[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
Dear Monica, As far as I can see, the evidence from extant instruments seems to be that slotted bridges were often employed in the 17th century, especially by French makers; Italian makers seemingly preferring a bridge with individual string holes (tho' there are exceptions). Good extant examples include the Rene Voboam of 1641 (Ashmolean) which has a highly and individually decorated bridge in the same style as other decoration on the instrument and thus seems to be orginal. Various Alexandre Voboam guitars also have slotted bridges which I believe are orginal (or at least 17th century) since by the 18th century most/all bridges seemed to have string holes. However the picture is far from clear and the waters are further muddied by replacement bridges. One explanation has been that slotted bridges allow more adjustment of string height at the bridge but, in my experience, there is no very significant difference whether tied from the top or bottom of the slot since static forces will always tend to pull the point where the string passes over its own loop to the mid point between top and bottom. A more reasonable explanation it that it increases flexibility of the bridge and thus enhances the bass response. But much speculation all round Martyn --- On Sun, 27/11/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitar bridges To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 27 November, 2011, 19:29 This is just a quick query to everyone who plays the baroque guitar - about bridges. Mine has slots rather than holes which the strings pass through when they are tied to the bridge. Is this usual on baroque guitars. Is there any standard arrangement. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
Well, my guitar has holes for the bridge. I can't comment on the historical accuracy of it. In my imagination, I always assumed the use of slots gave you the option to adjust the spacing between strings on a course. Maybe different players had different preferences. Or maybe you needed more or less space to account for different thicknesses of strings (bordones), or tension. You don't want strings slapping against each other. That's the only advantage I could imagine in slots over holes. __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 3:43 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Dear Monica, As far as I can see, the evidence from extant instruments seems to be that slotted bridges were often employed in the 17th century, especially by French makers; Italian makers seemingly preferring a bridge with individual string holes (tho' there are exceptions). Good extant examples include the Rene Voboam of 1641 (Ashmolean) which has a highly and individually decorated bridge in the same style as other decoration on the instrument and thus seems to be orginal. Various Alexandre Voboam guitars also have slotted bridges which I believe are orginal (or at least 17th century) since by the 18th century most/all bridges seemed to have string holes. However the picture is far from clear and the waters are further muddied by replacement bridges. One explanation has been that slotted bridges allow more adjustment of string height at the bridge but, in my experience, there is no very significant difference whether tied from the top or bottom of the slot since static forces will always tend to pull the point where the string passes over its own loop to the mid point between top and bottom. A more reasonable explanation it that it increases flexibility of the bridge and thus enhances the bass response. But much speculation all round Martyn --- On Sun, 27/11/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitar bridges To: Vihuelalist [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 27 November, 2011, 19:29 This is just a quick query to everyone who plays the baroque guitar - about bridges. Mine has slots rather than holes which the strings pass through when they are tied to the bridge. Is this usual on baroque guitars. Is there any standard arrangement. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
Dear Martin That is very helpful and very interesting especially what you say about them improving the bass response. I don't know much about how guitars were constructed and it seems difficult to get detailed and accurate information about them and in particular to find out whether they have been altered. The other question which often crosses my mind is about string lengths. The general view seems to be that 65-67 cms or longer was the norm because most (?) surviving instruments have that sort of string length. Shorter ones have apparently often been cut down - but then why would anyone cut them down? And what about ones which were pitched higher - have none survived? I am just curious to know what other people think about this. We seem to take quite a lot for granted. It would be nice if someone were to write a book surveying all the surviving instruments with measurements and details of changes made to them but I suppose that is asking for rather a lot. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 8:43 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Dear Monica, As far as I can see, the evidence from extant instruments seems to be that slotted bridges were often employed in the 17th century, especially by French makers; Italian makers seemingly preferring a bridge with individual string holes (tho' there are exceptions). Good extant examples include the Rene Voboam of 1641 (Ashmolean) which has a highly and individually decorated bridge in the same style as other decoration on the instrument and thus seems to be orginal. Various Alexandre Voboam guitars also have slotted bridges which I believe are orginal (or at least 17th century) since by the 18th century most/all bridges seemed to have string holes. However the picture is far from clear and the waters are further muddied by replacement bridges. One explanation has been that slotted bridges allow more adjustment of string height at the bridge but, in my experience, there is no very significant difference whether tied from the top or bottom of the slot since static forces will always tend to pull the point where the string passes over its own loop to the mid point between top and bottom. A more reasonable explanation it that it increases flexibility of the bridge and thus enhances the bass response. But much speculation all round Martyn --- On Sun, 27/11/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitar bridges To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 27 November, 2011, 19:29 This is just a quick query to everyone who plays the baroque guitar - about bridges. Mine has slots rather than holes which the strings pass through when they are tied to the bridge. Is this usual on baroque guitars. Is there any standard arrangement. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
