[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Dear Monica, Well - two extracts from what you have just written: - If you mean by this that another instrument could play just the bass line without filling in the harmony - there may be no prohibition but there is no indication either that this is what Marini intended. - .but as I have said already there is no reason to think that just playing the bass line is an option. These sum up the problem: in that you move directly from their being 'no prohibition' to saying 'that just playing the bass line' is not an option by way of an assumption this was not allowed by Marini. As already said, I beg to differ with you on this - as I do with your wish to avoid perfectly acceptable passing dissonance (one of the joys in music of this period) regards Martyn PS You write What you need to consider is how you would realize the bassline if the alfabeto were not there. But - I addressed this very issue -perhaps you missed where I mentioned the intrusive Eb (in the Cb/6 chord] if the bass was realised and the alfabeto also played. This is precisely why I very clearly stated that I should not expect a realised bass if the guitar played the alfabeto, since a continuo player (theorbo/keyboard) would normally play C b/6 rather than Dmaj over the C (- as I said). But by asking for a Dmaj chord here (with a 7th in the bass) Marini (or whoever) certainly provides a good alternative. The chord (Alfabeto .C.) combined with the bass line (alone) is then D7/4 - perfectly acceptable and then cadencing through D to the tonic G. M --- On Wed, 11/5/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 11 May, 2011, 14:49 Well - I'm not sure that there is any point in reviving this discussion - especially as I disagree with most of what you say. But for what it is worth... 1. I can find no prohibition to employing an instrument to play the bass line alone even when the guitar is used to play the alfabeto. If you mean by this that another instrument could play just the bass line without filling in the harmony - there may be no prohibition but there is no indication either that this is what Marini intended. Indeed, Marini's note below (yr trans) seems to me to directly allow such a possibility However, I think you believe this note means that no other instrument should ever play if the guitar plays alfabeto - I beg to differ. What it suggests to me is that he has provided alternative accompaniments. Otherwise in order to accommodate the different instruments he would have had to provided a simpler bass line. The idea was that the singer accompanied themselves in this repertoire - not that there was a group of continuo players. Here is the quote again - for reference. Note that in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while by paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the other, since the guitar lacks manyproper consonances. 2. A good case of this is that one we've already considered in Il verno where we both agree there is an F6/5 chord (you use different terminology and call it the first inversion of a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - Dm7). However I see nothing 'wrong' with just playing a plain Fmaj chord (alfabeto G) against the d in the voice to give the overall 6/5 chord Nor do I if the guitar is the only accompanying instrument. whereas, if I understand you correctly, you think the alfabeto is incorrect and the guitarist should play a Dm chord (or Dm7 if the Marini's alfabeto allowed such). No - I don't think that. What I disagree with is the idea that the guitar should play an F major chord against the G in the bass. I think it is essential to include a D in the chord over the G bass because this defines it as a dominant chord. And probably omit the A which is the dominant 9th. (I'll send you my transcription separately). Finally, re your comment about the closing bars of of Desio di sguardi on p.10: you write 'At both cadences the 4-3 suspension in the guitar part comes before the bass line has arrived at the root of the chord.' This is just a similar situation as in Il verno - It isn't the same. In Il verno the bass line arrives at the root of the dominant before the 4-3 suspension in the guitar part. In Desio si guardi
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Dear Monica, On going through my backlog of messages, I see you sent a couple further to our discussion Marini's Scherzi 1622 whilst I was away. In general I think we seem to agree on many points, except: 1. I can find no prohibition to employing an instrument to play the bass line alone even when the guitar is used to play the alfabeto. Indeed, Marini's note below (yr trans) seems to me to directly allow such a possibility by remarking that the restrictions imposed by the stock alfabeto may not always allow the realised bass and guitar chords to be identical (the common 6/5 chords are a particular problem). However, I think you believe this note means that no other instrument should ever play if the guitar plays alfabeto - I beg to differ. Note that in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while by paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances. 2. A good case of this is that one we've already considered in Il verno where we both agree there is an F6/5 chord (you use different terminology and call it the first inversion of a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - Dm7). However I see nothing 'wrong' with just playing a plain Fmaj chord (alfabeto G) against the d in the voice to give the overall 6/5 chord whereas, if I understand you correctly, you think the alfabeto is incorrect and the guitarist should play a Dm chord (or Dm7 if the Marini's alfabeto allowed such). Finally, re your comment about the closing bars of of Desio di sguardi on p.10: you write 'At both cadences the 4-3 suspension in the guitar part comes before the bass line has arrived at the root of the chord.' This is just a similar situation as in Il verno - M (or the jobbing guitarist) simply didn't have the alfabeto available (as he tells us). But please note that if the guitar played alfabeto I would not expect the bass to be realised (ie harmony filled out) so the intrusive Eb (I presume this is what you particularly object to) would not appear... regards as ever Martyn -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Well - I'm not sure that there is any point in reviving this discussion - especially as I disagree with most of what you say. But for what it is worth... 