[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar culture and habits?
I'm reminded of the engraving of a riot/melee between those who support use of the nails and those who do not. Face it... Guitarists are a weird bunch. How to you get a guitarists to be quiet? Hand him some sheet music. What do you call a guitarist who broke up with his girlfriend? Homeless. How many guitarists does it take to change a light bulb? 10... One to change it and nine to say "I could have done that better." cud __ From: wikla To: Vihuelalist Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 5:10 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar culture and habits? Dear "flat back lutenists", I just read: >> I did :-) And I don't understand your edition. > Perhaps you need to go back to school and learn some more counterpoint. Here we go again! Dear baroque guitarists, why cannot you be friends supporting and adding up each others' brilliant ideas - as we lutenists do (or are we really?) - instead of fighting of every 7th and its resolution, and every borduna/ocave in stringing? Is this actually a phenomenon of (modern) "classical" guitar culture brought to b-guitar world, too? I still remember my old guitarring times, when I was very "Yepesian" and was fighting against the "Segovians", who were fighting against us. Something similiar here? To me we "round back lutenists" are much more liberal (well, at least relatively, compared to b-guitarists) in accepting different ways of making our music and stringing our instruments, etc. What could be the explanation? Is the 5 course guitar really so critical a vehicle, or does the Segovian - not Segovian (or Sor-Guiliani?) contradiction affect still the guitarists converted from modern guitar to baroque guitar? Positively, Arto PS I suppose the 5 course guitar was actually an extremely free and wild instrument - used "as is" and "as wished" here and there by good and bad players. I would recommend anything goes. Don't be too clever, play and strum interestingly... I guess that is most "authentic"... ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Baroque guitar culture and habits?
Dear "flat back lutenists", I just read: >> I did :-) And I don't understand your edition. > Perhaps you need to go back to school and learn some more counterpoint. Here we go again! Dear baroque guitarists, why cannot you be friends supporting and adding up each others' brilliant ideas - as we lutenists do (or are we really?) - instead of fighting of every 7th and its resolution, and every borduna/ocave in stringing? Is this actually a phenomenon of (modern) "classical" guitar culture brought to b-guitar world, too? I still remember my old guitarring times, when I was very "Yepesian" and was fighting against the "Segovians", who were fighting against us. Something similiar here? To me we "round back lutenists" are much more liberal (well, at least relatively, compared to b-guitarists) in accepting different ways of making our music and stringing our instruments, etc. What could be the explanation? Is the 5 course guitar really so critical a vehicle, or does the Segovian - not Segovian (or Sor-Guiliani?) contradiction affect still the guitarists converted from modern guitar to baroque guitar? Positively, Arto PS I suppose the 5 course guitar was actually an extremely free and wild instrument - used "as is" and "as wished" here and there by good and bad players. I would recommend anything goes. Don't be too clever, play and strum interestingly... I guess that is most "authentic"... ;-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Correct according to what reference. The fact that you constantly refer to "inversions" of chords indicates that you think in terms of 19ct. harmony. There are different ways of referring to these things, and different ways of trying to explain to other people what you mean in a way that they will understand. in consonant movements. So, a dissonance needs to be properly prepared as well as properly resolved. I am well aware of this and all the parts in my example are prepared and resolved correctly according to the rules of counterpoint. Your 7th in measure 4 just dissapears. No it doesn't. It moves via the G to the E in the final chord - a perfectly acceptable resolution F G E. It doesn't have to fall immediately - it can make a melodic detour to another note in the chord en route. And the 5 of the <56> over f in measure 3 is considered a dissonance and needs to resolve as well (all resolutions must progress downwards). Which it does at the cadence - it is repeated and becomes a suspended 4th over the G in the bass and then falls to B natural at the cadence.Its resolution is simply delayed.Otherwise the suspended 4th will be unprepared. The point at issue is - what is the first chord you would play in the penultimate bar over the G in the bass? Given just the top and the bass. I'd boldly assume an error and play a hemiola: half note eb, half note f, half note g. When I suggested that - I was told that this was trying to iron out things in a Victorian manner! Among other derogatory things! That the combination of an F major chord over G in the bass was typcial of the style! Can't win obviously. There is no "dominant" in the style. And the sevens over the first note of a falling 5th in the bass typically appears as a passing note 8-7. But in this instance the F in the voice part appears out of the blue. There is no falling 5th in the bass. I did :-) And I don't understand your edition. Perhaps you need to go back to school and learn some more counterpoint. What's that (editorial) e-natural doing over an a flat in the continuo? Pretty much out of mode here. The original has only one flat in the key signature. In the original flats have been added to the semibreves but not to the passing crotchet. Arguably according to the rules of musica ficta it could rise a semitone rather than a tone. It is complicated by the fact that the last phrase is unbarred and accidentals are not usually cancelled. The editorial brackets are there to indicate uncertainty. I think the first is more likely than the second but you could hold the whole of the D minor chord over the G and