[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! 2

2018-01-30 Thread mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Martyn

I am not going to comment in detail on your pathetic attempt to 
discredit everything that I say.  If you think that your rant at the 
beginning of your message of 14th January, sent to both the vihuela and 
baroque lute lists, constitutes general politeness you have very 
strange ideas as to what is good manners.

I am now trying to reply to what you have said in your previous message 
but I am not sure that it is worth the effort.

Monica


Original Message
From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: 30/01/2018 10:35 
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"<mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "vihuela@cs.
dartmouth.edu"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: [VIHUELA]  Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack! 2

Dear Monica,
   I don't usually 'knee-jerk' these things but was truly astonished at
   your wild reaction (below) to my  calm email yesterday in which I 
had
   carefully tried to avoid our earlier combative exchanges and present 
a
   different (ie non-subjective) approach in a non-confrontational 
manner
   - 'a fresh tack'..
   I'll also be interested to see what communications you privately 
sent
   to me that I've leaked in an open public forum in my mailing of
   yesterday.  As far as I can see, the only intimation to anybody else
   that you've privately communicated is my opening phrase in this 
email
   "As you now know" 
   I have already explained that reading our previous communications 
has
   so far clearly failed to influence each other - but just because I
   disagreed with you doesn't mean I didn't read them!  In fact 
yesterday
   I raised this very matter and intentionally wrote (see below)  "Our
   exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each
   other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any  progress,
   another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and  closer
   related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence."
   All the quotations I used from you are from your open public 
mailings
   to this forum and are taken verbatim and were not edited - perhaps 
you
   changed your mind subsequently.
   Finally, I do think general politeness is important in these 
exchanges
   and thus I'll be interested to read of the "torrent of personal 
abuse"
   directed towards you - other than, naturally, simply fair comment.
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: "mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" <mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: VihuelaList <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 20:28
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which 
in
   part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately.
   It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read 
any
   of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I
   have said in them.
   I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his
   messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that 
he
   is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them.
   Watch this space!
   As ever
   Monica
   Original Message
   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 29/01/2018 17:16
   To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack!
   - Forwarded Message -
 From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
 <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[7]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
 Dear Monica,
 As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
 mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going
   to   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might
   soon
 expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in 
a
 piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying 
and
 awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.

   
---

 Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
 generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're 
relevant
 there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar)
   can  find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's
   not
   a   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..

   
---

 Our exchanges of 'te

[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack! 2

2018-01-30 Thread Martyn Hodgson 
   Dear Monica,
   I don't usually 'knee-jerk' these things but was truly astonished at
   your wild reaction (below) to my  calm email yesterday in which I had
   carefully tried to avoid our earlier combative exchanges and present a
   different (ie non-subjective) approach in a non-confrontational manner
   - 'a fresh tack'..
   I'll also be interested to see what communications you privately sent
   to me that I've leaked in an open public forum in my mailing of
   yesterday.  As far as I can see, the only intimation to anybody else
   that you've privately communicated is my opening phrase in this email
   "As you now know" 
   I have already explained that reading our previous communications has
   so far clearly failed to influence each other - but just because I
   disagreed with you doesn't mean I didn't read them!  In fact yesterday
   I raised this very matter and intentionally wrote (see below)  "Our
   exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade each
   other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any  progress,
   another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps and  closer
   related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence."
   All the quotations I used from you are from your open public mailings
   to this forum and are taken verbatim and were not edited - perhaps you
   changed your mind subsequently.
   Finally, I do think general politeness is important in these exchanges
   and thus I'll be interested to read of the "torrent of personal abuse"
   directed towards you - other than, naturally, simply fair comment.
   regards
   Martyn
 __

   From: "mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   To: VihuelaList 
   Cc: Martyn Hodgson 
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 20:28
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Obviously it will take me some time to reply to this message which in
   part is a response to a message which I sent to Martyn privately.
   It will be all the more difficult because he has clearly not read any
   of my messages and has consistently misrepresented everything that I
   have said in them.
   I will just say at this juncture that he may be entitled to send his
   messages to all of the lists if he wishes to but I don't think that he
   is entitled to send a torrent of personal abuse to any of them.
   Watch this space!
   As ever
   Monica
   Original Message
   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 29/01/2018 17:16
   To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189)  - a fresh tack!
   - Forwarded Message -
 From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
 <[6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[7]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
 Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
 Dear Monica,
 As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
 mailings since these had both ended by saying that you 'were going
   to   leave it  for now' and I therefore took this as meaning I might
   soon
 expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
 piecemeal and disjointed manner, I deliberately delayed replying and
 awaited your further thoughts. However, I shall do so now.

   ---

 Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
 generally copy things to other of Wayne's lists if they're relevant
 there. Hence why gallichon/mandora stuff (but usually not guitar)
   can  find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's
   not
   a   fiendish plot of any kind!  But on with the motley..

   ---

 Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
 each other of our respective cases  and therefore, to make any
 progress, another tack is now required: one more forensic perhaps
   and   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and
   source   evidence.
Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
   - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
 that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
 instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just
   three   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument
   with
 five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
 mandora has seven unstopped basses" );
   - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
 mandora and that the remainder