1. I can find no prohibition to employing an instrument to play the bass line alone even when the guitar is used to play the alfabeto. If you mean by this that another instrument could play just the bass line without filling in the harmony - there may be no prohibition but there is no indication either that this is what Marini intended. Indeed, Marini's note below (yr trans) seems to me to directly allow such a possibility However, I think you believe this note means that no other instrument should ever play if the guitar plays alfabeto - I beg to differ. What it suggests to me is that he has provided alternative accompaniments. Otherwise in order to accommodate the different instruments he would have had to provided a simpler bass line. The idea was that the singer accompanied themselves in this repertoire - not that there was a group of continuo players. Here is the quote again - for reference. Note that in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while by paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the other, since the guitar lacks manyproper consonances. 2. A good case of this is that one we've already considered in Il verno where we both agree there is an F6/5 chord (you use different terminology and call it the first inversion of a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - Dm7). However I see nothing 'wrong' with just playing a plain Fmaj chord (alfabeto G) against the d in the voice to give the overall 6/5 chord Nor do I if the guitar is the only accompanying instrument. whereas, if I understand you correctly, you think the alfabeto is incorrect and the guitarist should play a Dm chord (or Dm7 if the Marini's alfabeto allowed such). No - I don't think that. What I disagree with is the idea that the guitar should play an F major chord against the G in the bass. I think it is essential to include a D in the chord over the G bass because this defines it as a dominant chord. And probably omit the A which is the dominant 9th. (I'll send you my transcription separately). Finally, re your comment about the closing bars of of Desio di sguardi on p.10: you write 'At both cadences the 4-3 suspension in the guitar part comes before the bass line has arrived at the root of the chord.' This is just a similar situation as in Il verno - It isn't the same. In Il verno the bass line arrives at the root of the dominant before the 4-3 suspension in the guitar part. In Desio si guardi the guitar introduces the 4-3 suspension before the bass has arrived at the root of the dominant chord to which it belongs. There are several places where this happens. They are not meant to be played together. But please note that if the guitar played alfabeto I would not expect the bass to be realised (ie harmony filled out) so the intrusive Eb (I presume this is what you particularly object to) would not appear... but as I have said already there is no reason to think that just playing the bass line is an option. What you need to consider is how you would realize the bassline if the alfabeto were not there. The alfabeto is misleading. As ever Monica It is not what I object to. I think the 4-3 suspension is a substitution for the the standard progression ii7 V4-3 I regards as ever Martyn -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
On 11 May 2011 15:49, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: The alfabeto is misleading. As ever Which is a good summary of the discussion. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the list. Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. Monica - Original Message - From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 3:05 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) On 11 May 2011 15:49, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: The alfabeto is misleading. As ever Which is a good summary of the discussion. ;-) David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
On Wed, 11 May 2011 15:43:48 +0100, Monica Hall wrote Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the list. Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. Hello, where do these figurs come from - the original print? This looks like Edward Elgar on mind-altering drugs. If this is Marini that man should have taken some introductory counterpoint class :-) Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
There are no figures in the original - these are added by me to define the harmony and they are correct. (The programme I use won't put them one on top of the other). The voice part and bass part are as in the original. The point at issue is - what is the first chord you would play in the penultimate bar over the G in the bass? The C and F in the voice part are the dominant 7th and the suspended 4th held over from the previous 6/5 chord - and the D is also held over from the previous chord and becomes part of the next chord the dominant chord. You need to play the two examples to understand how they work. I think the first is more likely than the second but you could hold the whole of the D minor chord over the G and resolve each separate note one by one as in the second version. Monica - Original Message - From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:51 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) On Wed, 11 May 2011 15:43:48 +0100, Monica Hall wrote Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the list. Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. Hello, where do these figurs come from - the original print? This looks like Edward Elgar on mind-altering drugs. If this is Marini that man should have taken some introductory counterpoint class :-) Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