Dear Rocky Very interesting again. My slots are square shaped but taper i.e. bigger at the front than at the back. At the rose side the feet go straigtht down onto the table but at other side they end in the bar of the bridge. One disadvantage of the slots which I have found is that they are not very strong. The strings cut into the bridge and were it down - so I had to have it repaired. There are some interesting article on the site you mention - if only there were time to read them. Best Monica - Original Message - From: Rockford Mjos rm...@comcast.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 12:06 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges My cutouts are v-shaped on both sides of the bridge, so there is almost the same gluing surface as a solid lute-type bridge with holes. Dan's vihuela bridge has rectangular cutout through the bridge, and that offered quite a bit less gluing surface. I don't remember if the author of the recent article about the Strad guitar said why he/she thought it was not original -- I can't seem to find any notes about it on my computer. The triangular cutouts may well have been a historical design. I see there is a chapter in The Cambridge Companion to the Guitar (CambridgeUP, 2003) by Stewart Pollen titled Antonio Stradivari and baroque guitar making. Perhaps that is where I picked up the notion. I do not have that book now. I can't speak to the design favoring trebles more than basses. How might that be considered in light of slotted bridges possible use on vihuelas with their range and very different repertoire where a more balanced sound might be preferred? Sinier de Ridder have a PDF on guitar bridge evolution, though they don't completely . http://www.sinier-de-ridder.com/ Perhaps asking your question to the Ning group might get a response from Batov, Sinier or De Ridder or other players. I'm not sure there are any builders active in this forum. -- R On Nov 27, 2011, at 4:14 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Thank you very much for that information - most helpful. I think my slots are rather like yours as far as I can tell. They go right down to the table in front but not at the back. I was given to understand with a slotted bridge the surface area of the bridge in contact with table was much less than with a modern guitar and presumably a lute and that this favoured treble strings at expense of the bass ones. I was wondering whether this kind of bridge is definitely a characteristic of baroque guitars or whether it is just a matter of personal preference. How do we tell whether the bridges of surviving guitars are the originals? It raises quite a few questions for me anyway. Monica - Original Message - From: Rockford Mjos rm...@comcast.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:14 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges My Strad model guitar has triangular cut-outs for strings, with the points going down to the soundboard. I understand that the museum original has this style bridge, though it is not thought to be the original bridge. Personally, I have not been very keen on this style -- I would prefer a solid bridge which I could re-drill to change spacing if I wanted! By slot I assume you mean a rectangular-shaped cutout running between the strings of a course and continuing to the face of the guitar. Batov's Voboam models have this style which can be seen here: http://www.vihuelademano.com/guitars/Voboam/pages2/Voboam-model- baroque-guitar.htm http://www.vihuelademano.com/guitars/Voboam/pages1/A.Voboam1676- guitar.htm Some (at least) of the Barber Harris guitars may have this type of slot -- but the web images do not clearly show bridge details. The Chambure vihuelas by Dan Larson have the slot-style bridge, too. But I do not remember how his baroque guitars are set up. -- R On Nov 27, 2011, at 1:29 PM, Monica Hall wrote: This is just a quick query to everyone who plays the baroque guitar - about bridges. Mine has slots rather than holes which the strings pass through when they are tied to the bridge. Is this usual on baroque guitars. Is there any standard arrangement. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
Maybe a lot to ask, but it would be both valuable and interesting, and certainly is not impossible. As a fan of mandolin going back as far as there have been instruments to carry related names, one of my favorite references is: Morey, Stephen. 1993. Mandolins of the 18th century. Editrice Turris, Cremona. ISBN: 8879290657, 9788879290654. This is exactly the kind of survey you've requested here, but of instruments that were (or were most likely) named similarly to mandolin. It clocks a relatively brief 154 pages. Each chapter has a description of the basic characteristics of each type, and then simply catalogues known instruments in mostly public collections. Exceptions and specific measurements are often noted and there are many useful and professionally executed line drawings. James Tyler (1989, 1993) noted in The Early Mandolin that there were more baroque-era mandolins in collections than full-sized lutes. If it's possible for mandolins, why not guitars? Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:03 AM To: Martyn Hodgson Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Dear Martin That is very helpful and very interesting especially what you say about them improving the bass response. I don't know much about how guitars were constructed and it seems difficult to get detailed and accurate information about them and in particular to find out whether they have been altered. The other question which often crosses my mind is about string lengths. The general view seems to be that 65-67 cms or longer was the norm because most (?) surviving instruments have that sort of string length. Shorter ones have apparently often been cut down - but then why would anyone cut them down? And what about ones which were pitched higher - have none survived? I am just curious to know what other people think about this. We seem to take quite a lot for granted. It would be nice if someone were to write a book surveying all the surviving instruments with measurements and details of changes made to them but I suppose that is asking for rather a lot. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 8:43 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Dear Monica, As far as I can see, the evidence from extant instruments seems to be that slotted bridges were often employed in the 17th century, especially by French makers; Italian makers seemingly preferring a bridge with individual string holes (tho' there are exceptions). Good extant examples include the Rene Voboam of 1641 (Ashmolean) which has a highly and individually decorated bridge in the same style as other decoration on the instrument and thus seems to be orginal. Various Alexandre Voboam guitars also have slotted bridges which I believe are orginal (or at least 17th century) since by the 18th century most/all bridges seemed to have string holes. However the picture is far from clear and the waters are further muddied by replacement bridges. One explanation has been that slotted bridges allow more adjustment of string height at the bridge but, in my experience, there is no very significant difference whether tied from the top or bottom of the slot since static forces will always tend to pull the point where the string passes over its own loop to the mid point between top and bottom. A more reasonable explanation it that it increases flexibility of the bridge and thus enhances the bass response. But much speculation all round Martyn --- On Sun, 27/11/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitar bridges To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 27 November, 2011, 19:29 This is just a quick query to everyone who plays the baroque guitar - about bridges. Mine has slots rather than holes which the strings pass through when they are tied to the bridge. Is this usual on baroque guitars. Is there any standard arrangement. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