resolve each separate note one by one as in the second version. The second one is so far of any compositional conventions of the 17 century (harmonic speed, thesis/arsis placement of harmonic changes etc.) that I won't comment on it. Well I am glad you think so - because the reason for all this is because it was being suggested that an F major chord should be played over the bass note G - a proposition which I think is unlikely. It just goes to show that no-one really knows what the compositional conventions of 17th century really were. Cheers Monica - Original Message - From: "R. Mattes" To: "Monica Hall" ; "David van Ooijen" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:51 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) > On Wed, 11 May 2011 15:43:48 +0100, Monica Hall wrote >> Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on >> my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the >> list. >> >> Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. > > Hello, > > where do these figurs come from - the original print? This looks > like Edward Elgar on mind-altering drugs. If this is Marini that > man should have taken some introductory counterpoint class :-) > > Cheers, RalfD > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
On Wed, 11 May 2011 17:37:33 +0100, Monica Hall wrote > There are no figures in the original - That's what I feared. > these are added by me to > define the harmony and they are correct. (The programme I use won't > put them one on top of the other). The voice part and bass part are > as in the original. Correct according to what reference. The fact that you constantly refer to "inversions" of chords indicates that you think in terms of 19ct. harmony. This is at least problematic in the contoext of (early) 17ct. music (well, it's even problematic for mid-18ct music). Gereralizing: 17ct sonorities can and should be thought of as the resultr of certain linear movements. All disonances are the result of a temporal displacement of voices progressing in consonant movements. So, a dissonance needs to be properly prepared as well as properly resolved. Your 7th in measure 4 just dissapears. And the 5 of the <56> over f in measure 3 is considered a dissonance and needs to resolve as well (all resolutions must progress downwards). > The point at issue is - what is > the first chord you would play in the penultimate bar over the G in the > bass? Given just the top and the bass. I'd boldly assume an error and play a hemiola: half note eb, half note f, half note g. > The C and F in the voice part are the dominant 7th and the > suspended 4th held over from the previous 6/5 chord - and the D is > also held over from the previous chord and becomes part of the next > chord the dominant chord. There is no "dominant" in the style. And the sevens over the first note of a falling 5th in the bass typically appears as a passing note 8-7 > You need to play the two examples to understand how they work. I did :-) And I don't understand your edition. What's that (editorial) e-natural doing over an a flat in the continuo? Pretty much out of mode here. Come on, this is just a simple little tune in first mode. > I > think the first is more likely than the second but you could hold > the whole of the D minor chord over the G and resolve each separate > note one by one as in the second version. The second one is so far of any compositional conventions of the 17 century (harmonic speed, thesis/arsis placement of harmonic changes etc.) that I won't comment on it. Cheers, RalfD > Monica > > - Original Message - > From: "R. Mattes" > To: "Monica Hall" ; "David van Ooijen" > > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:51 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) > > > On Wed, 11 May 2011 15:43:48 +0100, Monica Hall wrote > >> Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on > >> my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the > >> list. > >> > >> Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. > > > > Hello, > > > > where do these figurs come from - the original print? This looks > > like Edward Elgar on mind-altering drugs. If this is Marini that > > man should have taken some introductory counterpoint class :-) > > > > Cheers, RalfD > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
There are no figures in the original - these are added by me to define the harmony and they are correct. (The programme I use won't put them one on top of the other). The voice part and bass part are as in the original. The point at issue is - what is the first chord you would play in the penultimate bar over the G in the bass? The C and F in the voice part are the dominant 7th and the suspended 4th held over from the previous 6/5 chord - and the D is also held over from the previous chord and becomes part of the next chord the dominant chord. You need to play the two examples to understand how they work. I think the first is more likely than the second but you could hold the whole of the D minor chord over the G and resolve each separate note one by one as in the second version. Monica - Original Message - From: "R. Mattes" To: "Monica Hall" ; "David van Ooijen" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:51 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) On Wed, 11 May 2011 15:43:48 +0100, Monica Hall wrote Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the list. Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. Hello, where do these figurs come from - the original print? This looks like Edward Elgar on mind-altering drugs. If this is Marini that man should have taken some introductory counterpoint class :-) Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
On Wed, 11 May 2011 15:43:48 +0100, Monica Hall wrote > Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on > my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the > list. > > Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. Hello, where do these figurs come from - the original print? This looks like Edward Elgar on mind-altering drugs. If this is Marini that man should have taken some introductory counterpoint class :-) Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the list. Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. Monica - Original Message - From: "David van Ooijen" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" ; "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 3:05 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) On 11 May 2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: The alfabeto is misleading. As ever Which is a good summary of the discussion. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
