[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Dear Stewart, We all seem to think that the printed bass line is what should be played ideally. And probably it was played like it is on the keyboard (which Caccini was master of). In practice (on his beloved theorbo?) adaptations would have to be made regarding octaves, and, as an exception, the bass may have crossed the tenor. I just don't think we can say that the music was written (notated) with the theorbo in mind, although in the end even that could be merely a semantic discussion. I am aware that there was music 'in theory' and music 'in practice'. This endless thread started with Martyn's question whether raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realization differs substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar. Both solutions are a practical in the first place. But on the guitar (in alfabeto) you don't really raise basses to other octaves, as 'parts' are mixed up all the time. What would be an exception on a bass instrument (theorbo) is ubiquitous in guitar accompaniment. That seems an essential difference. best, Lex - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument Dear Lex, One hesitates to mention it without 101 caveats, but what about a theorbo in G? Evidence for such an instrument is pretty thin on the ground (pace Praetorius), but at least some of Caccini's songs are in flattish keys which would favour a theorbo in G. I have not played any Caccini for a long time and cannot remember, but could the missing notes be provided by re-tuning the relevant string - e.g. have F# at the expense of F natural - or are there songs where you need both? The other possibility is that Caccini did not have only the theorbo in mind, but wrote bass parts for all instruments, expecting the player to adapt what he saw for his own particular instrument. Lutes were more common than theorboes, and may have been used by at least some people buying Caccini's book. The missing chromatic notes would have been available as stopped notes on the lute. Best wishes, Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument
Dear Martyn, A small correction: you mean Robert Dowland's _Musicall Banquet_, not his _Varietie_. Thanks for including the word nominal for the theorbo in G, which opens up possibilities without having to postulate giant instruments in G. We have discussed the problem of non-existent bass notes on the theorbo, but there is also the problem of non-existent harmony notes. Caccini used compound figures, e.g. 11/10, an octave higher than 4/3. They are ubiquitous, e.g. 11/10 above g (the one below middle c') on the third stave of the first song. It is possible to realise these notes at pitch on a lute, but impossible on a theorbo. Things start to look decidedly silly on page 2, stave 2 of the second song (Dolcissimo), because the 11 appears above d (7 notes below middle c'), followed by 10 above D (an octave lower). The same thing happens again at the bottom of the next page. From this, I assume that the octave one realises these figures should not be taken too literally. Caccini uses a variety of clefs for the singer's part: treble (g2), soprano (c1), alto (c3), tenor (c4), and bass (f4). Should we take the pitch of the notes literally, or is it acceptable for a tenor to sing Amarilli mia bella an octave lower than written? I conclude that a certain flexibility is required when performing this music. If Caccini had intended his songs always to be accompanied by one theorbo, it would be reasonable to expect all the bass notes to be printed at the right octave for that instrument. However, if he thought a bass viol or a keyboard instrument might join in, jumping up an octave for an occasional f# or g# would sound unnecessarily weird. It seems likely that many pieces (songs as well as instrumental music) which survive as intabulations for lute or theorbo, were composed first in staff notation with no particular instrument in mind. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson Sent: 19 December 2011 09:57 To: Vihuela List Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument Dear Lex, As you say it does all seem a bit endless.. But might I suggest one reason (amongst others) why it may seem so: only yesterday I gave a direct quote from Caccini's own, very influential, book which very clearly has Caccini saying the chitarrone is the most suitable instrument of any to accompany the voice. Since you're cropping messages others may miss what Caccini himself had to say, so here is that earlier message again. I say others since I've seen messages saying what about theorbos in a nominal G as well as those in A... --- Thanks Lex, Caccini can speak for himself: 'the chitarrone is better suited to accompany the voice, especially the tenor, than any other instrument'.(G. Caccini, Le Nuove Musiche (Florence, 1602), sig. C2V 'Ai Lettori ... del Chitarrone ... essendo questo strumento piu atto ad accompagnare la voce, e particolarmente quella del Tenore, che qualunque altro.') Further, Piccinini(1623) tells us Caccini used a chitarrone to accompany himself before 1594. The chitarrone did not, of course, at first have numerous long extended basses. However it was tuned in a nominal A or G so, as previously pointed out, the same problem would arise even if tuned in G with a sung d and f# in the bass. I suspect Striggio was using the term lute in a generic sense: it is certainly not 'wrong' to use any form of lute from around this time to perform his songs. See Rob Dowland Var of lute lessons for example and Ms 704 Bib Con Brussels which contains intabulated settings of songs by Caccini and his contemporaries. regards Martyn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
