[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
It's safe now to exhale... I think Lex is trying to argue that the French tuning originated with Carre and Corbetta just copied it because he thought this would make his music more acceptable to French players although it wasn't the tuning he used himself. Almost. I try to argue that there is room for doubt. And that the above is one option. I started 2 different threads, attempting to answer every detail, which is not good for an orderly discussion. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. Carre's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carre's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. Carre's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carre has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
Only the European Court at he Hague knows the principal issue here, and it issued a gag order apropos. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:38 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. Carre's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carre's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. Carre's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carre has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
I think Roman is right. I have spent enough time on this already and we have been over it all so many times in the past. There is really nothing more I wish to say. Monica - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Only the European Court at he Hague knows the principal issue here, and it issued a gag order apropos. RT - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:38 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. Carre's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carre's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. Carre's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carre has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
I think Lex is trying to argue that the French tuning originated with Carre and Corbetta just copied it because he thought this would make his music more acceptable to French players although it wasn't the tuning he used himself. One other small point - I said Ms.Rés. 2344 which is dated 1647 includes music in mixed style including a version of the repicco variation - which occurs in Bartolotti's 2nd book. I have said a version - not that it was copied from Bartolotti. It may have been a common element which several people incorporated into their variations. It occurs several times in the Gallot ms. and in Elizabeth Cromwell's book. Vale Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: Monica Hall ; Lex Eisenhardt Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. Hello you two, I've been away a couple of days: can you kindly remind me of the principal issue in this latest exchange? It surely can't be that you aim to base an entire case on Carre's book rgds Martyn From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 13:59 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - February 1671 indeed. We know that the printing of Corbetta's book was completed 31 October 1671. We don't know what he has changed or added between September 1670 and October 1671. I think it unlikely that Corbetta would have changed anything after being granted the licences because publications were subject to censorship. This was certainly the case in Spain I am not sure of the details in France. Like for example the preface. Carré's book could have been printed long before that date. If Corbetta knew the content of Carré's book he could easily have echoed the advice on the stringing of the fourth course. Whether he has echoed it or not is really immaterial. It doesn't prove that Corbetta disagreed with Carre. Carré's continuo examples are almost exclusively in pizzicato. Well - he hasn't indicated whether any of the chords should be strummed - probably for practical reasons to do with the printing.. But quite a few of them could be strummed. A lot of the chords are in the wrong inversions e.g.the first four chords on G re sol have the G on the 3rd course and the notes on the fourth course will sound below them. The first four chords on B fa si have the B flat on the fifth course where it will sound above the notes on the third and fourth fifth courses and so on. I can't list them all. Yes - he does seem to be confused as to which method of stringing he is using - or perhaps he is just using his common sense and placing them where it is practical to play them. Very different from the usual Italian battuto-pizzicato approach, and Carré has certainly not copied this from Corbetta's 1671 book. Yes - I agree he didn't copy these from Corbetta. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
I knew I shouldn't have held my breath RT From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk One other small point - I said To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc.........
. I'm still holding mine for the revelation of the principal issue.. MH From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011, 17:02 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Carre 'Anche' - etc. I knew I shouldn't have held my breath RT From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk One other small point - I said To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
