[VIHUELA] Re: 6-course Viola-Vihuela with 11 pegs?
> From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2006 16:22:00 - > To: > Cc: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 6-course Viola-Vihuela with 11 pegs? > > > - Original Message - > From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 1:04 AM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 6-course Viola-Vihuela with 11 pegs? > > >> Alrighty, thanks for the clarifications. I wasn't aware that some 12 peg >> instruments had bridges allowing for only 11 strings, interesting. > > In fact, only one so far ... If you look at this > http://www.vihuelademano.com/quito/quito-vihuela.htm you'll see what I mean. > > Well, the 5-course guitarra spagnuola, despite being usually provided with > 10 pegs / peg holes in its peg head, seems to have been most often strung > with a single first course (i.e. 9 strings in all). However, there are > hardly any original bridges survived so one can't be sure whether this way > of stringing was also reflected in provision of corresponding number of > holes in the bridge (or, in case of slotted bridge, there would have been a > shallow slot for the first course, as in case with the Quito vihuela). Who > knows, perhaps it was both ways, depending on what was required ...? It is strange. Maybe the 10th and 12th holes were just a place to store a spare peg? or in case the head-stock cracked somewhere, at one of the holes, and you'd have an extra tight hole in reserve? -- just wild imaginings . . . >> BTW, do >> you have a close-up of the Pinturicchio instrument's peg-box around (that >> I >> could see)? > I wish I had a good quality close-up of this and that's why the peg number > is under ? in the quote that I gave (I can just barely count them ...). the one in Woodfield at least lets us see a few of the tiny (many) little pegs on the left side. The original very large and hi-res BW image Woodfield had access to _is_ out there somewhere, some major photo archive I imagine, or maybe even at/from the Vatican itself. I found one very large sample of that elusive full image, but alas the peg-box is chopped off! But you can tell from the scored strings (many thin white lines) that it's the same image. The copy of that fragment I have on my web site is scaled down about 50% from the way I first received it -- meaning the original is HUGE and very detailed (if anyone were ever to snag the whole thing someday from somewhere, there is hope yet). http://www.TheCipher.com/viola-sine-arculo_vihuela_BorgiaAptsVatican_Bernard inoPintoricchio_1493_Italy_BW_SUPER_deta.jpg Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 6-course Viola-Vihuela with 11 pegs?
- Original Message - From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 1:04 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 6-course Viola-Vihuela with 11 pegs? > Alrighty, thanks for the clarifications. I wasn't aware that some 12 peg > instruments had bridges allowing for only 11 strings, interesting. In fact, only one so far ... If you look at this http://www.vihuelademano.com/quito/quito-vihuela.htm you'll see what I mean. Well, the 5-course guitarra spagnuola, despite being usually provided with 10 pegs / peg holes in its peg head, seems to have been most often strung with a single first course (i.e. 9 strings in all). However, there are hardly any original bridges survived so one can't be sure whether this way of stringing was also reflected in provision of corresponding number of holes in the bridge (or, in case of slotted bridge, there would have been a shallow slot for the first course, as in case with the Quito vihuela). Who knows, perhaps it was both ways, depending on what was required ...? > BTW, do > you have a close-up of the Pinturicchio instrument's peg-box around (that > I > could see)? I wish I had a good quality close-up of this and that's why the peg number is under ? in the quote that I gave (I can just barely count them ...). Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 6-course Viola-Vihuela with 11 pegs?
> From: "Alexander Batov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2006 23:55:12 -
> To:
> Cc: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: 6-course Viola-Vihuela with 11 pegs?
>
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:17:06 -0800 Roger E. Blumberg wrote:
>
> == 6-course Viola/Vihuela with 11 pegs/strings, 16th cent ==
>
>> I take it Alexander and maybe others are looking for iconographical
>> evidence
>> of one of these? Or is it just an occurrence of asymmetrical L-R peg-count
>> and arrangement on the _later_ style of peg-box that matters here?
>
> http://www.vihuelademano.com/abrantes-vihuela.htm
>
> Yes, Roger, it is an occurrence of asymmetrical peg arrangement on a
> flat-type peg head, also with the odd number peg configuration. It may also
> be that some instruments (vihuela / viola da mano) with an even number of
> pegs (in this case, symmetrically positioned on a flat-type peg head) were
> actually designed only to be strung with an odd number of strings. The only
> surviving example that illustrates this is the Quito vihuela: 12
> symmetrically positioned peg holes but the slots in the bridge only allow to
> string it up with 11 strings.