As a relative newcomer to early music (less than a decade), I want to second this point. The right hand is quite important. When teaching guitar to youngsters I try to explain that the right hand is far more important than the left. To illustrate, I play lots of left-hand notes and chords with a mechanical right hand, and then play a single note or chord with a musical right hand... Then ask them, which is a song? It's unfortunate indeed that there is so little guidance in this regard. Not just for technique, but for musicality. I know there's a lot of deprecation toward thrashing about on the guitar. But where does reasonable expression end and thrashing begin? How much of modern techniques such as Flamenco, chitarra battente, or the wide range of Latin American techniques echo early practice? How much have these techniques suffered genetic drift? Has strumming the guitar drifted as far afield as the catholic sects of Northern New Mexico drifted from the dictates of the church? Can we discern original sensibilities in what survives today? Oh, how I wish I would win the lottery, and quit work! cud __ From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 11:47 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo Dear List Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how to conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with strumming. I think the 2 main features of guitarra espanola de cinco ordenes are on one hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions- and an apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more characteristically, strumming. When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If the player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz's Laberintos, for example). But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation gives not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't even find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set of original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and little more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely, strumming. The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hagase cuenta que la mano derecha que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compas, y los dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y voces que rige y gobierna por ella. The right hand is the chapel master that rules and conducts the instruments and voices, represented by the left hand fingers. I think strumming itself is a powerful tool to make clear the rhetoric of a piece, particularly a song. I think the main job of a guitar player accompanying a singer, or himself, is to shape harmony with the right hand. As someone put it, to illuminate the text from within. The old ones don't give detailed instructions about strumming because, in my opinion, strumming is an elusive art and science. It's something you learn by playing along with your teacher or with the community. Witness the master strummers of Latin American guitars -each instrument has its own complex and unique strumming language- some of these players have an outstanding level of performance and are as virtuosos in their field as any classic guitar player. They make what many old Spanish sources say: hacen hablar a la guitarra, they make the guitar speak. Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Dear All, Yes, as far as I remember Caccini only talks about chitarrone, not tiorba. It may well be that the two names become synonymous later on, and when we talk of a theorbo we mean a long-necked instrument with the top two courses at the lower octave. If we believe Piccinini, the long neck first appeared in 1595, and in any case we seem to believe him when he tells us that bass lutes could have just the first string re-entrant as long as they weren't too big. It seems the best guess we can make is that, at least in the early days, Caccini's chitarrone was in fact a short-necked bass lute (with 8-10 courses?) with re-entrant tuning of one or both of the top two courses. This would solve most of the problems of chromatic bass notes, 11-10 progressions, etc. I think also of Victoria (whatshername - Archilei?) singing in the Florentine Intermedii of 1589 to her own accompaniment on a liuto grande, and Saraceni's St.Cecilia painting showing a large 8c(?) lute with 8 frets on the neck and the bottom two courses on a short extension. Best wishes, Martin P.S. We seem to have migrated to lutes and theorboes - should all this be on the vihuela list?! On 19/12/2011 16:05, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Stewart I agree with almost everything you write (especially about RD's Musicall Banquet!) - I noticed it after sending and wondered who, if any, would spot it first.. But I can't claim is what a deliberate error. Caccini doesn't say one has to only perform his songs to the theorbo - but rather that it is the best accompanying instrument for the voice (particularly the tenor). And I do agree that the composer would have written his music to be performed by a wide variety of instruments. However the question I was originally asked was whether Caccini would have sang to the theorbo since Striggio had reported him singing to the lute. The answer is yes. The use of compound figures has been discussed before I recall. One must bear in mind that the theorbo isn't always the large instrument requiring both top courses the octave down so higher notes are more practicable than might suppose. I suspect an instrument in nominal A or G with just the first course an octave down was much more common throughout the 17th century than is the practice nowadays. I have such an instrument (fingered string length 76cm with double fingerboard courses) and find it a real joy to play this instrument when accompanying such things as English continuo songs by Lanier, Lawes and the like and contemporary French songs by Lambert and LeCamus. regards Martyn --- On Mon, 19/12/11, Stewart McCoylu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Stewart McCoylu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument To: Vihuela Listvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 11:52 Dear Martyn, A small correction: you mean Robert Dowland's _Musicall Banquet_, not his _Varietie_. Thanks for including the word nominal for the theorbo in G, which opens up possibilities without having to postulate giant instruments in G. We have discussed the problem of non-existent bass notes on the theorbo, but there is also the problem of non-existent harmony notes. Caccini used compound figures, e.g. 11/10, an octave higher than 4/3. They are ubiquitous, e.g. 11/10 above g (the one