On 11 May 2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: > The alfabeto is misleading. > As ever Which is a good summary of the discussion. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Well - I'm not sure that there is any point in reviving this discussion - especially as I disagree with most of what you say. But for what it is worth... 1. I can find no prohibition to employing an instrument to play the bass line alone even when the guitar is used to play the alfabeto. If you mean by this that another instrument could play just the bass line without filling in the harmony - there may be no prohibition but there is no indication either that this is what Marini intended. Indeed, Marini's note below (yr trans) seems to me to directly allow such a possibility However, I think you believe this note means that no other instrument should ever play if the guitar plays alfabeto - I beg to differ. What it suggests to me is that he has provided alternative accompaniments. Otherwise in order to accommodate the different instruments he would have had to provided a simpler bass line. The idea was that the singer accompanied themselves in this repertoire - not that there was a group of continuo players. Here is the quote again - for reference. "Note that in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while by paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the other, since the guitar lacks manyproper consonances." 2. A good case of this is that one we've already considered in Il verno where we both agree there is an F6/5 chord (you use different terminology and call it the first inversion of a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - Dm7). However I see nothing 'wrong' with just playing a plain Fmaj chord (alfabeto G) against the d in the voice to give the overall 6/5 chord Nor do I if the guitar is the only accompanying instrument. whereas, if I understand you correctly, you think the alfabeto is incorrect and the guitarist should play a Dm chord (or Dm7 if the Marini's alfabeto allowed such). No - I don't think that. What I disagree with is the idea that the guitar should play an F major chord against the G in the bass. I think it is essential to include a D in the chord over the G bass because this defines it as a dominant chord. And probably omit the A which is the dominant 9th. (I'll send you my transcription separately). Finally, re your comment about the closing bars of of "Desio di sguardi" on p.10: you write 'At both cadences the 4-3 suspension in the guitar part comes before the bass line has arrived at the root of the chord.' This is just a similar situation as in Il verno - It isn't the same. In "Il verno" the bass line arrives at the root of the dominant before the 4-3 suspension in the guitar part. In "Desio si guardi" the guitar introduces the 4-3 suspension before the bass has arrived at the root of the dominant chord to which it belongs. There are several places where this happens. They are not meant to be played together. But please note that if the guitar played alfabeto I would not expect the bass to be realised (ie harmony filled out) so the intrusive Eb (I presume this is what you particularly object to) would not appear... but as I have said already there is no reason to think that just playing the bass line is an option. What you need to consider is how you would realize the bassline if the alfabeto were not there. The alfabeto is misleading. As ever Monica It is not what I object to. I think the 4-3 suspension is a substitution for the the standard progression ii7 V4-3 I regards as ever Martyn -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Dear Monica, On going through my backlog of messages, I see you sent a couple further to our discussion Marini's Scherzi 1622 whilst I was away. In general I think we seem to agree on many points, except: 1. I can find no prohibition to employing an instrument to play the bass line alone even when the guitar is used to play the alfabeto. Indeed, Marini's note below (yr trans) seems to me to directly allow such a possibility by remarking that the restrictions imposed by the stock alfabeto may not always allow the realised bass and guitar chords to be identical (the common 6/5 chords are a particular problem). However, I think you believe this note means that no other instrument should ever play if the guitar plays alfabeto - I beg to differ. "Note that in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while by paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances." 2. A good case of this is that one we've already considered in Il verno where we both agree there is an F6/5 chord (you use different terminology and call it the first inversion of a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - Dm7). However I see nothing 'wrong' with just playing a plain Fmaj chord (alfabeto G) against the d in the voice to give the overall 6/5 chord whereas, if I understand you correctly, you think the alfabeto is incorrect and the guitarist should play a Dm chord (or Dm7 if the Marini's alfabeto allowed such). Finally, re your comment about the closing bars of of "Desio di sguardi" on p.10: you write 'At both cadences the 4-3 suspension in the guitar part comes before the bass line has arrived at the root of the chord.' This is just a similar situation as in Il verno - M (or the jobbing guitarist) simply didn't have the alfabeto available (as he tells us). But please note that if the guitar played alfabeto I would not expect the bass to be realised (ie harmony filled out) so the intrusive Eb (I presume this is what you particularly object to) would not appear... regards as ever Martyn -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