>
>> In any event, I accidentally noticed the same today on this (old familiar)
>> icon, 6 (left) and 5 (right) pegs, for an early "eleven string viola"
>> Girolamo Libri 1520:
>
> Actually all known to me occurrences of odd peg numbers (either 9 or 11) on
> viola da mano with a viol-type peg head (lateral pegs) are listed on this
> page:
> http://www.vihuelademano.com/rcmdias.htm (about one-third down the page, or
> see below)
>
> (quote) A number of early 16th century iconographical sources show
> instruments which can equally be qualified either as viola da mano or
> vihuela. Their main difference is in the shape of the body which appears to
> have either a c-shaped (cornered) or incurved waist but such features as peg
> head construction and the number of pegs seem to have been shared by both
> types. On some of the well-known depictions of such instruments their peg
> heads are clearly shown and the number of pegs can be exactly counted. This
> number is predominantly either nine or eleven for five- and six-course
> instruments accordingly. Those depictions are: Anonymous (Sardinian school),
> Madonna and child with angels musicians, c.1500 (Castelsardo) - 9 pegs;
> Bernardino Pinturicchio, fresco, c.1492 (Rome, Vatican) - 11 pegs? ; Luca
> Signorelli, Coronation of the elect, c.1500 (Orvieto Cathedral) - 9 pegs;
> intarsia door in Palazzo Ducale, c.1507 (Mantua) - 11 pegs; Anonymous
> fresco, Santa Maria della Consolazione, c.1503 (Ferrara) - 11 pegs; Girolamo
> di Libri, Madonna and child with saints, c.1520 (Metropolitan Museum of
> Art) - 11 pegs.(end of quote)
>
> I suppose one more representation the 11-string viola da mano can be added to
> this list, also by Girolamo dai Libri ('Madonna and Child with St Anne', the
> National Gallery, London) that shows a smaller viola da mano with a
> guitar-like shaped body.
>
> Alexander
Alrighty, thanks for the clarifications. I wasn't aware that some 12 peg
instruments had bridges allowing for only 11 strings, interesting. BTW, do
you have a close-up of the Pinturicchio instrument's peg-box around (that I
could see)?
Thanks
Roger
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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: 6-course Viola-Vihuela with 11 pegs?
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 04:17:06 -0800 Roger E. Blumberg wrote:
== 6-course Viola/Vihuela with 11 pegs/strings, 16th cent ==
> I take it Alexander and maybe others are looking for iconographical
> evidence
> of one of these? Or is it just an occurrence of asymmetrical L-R peg-count
> and arrangement on the _later_ style of peg-box that matters here?
http://www.vihuelademano.com/abrantes-vihuela.htm
Yes, Roger, it is an occurrence of asymmetrical peg arrangement on a
flat-type peg head, also with the odd number peg configuration. It may also
be that some instruments (vihuela / viola da mano) with an even number of
pegs (in this case, symmetrically positioned on a flat-type peg head) were
actually designed only to be strung with an odd number of strings. The only
surviving example that illustrates this is the Quito vihuela: 12
symmetrically positioned peg holes but the slots in the bridge only allow to
string it up with 11 strings.
> In any event, I accidentally noticed the same today on this (old familiar)
> icon, 6 (left) and 5 (right) pegs, for an early "eleven string viola"
> Girolamo Libri 1520:
Actually all known to me occurrences of odd peg numbers (either 9 or 11) on
viola da mano with a viol-type peg head (lateral pegs) are listed on this
page:
http://www.vihuelademano.com/rcmdias.htm (about one-third down the page, or
see below)
(quote) A number of early 16th century iconographical sources show
instruments which can equally be qualified either as viola da mano or
vihuela. Their main difference is in the shape of the body which appears to
have either a c-shaped (cornered) or incurved waist but such features as peg
head construction and the number of pegs seem to have been shared by both
types. On some of the well-known depictions of such instruments their peg
heads are clearly shown and the number of pegs can be exactly counted. This
number is predominantly either nine or eleven for five- and six-course
instruments accordingly. Those depictions are: Anonymous (Sardinian school),
Madonna and child with angels musicians, c.1500 (Castelsardo) - 9 pegs;
Bernardino Pinturicchio, fresco, c.1492 (Rome, Vatican) - 11 pegs? ; Luca
Signorelli, Coronation of the elect, c.1500 (Orvieto Cathedral) - 9 pegs;
intarsia door in Palazzo Ducale, c.1507 (Mantua) - 11 pegs; Anonymous
fresco, Santa Maria della Consolazione, c.1503 (Ferrara) - 11 pegs; Girolamo
di Libri, Madonna and child with saints, c.1520 (Metropolitan Museum of
Art) - 11 pegs.(end of quote)
I suppose one more representation the11-string viola da mano can be added to
this list, also by Girolamo dai Libri ('Madonna and Child with St Anne', the
National Gallery, London) that shows a smaller viola da mano with a
guitar-like shaped body.
Alexander
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
