[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing

2018-01-04 Thread mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 
Dear Martyn, Ralf and anyone else who is interested

First of all, the instrument referred to as a “Cytarra” or “Gytarra” on 
p.49 of the pdf (it’s easiest to refer to these rather than the 
original folio numbers) appears to have 5 stopped courses and one 
unstopped bass string. If that is the case it is not a 5-course guitar. 
This should really be referred to as either chitarra (Italian) or 
guitarra (Spanish). Some of the tablature pieces are for a 5-course 
instrument with a sixth open bass.

The tuning chart on p.50 is for the “Cytarra A Mandore” which suggests 
to me that they are one and the same insrument – a 5-course instrument 
with 7 unstopped basses. The piece in tablature which follows is for 
this configuration. 

Just because something is called a “cytarra” doesn’t mean that it is a 
figure of 8 shaped instrument.

The tuning chart on p. 97 – ignoring the first interval – the first 
three intervals are the standard unison intervals of French tuning 
checks; however the last one indicates that the fifth course is in 
unison with  the 3rd course stopped at the 2nd fret. There is no 
indication that there is a low octave string on the 5th course. The 
first interval is odd; the first course can’t be in unison with the 3rd 
course stopped at the 5th fret. I can’t really read the heading – but I 
wonder if it is  Accord a whatever the Czech word for unison is.

As for placing the high octave strings on the thumb side of a course – 
Ruiz de Ribayaz mentions this in “Luz y Norte musical (1677). The fact 
that several 18th century sources indicate this explicitly suggests 
that it was the standard way of stringing – regardless of whether to 
our ears today this creates a satisfactory bass line. It is all a 
matter of how you strike the strings. Having the high string on the 
thumb side enables you to use the high octave string on its own more 
easily as Corrette indicates.

A happy New Year to everyone. 

Monica







Original Message
From: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Date: 04/01/2018 11:33 
To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk", "dshos...@mac.com"

Cc: "VihuelaList", "Baroque Lute List"

Subj: Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing

Dear Monica,
Comments on D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum

We briefly discussed this interesting MS some four years ago - partly 
in the context of the placement of the octave strings on the fourth 
(and fifth) course of the five course guitar. I also recall posting 
something on Wayne's baroque guitar list (or was it Early guitar.
ning?) around this time.  I was especially interested in the stated 
link in this MS between (aka mandora) and the guitar and possible 
implications for placement of the high octave strings on the fourth 
(and fifth?) course.
This MS contains pieces for five course guitar, mandora/callichon, and 
the viola di(a) gamb(a). Folio.3 has tunings for a five course 
instrument which the MS calls the 'Calledono' and folio 48 (gamba 
pieces and blanks between) gives elementary instructions for the five 
course guitar ' Fundamenta Chytarra'.
Of special interest is folio 48v headed 'Accorde Chytarra et Mandora' 
which unequivocally relates the two instruments and gives the identical 
tuning in note names for both: a, d, g, h(ie B), e.   Especially note 
that the note names for each course are all given as low case (even the 
extended basses, see below) and there is no octave or octave stringing 
indicated - accordingly from this alone, no conclusive judgements can 
be made whether the source requires re-entrant or low bourdons, or what 
arrangement for bass stringing..
This is followed by instructions for tuning seven addition bass course 
(presumably a theorboed guitar and/or mandora - both instruments not 
entirely unknown of course) from sixth down to twelfth course (notated 
by numbers 6 through to 12):  g,  f or f#, e, d, c or c#, h(B) or b
(Bb), a.  However only the first musical example employs these 
additional low basses - and even then only as an alternative to 
fingered fifth course which is also notated - presumably meant to 
illustrate the practice. 
Playing the music I was struck by how similar they pieces were in 
texture to contemporary works for mandora and also the guitar works 
attributed to Logy and also, and especially, those by Nathanial Diesel. 
It all made me wonder if the high octave on the 'bass' side was as 
general as we all nowadays usually suppose? From the texture of the 
music I'm confident that the Diesel is for a low octave on the bass 
side - it's also not that much later than the attrib Logy pieces. So I 
wonder if in German speaking (and Nordic lands) around this time (ie 
early/mid eighteenth century) the practice may have been closer to the 
5 course mandora where the low octave is certainly on the bass side. 
This paper below discusses some possible sources of Logy's works 

