Dalza in Lute News 89 but he has demonstrated clearly that there are a lot of misprints in the relevant printed book. It is not enough to play any old nonsense because it appears in a 500 year old source. In my experience a lot of so-called experts don't know very much about how music was printed etc... There are songs with only text and alfabeto, no bass, no melody...can't quite remember just now who it was. There are lots of sources which include the lyrics only of the songs, some of which have alfabeto - but this doesn't indicate that they are specifically to be accompanied on the guitar. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
On Apr 25, 2011, at 10:47 PM, Monica Hall wrote: You should play 4 down/up/down/up strokes on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd courses and 2 - down/up on the 4th/5th. That's assuming that Corbetta himself has not got in a muddle. Hope that helps. Thanks for semi-clearing this up. Well, at least the down/up part makes sense and that was the way I was doing it. It is often confusing in these old sources as to what is top and high and up and down, for example up the neck Going from top (in pitch) down might take some getting used to, for me, as I've been playing it the other way. It doesn't make musical sense to me either. Since the fingering change happens on what we call the 4th and 5th courses, what would be the point of putting those changes on the first beat of the bar if you were not playing them until the 5th strum? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/ 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