This is exactly the kind of survey you've requested here, but of instruments that were (or were most likely) named similarly to mandolin. It clocks a relatively brief 154 pages. Each chapter has a description of the basic characteristics of each type, and then simply catalogues known instruments in mostly public collections. Exceptions and specific measurements are often noted and there are many useful and professionally executed line drawings. Exactly - now who will volunteer to write it. James Tyler (1989, 1993) noted in The Early Mandolin that there were more baroque-era mandolins in collections than full-sized lutes. If it's possible for mandolins, why not guitars? I feel sure that there are far more guitars in historic collections than lutes. Partly because they continued to be used after the mid 18th century and were often converted to six single strings. That would make quite a major undertaking to list them all I suppose. Monica Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:03 AM To: Martyn Hodgson Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Dear Martin That is very helpful and very interesting especially what you say about them improving the bass response. I don't know much about how guitars were constructed and it seems difficult to get detailed and accurate information about them and in particular to find out whether they have been altered. The other question which often crosses my mind is about string lengths. The general view seems to be that 65-67 cms or longer was the norm because most (?) surviving instruments have that sort of string length. Shorter ones have apparently often been cut down - but then why would anyone cut them down? And what about ones which were pitched higher - have none survived? I am just curious to know what other people think about this. We seem to take quite a lot for granted. It would be nice if someone were to write a book surveying all the surviving instruments with measurements and details of changes made to them but I suppose that is asking for rather a lot. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 8:43 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Dear Monica, As far as I can see, the evidence from extant instruments seems to be that slotted bridges were often employed in the 17th century, especially by French makers; Italian makers seemingly preferring a bridge with individual string holes (tho' there are exceptions). Good extant examples include the Rene Voboam of 1641 (Ashmolean) which has a highly and individually decorated bridge in the same style as other decoration on the instrument and thus seems to be orginal. Various Alexandre Voboam guitars also have slotted bridges which I believe are orginal (or at least 17th century) since by the 18th century most/all bridges seemed to have string holes. However the picture is far from clear and the waters are further muddied by replacement bridges. One explanation has been that slotted bridges allow more adjustment of string height at the bridge but, in my experience, there is no very significant difference whether tied from the top or bottom of the slot since static forces will always tend to pull the point where the string passes over its own loop to the mid point between top and bottom. A more reasonable explanation it that it increases flexibility of the bridge and thus enhances the bass response. But much speculation all round Martyn --- On Sun, 27/11/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitar bridges To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 27 November, 2011, 19:29 This is just a quick query to everyone who plays the baroque guitar - about bridges. Mine has slots rather than holes which the strings pass through when they are tied to the bridge. Is this usual on baroque guitars. Is there any standard arrangement. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
-Original Message- From: Monica Hall [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:32 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Exactly - now who will volunteer to write it. I would love to... if it weren't for that pesky day job that has nothing to do with historic guitars. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
- Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Monica Hall' mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 3:32 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges -Original Message- From: Monica Hall [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:32 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Exactly - now who will volunteer to write it. I would love to... if it weren't for that pesky day job that has nothing to do with historic guitars. Perhaps when you are retired. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
Sounds like a plan. ...If I can convince you to coauthor! Eugene -Original Message- From: Monica Hall [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 11:06 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Monica Hall' mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 3:32 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges -Original Message- From: Monica Hall [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:32 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Exactly - now who will volunteer to write it. I would love to... if it weren't for that pesky day job that has nothing to do with historic guitars. Perhaps when you are retired. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges
One explanation has been that slotted bridges allow more adjustment of string height at the bridge but, in my experience, there is no very significant difference whether tied from the top or bottom of the slot since static forces will always tend to pull the point where the string passes over its own loop to the mid point between top and bottom. With the slots you can first fix the (high octave) strings with a normal loop, and then make a a second loop from below. Thus the string can be adjusted considerably lower at the bridge than the bourdons. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