On Wed, 11 May 2011 17:37:33 +0100, Monica Hall wrote There are no figures in the original - That's what I feared. these are added by me to define the harmony and they are correct. (The programme I use won't put them one on top of the other). The voice part and bass part are as in the original. Correct according to what reference. The fact that you constantly refer to inversions of chords indicates that you think in terms of 19ct. harmony. This is at least problematic in the contoext of (early) 17ct. music (well, it's even problematic for mid-18ct music). Gereralizing: 17ct sonorities can and should be thought of as the resultr of certain linear movements. All disonances are the result of a temporal displacement of voices progressing in consonant movements. So, a dissonance needs to be properly prepared as well as properly resolved. Your 7th in measure 4 just dissapears. And the 5 of the 56 over f in measure 3 is considered a dissonance and needs to resolve as well (all resolutions must progress downwards). The point at issue is - what is the first chord you would play in the penultimate bar over the G in the bass? Given just the top and the bass. I'd boldly assume an error and play a hemiola: half note eb, half note f, half note g. The C and F in the voice part are the dominant 7th and the suspended 4th held over from the previous 6/5 chord - and the D is also held over from the previous chord and becomes part of the next chord the dominant chord. There is no dominant in the style. And the sevens over the first note of a falling 5th in the bass typically appears as a passing note 8-7 You need to play the two examples to understand how they work. I did :-) And I don't understand your edition. What's that (editorial) e-natural doing over an a flat in the continuo? Pretty much out of mode here. Come on, this is just a simple little tune in first mode. I think the first is more likely than the second but you could hold the whole of the D minor chord over the G and resolve each separate note one by one as in the second version. The second one is so far of any compositional conventions of the 17 century (harmonic speed, thesis/arsis placement of harmonic changes etc.) that I won't comment on it. Cheers, RalfD Monica - Original Message - From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:51 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) On Wed, 11 May 2011 15:43:48 +0100, Monica Hall wrote Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the list. Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. Hello, where do these figurs come from - the original print? This looks like Edward Elgar on mind-altering drugs. If this is Marini that man should have taken some introductory counterpoint class :-) Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Correct according to what reference. The fact that you constantly refer to inversions of chords indicates that you think in terms of 19ct. harmony. There are different ways of referring to these things, and different ways of trying to explain to other people what you mean in a way that they will understand. in consonant movements. So, a dissonance needs to be properly prepared as well as properly resolved. I am well aware of this and all the parts in my example are prepared and resolved correctly according to the rules of counterpoint. Your 7th in measure 4 just dissapears. No it doesn't. It moves via the G to the E in the final chord - a perfectly acceptable resolution F G E. It doesn't have to fall immediately - it can make a melodic detour to another note in the chord en route. And the 5 of the 56 over f in measure 3 is considered a dissonance and needs to resolve as well (all resolutions must progress downwards). Which it does at the cadence - it is repeated and becomes a suspended 4th over the G in the bass and then falls to B natural at the cadence.Its resolution is simply delayed.Otherwise the suspended 4th will be unprepared. The point at issue is - what is the first chord you would play in the penultimate bar over the G in the bass? Given just the top and the bass. I'd boldly assume an error and play a hemiola: half note eb, half note f, half note g. When I suggested that - I was told that this was trying to iron out things in a Victorian manner! Among other derogatory things! That the combination of an F major chord over G in the bass was typcial of the style! Can't win obviously. There is no dominant in the style. And the sevens over the first note of a falling 5th in the bass typically appears as a passing note 8-7. But in this instance the F in the voice part appears out of the blue. There is no falling 5th in the bass. I did :-) And I don't understand your edition. Perhaps you need to go back to school and learn some more counterpoint. What's that (editorial) e-natural doing over an a flat in the continuo? Pretty much out of mode here. The original has only one flat in the key signature. In the original flats have been added to the semibreves but not to the passing crotchet. Arguably according to the rules of musica ficta it could rise a semitone rather than a tone. It is complicated by the fact that the last phrase is unbarred and accidentals are not usually cancelled. The editorial brackets are there to indicate uncertainty. I think the first is more likely than the second but you could hold the whole of the D