[VIHUELA] Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing

2018-01-04 Thread Martyn Hodgson 

   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" ; "dshos...@mac.com"
   
   Cc: VihuelaList ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Thursday, 4 January 2018, 11:33
   Subject: Re: Moravsky Manuscript AND five course guitar stringing
   Dear Monica,
   Comments on D 189 Moravske zemske muzeum
   We briefly discussed this interesting MS some four years ago - partly
   in the context of the placement of the octave strings on the fourth
   (and fifth) course of the five course guitar. I also recall posting
   something on Wayne's baroque guitar list (or was it Early
   guitar.ning?) around this time.  I was especially interested in the
   stated link in this MS between (aka mandora) and the guitar and
   possible implications for placement of the high octave strings on the
   fourth (and fifth?) course.
   This MS contains pieces for five course guitar, mandora/callichon, and
   the viola di(a) gamb(a). Folio.3 has tunings for a five course
   instrument which the MS calls the 'Calledono' and folio 48 (gamba
   pieces and blanks between) gives elementary instructions for the five
   course guitar ' Fundamenta Chytarra'.
   Of special interest is folio 48v headed 'Accorde Chytarra et Mandora'
   which unequivocally relates the two instruments and gives the identical
   tuning in note names for both: a, d, g, h(ie B), e.   Especially note
   that the note names for each course are all given as low case (even the
   extended basses, see below) and there is no octave or octave stringing
   indicated - accordingly from this alone, no conclusive judgements can
   be made whether the source requires re-entrant or low bourdons, or what
   arrangement for bass stringing..
   This is followed by instructions for tuning seven addition bass course
   (presumably a theorboed guitar and/or mandora - both instruments not
   entirely unknown of course) from sixth down to twelfth course (notated
   by numbers 6 through to 12):  g,  f or f#, e, d, c or c#, h(B) or
   b(Bb), a.  However only the first musical example employs these
   additional low basses - and even then only as an alternative to
   fingered fifth course which is also notated - presumably meant to
   illustrate the practice.
   Playing the music I was struck by how similar they pieces were in
   texture to contemporary works for mandora and also the guitar works
   attributed to Logy and also, and especially, those by Nathanial Diesel.
   It all made me wonder if the high octave on the 'bass' side was as
   general as we all nowadays usually suppose? From the texture of the
   music I'm confident that the Diesel is for a low octave on the bass
   side - it's also not that much later than the attrib Logy pieces. So I
   wonder if in German speaking (and Nordic lands) around this time (ie
   early/mid eighteenth century) the practice may have been closer to the
   5 course mandora where the low octave is certainly on the bass side.
   This paper below discusses some possible sources of Logy's works
   [1]http://bazhum.muzhp.pl/media//files/Musicology_Today/Musicology_Toda
   y-r2004-t1/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s77-95/Musicology_Today-r2004-t1-s
   77-95.pdf
   Placement of high octaves on the lower courses of the five course
   guitar
   The sources which clearly indicate the high octave on the 'bass' side
   of the five course are all eighteenth century:  principally
   Stradivari's (c 1710) instructions for stringing a sort of theorboed
   guitar; Diderot in 1757 and Merchi in 1761. A couple of iconographic
   sources may, or may not, indicate the earlier placement continuing into
   the eighteenth century ..
   The placement of the high octave on the 'bass' side in the French (aka
   Corbetta) tuning has nowadays been generally accepted and, in some
   circumstances, may seem to resolve some problems of voice leading etc -
   conversely it can also do exactly the opposite!  My view is that for
   much seventeenth century music, voice leading jumps etc resulting from
   a fully re-entrant or French tuning are simply a part of the
   instrument's novel texture and style, but that in the more treble and
   bass orientated works of the eighteenth century (eg the above) the bass
   string of the fourth (and fifth) course is more suitable if on the
   'bass' side of the guitar
   This is much based on my own experience in playing Diesel, the 'Losy'
   guitar works, D-189 MS and some other late 'guitar' sources on the
   mandora (with its bass strings on the bass side). In my view this
   arrangement gives a much more satisfactory musical result for the style
   and period of this later music. But, of course, this is something of a
   subjective judgement...
   Martyn
 __

   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk"