Dear Monica,
I mentioned below that the Losy rondeau in Brno D189 for a 6 course
mandora (or guitar?) is also known in a Dm lute version but at the time
I couldn't lay my hands on the source.
I have now: Besancon Ms 279152, Cod. Saizenay.
It's in the same key (C) for both instruments. The lute has a few extra
low basses but both versions are fairly close. It fits on both
instruments very well ('tho it's an easy piece technically anyway) so
no conclusion about which version came first are obvious......
Martyn
--- On Tue, 6/11/12, Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
To: "Monica Hall" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 15:18
Yes, I have the Supraphon edition - not at all bad considering the
date. Alas, some of the transcriptions are incorrect: see, for
example, No 1 Allemande. This is also the first piece in MsKk 77 but
you'll see that the flags in the first full bar are incorrectly
transcribed in the Supraphon edition: instead of three quavers
(down,
up, down) the editors have them as a quaver (d) and two semi-quavers
(u
d). The rest of the piece is similarly incorrectly transcribed.
This is the worst of all but there are a fair number of such
scattered
errors throughout the publication. The one I like the best is No 33
'Aria' which they transcribe as being in 5/4 time and over which
I tried many different stresses to make it work effectively (shades
of
William Shield's predeliction for 5/4) but, alas, when I saw a copy
of
the original I saw the scribe marks it simply as a 3 time and,
although
some flags are missing and barring is often nonsensical, it plays as
a
triple time piece - what a shame - I rather liked the idea of a 5/4
guitar work in the early 18th century. The page before has a
'Menuet'
which is similarly poorly barred in the original but as a menuet can
be
easily rebarred (interestingly the Supraphon editors exclude it
altogether, perhaps for such bamng reasons - so No 32 isn't in the
publication...). But hats off to Supraphon for publishing such a
work
at that date - so the 'communist' state at the time was not all
bad......
You'll see the editors also made a list of sources and include
another
one for mandora with works by Losy: Brno, Mopravian Museum A 3329
The Losy rondeau I mentioned as being probably for mandora is on
page
31 of the Supraphon edition. In Brno Ms D189 it has 'Rondeau / C
Loeschi' which the editors thought, I think correctly, is Losy.
This
particular piece does, in fact, appear as a Dm lute piece (can't
find
it off-hand but I have it somewhere) as well as in D189 for a 6
string
instrument in a known mandora tuning. We've discussed D189 before
-
it contains instructions how to tune the gallichon/mandora ( f. 3
'Calledono accord') and the guitar (f.48 ' Fundementa Chytarra')
and,
interestingly, on f.48v has 'Accordo Chytarra et Mandora indicating
either instrument is possible. And from f. 48v it has pieces for an
instrument with six courses in a known mandora tuning with the sixth
course just a tone below the fifth - presumably a guitarist would
simply play the open third course. On 51v is our rondeau showing
quite
clearly 6 courses - and in this piece putting the sixth course up an
octave would spoil the melodic effect (see last system bars 3
through
to 6). Odd that the editors make no mention of a sixth course being
required. The piece also fits very easily on the mandora so perhaps,
as
suggested earlier, it was conceived for the mandora by Losy rather
than
guitar or Dm lute. And so, in an indirect way, perhaps Losy was able
to
play the guitar - but in mandora form.................
I also find Deisel works better on the mandora than guitar ( to do
with
having low basses and on the outside) as also discussed before.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Tue, 6/11/12, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 13:19
Well - I hadn't thought about the mandora or indeed what kind of
lute
the
music might originally have been for.
In fact there is a rather better edition of all of Losy's "guitar"
music
originally edited by Jan Racek, revised by Jaroslav Pohanka and
published by
Supraphon in 1979 in the series "Musica Antiqua Bohemica".
It includes both the Tombeau and the Sarabande. They seem to me to
be
very
idiomatically conceived for the guitar. The chord shapes are
typical
alfabeto.
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Monica Hall" <[2][6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2012 9:18 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
>
> When you say 'arrangements of lute music' do you include mandora
as
a
> lute or have you just the 11 course Dm instrument in mind (as
most
> people still do)? One of Losy's guitar pieces (rondeau in Brno
> D189) is extant in a mandora tablature (usually mistaken for
guitar
> tablature!). Maybe this tombeau was conceived for
mandora..........
>
> The Karl Scheidt publication was, I recall, aimed at beginners,
> and contains mostly facile Losy works - some from the first Ms
in
the
> Lobkowicz Ms volume (OLIM Prague II Ms Kk 77) in which Losy is
> identified as the composer (' Pieces Composee/ Par le
Comte/Losy').
It
> also contains slightly more challenging works - tho' not as much
so
as
> the second volume in the binding which looks to me to be in a
different
> hand and different (later?) style and shouldn't be linked to
Losy.
>
> M.
>
> --- On Tue, 6/11/12, Monica Hall <[4][8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[5][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Losy (Logi) sarabande?
> To: "WALSH STUART" <[6][10]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, 6 November, 2012, 8:56
>
> I found it now. It is not actually attributed to Losi, Losi
seems
> to be
> a bit of a mystery. These pieces are supposed to be
arrangements
of
> lute
> music but none of the pieces survive in versions for the lute.
> Anyway - it is really nice to have a chance to hear you play it
-
not
> easy.
> I shall have a go myself later.
> Monica
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "WALSH STUART" <[1][8][12]s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
> To: "vl" <[2][9][13]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2012 10:14 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Losy (Logi) sarabande?
> > I've also sent this to the Baroque lute list. It's an
attempt
at a
> very
> > striking sarabande, possibly by J.A. Losy, but sounding
nothing
> like
> > the more familiar guitar pieces.
> > I incautiously included the music - to show what it looks
like,
> and, of
> > course, showing errors to boot. A fine piece though.
> > [1][3][10][14]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
> > Stuart
> > --
> >
> > References
> >
> > 1. [4][11][15]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
[5][12][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1.
[13][17]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.walsh@ntlworl
d.com
> 2.
[14][18]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dart
mouth.e
du
> 3. [15][19]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
> 4. [16][20]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
> 5.
[17][21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1.
[22]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
.uk
2.
[23]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3.
[24]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
4.
[25]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
5.
[26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
6.
[27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
7.
[28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
8.
[29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
9.
[30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
10. [31]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
11. [32]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
12. [33]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
13.
[34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
14.
[35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
du
15. [36]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
16. [37]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
17. [38]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
14. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
15. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
17. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
18. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.e
19. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
20. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
22. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
24. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
28. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
30. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
31. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
32. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
33. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
34. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com
35. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
36. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
37. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws44iAjdTco
38. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