minor chord over the G and resolve each separate note one by one as in the second version. The second one is so far of any compositional conventions of the 17 century (harmonic speed, thesis/arsis placement of harmonic changes etc.) that I won't comment on it. Well I am glad you think so - because the reason for all this is because it was being suggested that an F major chord should be played over the bass note G - a proposition which I think is unlikely. It just goes to show that no-one really knows what the compositional conventions of 17th century really were. Cheers Monica - Original Message - From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:51 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) On Wed, 11 May 2011 15:43:48 +0100, Monica Hall wrote Well - if any one else wants to see my musical example I put it on my www.earlyguitar.ning.com page with the scores - the first in the list. Comments and corrections to the harmony welcome. Hello, where do these figurs come from - the original print? This looks like Edward Elgar on mind-altering drugs. If this is Marini that man should have taken some introductory counterpoint class :-) Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Stephen Stubbs, while we were playing through some Kapsberger songs, suggested that these dissonances were meant to be. The one I recall the most was a G major in the alfabeto against a g minor in the written continuo. Well - I think he is wrong!!! Simply - whoever added the alfabeto did so just adding whatever chord fitted the bass note without taking into account the voice parts. As I said in an earlier message.. I don't know if you read Martin Shepherd's article about Dalza in Lute News 89 but he has demonstrated clearly that there are a lot of misprints in the relevant printed book. It is not enough to play any old nonsense because it appears in a 500 year old source. In my experience a lot of so-called experts don't know very much about how music was printed etc... There are songs with only text and alfabeto, no bass, no melody...can't quite remember just now who it was. There are lots of sources which include the lyrics only of the songs, some of which have alfabeto - but this doesn't indicate that they are specifically to be accompanied on the guitar. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Oh dear me no - can't agree here either. He's simply leaving as many options open as possible. What he avoids saying (except by implication on the title page), is his preferred method of performance; mine, as already said, is with theorbo with voice for songs and theorbo with violin for ritornelli which I believe was probably his too. Where doesn't the bass fit the alfabeto? Are you sure it's not just the same sort of situation we don't agree in Il Verno (ie uses an Fmaj chord to accompant an apparent Dm harmony but in figured bass speak is simply the v common 65 chord) yrs ttcod Martyn --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 17:53 I just don't agree with you that the bass part in Marini 1622 is never to be played when the guitar strums alfabeto - P.S. What Marini himself says is Note that in some places you will find that the alfabeto does not fit with the bass line. This is because it is the wish of the author to accompany the voice in as many ways as possible rather than while by paying heed to the requirements of one instrument, he is constrained by those of the other, since the guitar lacks many proper consonances. Which to me at least suggest that he didn't expect the guitar to play with the bass line. And there are places where the alfabeto doesn't fit the bass. Monica in haste Ditto to you about not reading emails - see what I wrote about using a tiorba. You are also wrong in not considering the tiorba a 'bass instrument'; - by bass instrument I don't think the Old Ones automatically thought - aha! - this means a bowed bass! Pip! pip! Martyn --- On Wed, 27/4/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 27 April, 2011, 12:41 Hello Martyn Well - I prefer an F maj chord here not only because it is what M (or whoever) plainly indicates in the alfabeto but also because it provides a more effective combination with the upper vocal D to give a 65 chord without weakening the effect by unecessarily doubling the harmony on the guitar - I think this is what the 'arranger' had in mind. I think you are guilty of not reading what I have said! Which is that - I do not think that the guitar alfabeto is to be played with the bass part in the Marini songs. The alfabeto is irrelevant. The voice part and bass part together imply - in modern academic speak - the 1st inversion of the minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale. That is what I would play (and repeat if pressed) if accompanying the piece on the keyboard or on the theorbo if I had one and knew how to play it. Imposing a the minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale onto the root of the dominant creates an even better dissonance than an F major chord. A chord of the dominant 9th with a 4-3 suspension to be precise rather than a measly dominant 7th. Since the F chord is either played with a vocal D or a transient bass G I can't agree the music is poorer because it 'moves into the major mode sooner' (in any case, to be fair to the numerous composers who used the unadorned sequence Subdom, Dom, Tonic there's nothing 'wrong' with this simple cadential formula). In a minor key - this piece is in C minor - the triad on the subdominant has a minor 3rd. The guitar chord is not going to be imposed on the not so transient G in the bass (it lasts thoughout the whole bar!) - if I am playing it because I wont be including a G in the chord or employing a bass player of any sort! There's no general(NB) prohibition against employing a bass instrument (tiorba, bowed bass, etc) with a strummed guitar to play an independent melodic bass line if one is written (especially if it has some interest as in Il Verno). Again you haven't read what I have been saying. I don't think that it is in keeping with what was considered to be stylistically appropriate when accompanying these songs. I don't know about general