below middle c') on the third stave of the first song. It is possible to realise these notes at pitch on a lute, but impossible on a theorbo. Things start to look decidedly silly on page 2, stave 2 of the second song (Dolcissimo), because the 11 appears above d (7 notes below middle c'), followed by 10 above D (an octave lower). The same thing happens again at the bottom of the next page. From this, I assume that the octave one realises these figures should not be taken too literally. Caccini uses a variety of clefs for the singer's part: treble (g2), soprano (c1), alto (c3), tenor (c4), and bass (f4). Should we take the pitch of the notes literally, or is it acceptable for a tenor to sing Amarilli mia bella an octave lower than written? I conclude that a certain flexibility is required when performing this music. If Caccini had intended his songs always to be accompanied by one theorbo, it would be reasonable to expect all the bass notes to be printed at the right octave for that instrument. However, if he thought a bass viol or a keyboard instrument might join in, jumping up an octave for an occasional f# or g# would sound unnecessarily weird. It seems likely that many pieces (songs as well as instrumental music) which survive as intabulations for lute or theorbo, were composed first in staff notation with no particular instrument in mind. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message-
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Many thanks for this Stewart. It is very interesting as it covers areas with which I am not particularly familiar. Aside from that and in response to what you said as follows Whether or not you think these accompaniments may be described as continuo is a moot point. My view is that they are all continuo parts. It is really just a matter of what you call these things. I think (as far as I remember) the point I was trying to make was that alfabeto accompaniments do not include the bass part in any shape or form and strictly speaking realizing a bass line which is often referred to as accompanying a part does involve including the bass line. This may be splitting hairs but I think it is still an important difference. Monica - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 10:31 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo Dear Monica, Allison's _Psalmes_ are printed as a table book, similar to the books of lute songs by John Dowland and others. The Cittern parts are in French tablature, and are written upside down on the page above the Cantus and Lute music. The next page has the Altus upside down, the Bassus sideways on, and the Tenor the right way up. If the cittern player were looking at this book, he would find it difficult to read the other parts, apart from the Altus. In his introduction to the Scolar Press facsimile edition, Ian Harwood writes: There are a good many discrepancies in Allison's book, mainly between lute and cittern, which are too numerous to list here. Sometimes one finds a major-minor clash, which can usually be resolved by reference to the voice-parts. At other times, the cittern may have a chord using the note of the Bassus part as a root position, when in fact it is a first inversion. Both kinds of error, not infrequently found also in instrumental broken consort music, suggest that the cittern part was built up from the Bassus, without much reference to the other voices. Much of this duplicates what you were saying about alfabeto chords for the guitar. The chords for the guitar and the cittern must have been created from the bass line, but without reference to anything else. Some English viol manuscripts have extra part-books for the theorbo. These theorbo bass lines are unfigured, inviting the same sort of discrepancies we have seen with the cittern and the baroque guitar. With all of these instruments you would stumble along when playing the music for the first time, but thereafter you would hopefully remember the gruesome major-minor clashes, and get it right next time. Some of the 6/3-5/3 clashes would not matter so much, particularly chord IV (CEG) and chord IIb (CEA), which together produce what could be an acceptable II7b (CEGA). Whether or not you think these accompaniments may be described as continuo is a moot point. My view is that they are all continuo parts. After all, a theorbo man reading a figured bass (which may or may not have appropriate figures for every note) and interpreting those figures as best he can, is no different from a theorbo man reading an unfigured bass and using the Rule of the Octave to achieve the same result. The guitar continuo is realised in the form of alfabeto, and the cittern continuo in French lute tablature, presumably for people who were unable to realise a figured or unfigured bass line themselves. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 18 December 2011 21:40 To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo That's interesting - but surely a competant cittern player would not play them as writen but would correct them? The point I was making is that - yes - the chords have been derived from the bass line but they are wrong because they do not take into account the voice part as well. They do not observe the rules for accompanying a bass line. You wouldn't play what is written and there is indeed some evidence that guitarists were savvy enough to correct blatant errors. Monica - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:31 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo Dear Monica, A similar thing occurs with the cittern parts of Richard Allison's _Psalmes of David in Meter_ (London, 1599). They would have been derived from the bass line, but it would have been an unfigured bass, so major/minor and 6/3-5/3 discrepancies would have been inevitable. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
But on the guitar (in alfabeto) you don't really raise basses to other octaves, as 'parts' are mixed up all the time. What would be an exception on a bass instrument (theorbo) is ubiquitous in guitar accompaniment. That seems an essential difference. I think that the essential difference is that when strumming an accompaniment you are not going to reproduce the bass line at all. Bringing in Caccini was really irrelevant. However, later on - post Foscarini 1640 - when the bass line was reproduced in the accompaniment there may have been odd occasions when the bass line might have crossed with a voice part because of the lack of a low G but I can't think of any actual examples. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 8:28 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument Dear Stewart, We all seem to think that the printed bass line is what should be played ideally. And probably it was played like it is on the keyboard (which Caccini was master of). In practice (on his beloved theorbo?) adaptations would have to be made regarding octaves, and, as an exception, the bass may have crossed the tenor. I just don't think we can say that the music was written (notated) with the theorbo in mind, although in the end even that could be merely a semantic discussion. I am aware that there was music 'in theory' and music 'in practice'. This endless thread started with Martyn's question whether raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realization differs substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar. Both solutions are a practical in the first place. But on the guitar (in alfabeto) you don't really raise basses to other octaves, as 'parts' are mixed up all the time. What would be an exception on a bass instrument (theorbo) is ubiquitous in guitar accompaniment. That seems an essential difference. best, Lex - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument Dear Lex, One hesitates to mention it without 101 caveats, but what about a theorbo in G? Evidence for such an instrument is pretty thin on the ground (pace Praetorius), but at least some of Caccini's songs are in flattish keys which would favour a theorbo in G. I have not played any Caccini for a long time and cannot remember, but could the missing notes be provided by re-tuning the relevant string - e.g. have F# at the expense of F natural - or are there songs where you need both? The other possibility is that Caccini did not have only the theorbo in mind, but wrote bass parts for all instruments, expecting the player to adapt what he saw for his own particular instrument. Lutes were more common than theorboes, and may have been used by at least some people buying Caccini's book. The missing chromatic notes would have been available as stopped notes on the lute. Best wishes, Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
You are right - we know very little about how they actually strummed. Millioni gives the following very brief description but he not giving much away.. These will give more pleasure if played with three or four fingers of the right hand, holding them separately one from another, sounding all the strings together and playing close to the rose and the neck; in this way the music will be rendered more sweetly. As far as the alfabeto songs are concerned there are a very small number of sources which do supply fully notated accompaniments. There are two printed sources - the 1622 edition of Sanseverino's guitar book and a collection of vocal pieces by Fasolo printed in 1627 and a few manuscript sources - notably I-Fc Ms. B 2556. All of these indicate that the strumming patterns reflected the note values of the voice part. There are also pieces in the books of Colonna and Foscarini's 1629 book which seem to be song accompaniments although they don't include the words. These also have strumming patterns based on note values. Not much to go on. I do whether the people who performed these songs in the early 17th century would have gone in for flamenco style strumming. They were not peasants or little people and they might have regarded it as beneath their dignity to imitate what the lower orders did. Monica - Original Message - From: Eloy Cruz eloyc...@gmail.com To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 4:47 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo Dear List Although the subject of this thread is labeled Strumming as basso continuo, the exchange of different list members has to do with how to conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with strumming. I think the 2 main features of guitarra española de cinco órdenes are on one hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions- and an apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more characteristically, strumming. When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If the player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz´s Laberintos, for example). But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation gives not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't even find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set of original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and little more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely, strumming. The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hágase cuenta que la mano derecha que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compás, y los dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y voces que rige y gobierna por ella. The right hand is the chapel master that rules and conducts the instruments and voices, represented by the left hand fingers. I think strumming itself is a powerful tool to make clear the rhetoric of a piece, particularly a song. I think the main job of a guitar player accompanying a singer, or himself, is to shape harmony with the right hand. As someone put it, to illuminate the text from within. The old ones don't give detailed instructions about strumming because, in my opinion, strumming is an elusive art and science. It's something you learn by playing along with your teacher or with the community. Witness the master strummers of Latin American guitars -each instrument has its own complex and unique strumming language- some of these players have an outstanding level of performance and are as virtuosos in their field as any classic guitar player. They make what many old Spanish sources say: hacen hablar a la guitarra, they make the guitar speak. Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