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Dear Monica, Well, here I can certainly agree with you: Gmin with Gmaj seems crackers. But out of interest could you give me the specific example quoted? Are we sure it's not S Stubbs thinking it ought to be Gm? rgds Martyn --- On Thu, 28/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc) To: Dominic Robillard ubaldrosa...@hotmail.de Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 28 April, 2011, 10:46 Stephen Stubbs, while we were playing through some Kapsberger songs, suggested that these dissonances were meant to be. The one I recall the most was a G major in the alfabeto against a g minor in the written continuo. Well - I think he is wrong!!! Simply - whoever added the alfabeto did so just adding whatever chord fitted the bass note without taking into account the voice parts. As I said in an earlier message.. I don't know if you read Martin Shepherd's article about Dalza in Lute News 89 but he has demonstrated clearly that there are a lot of misprints in the relevant printed book. It is not enough to play any old nonsense because it appears in a 500 year old source. In my experience a lot of so-called experts don't know very much about how music was printed etc... There are songs with only text and alfabeto, no bass, no melody...can't quite remember just now who it was. There are lots of sources which include the lyrics only of the songs, some of which have alfabeto - but this doesn't indicate that they are specifically to be accompanied on the guitar. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Passing dissonances (was Marini, Granata etc)
Dear Martyn And yes, yet again, I would hold (repeat if necessary) the Fmaj chord over the passing dissonant g in the bass to then resolve through the 43 cadence. I don't understand why would you play an F major chord at all. If I were playing the theorbo or keyboard (I have tried in on the keyboard) I would play a D7 minor 1st inversion chord on the bass note F - which is what the voice and bass parts imply - and repeat it on the bass note G. If I were playing the guitar I would not have a separate bass player at all because as I have said I don't think that is what is intended. But there is also another point which I think is important - with the guitar playing a plain F major chord the music moves into the major mode sooner - creating a different effect - there is no dissonance in the guitar part aside from the 4-3 suspension. The problem is that it all time Regards with a smile Monica --- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 13:17 Dear Martyn, The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a bass F That is exactly what I said. It is the first inversion of a minor 7th chord on the 2nd degree of the scale and as you say it is very common in this repertoire. The notes which the chord includes are D F A C. C is the 7th and F is the 3rd and is in the bass. What you call it is immaterial. The voice part is D E F C. The E is a passing note (and it is not clear whether it should be E flat or E natural). The other three notes define the chord. However on the guitar, where common alfabeto has no discrete symbols for such chords, the arranger is obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th in the upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the guitar (ie an F major chord). Again this is exactly what I said. There is no problem as far as I am concerned with the guitar alfabeto here. in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the harmony over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit more harmonic frisson. I think you are confusing the alfabeto with the continuo part. Repeating the F major chord is Ok if there is no G in the bass. You seemed to be saying that you would repeat the F major chord - omitting the D - which is no longer present in the voice part. What I would do is repeat Dminor7 over the G in the bass. I was at first inclined to omit the A - but it is in fact the 9th of the chord - so no problem. It is a dominant 9th chord with a suspended 4th. So coming full circle to our original discussion, I point you in the direction of Granata's 1674 collection: page 10 second half of bar 13: But this is a different progression altogether. It's a major 7th chord on the 4th degree of the scale or really just a passing 6/4 with combined with a lower auxiliary note in the bass. Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very pieces for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much earlier in this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever) didn't therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his 1622 collection is beyond me I think you are jumping the gun here - in 1622 the guitar only played alfabeto. Granata's pieces are in lute style with only occasional alfabeto chords. Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now rather more convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar sols (tho' might have been played as such): Well - yes I agree with that. Rgds Monica --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18 Dear Martyn It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held over a G which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary passing dissonance which is then resolved. But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The note in the voice part is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D minor chord - F A D.If you are going to play F A C, the voice part is still singing
