[VIHUELA] Re: Stradivarius sstringing instructions
Well - the writer seems to be in favour of a string length of 61.5 cms. He is primarily concerned with the music of Sanz and seems to be suggesting that "Italian masters" strung their guitars with a bourdon only on the 4th course, but high octave strings on the second, third and fifth courses. He even goes so far as to suggest that the fourth course was triple strung with the three strings spanning two octaves although he admits that that might be problematic. The ten strings are to be used independently. All this is supposed to eliminate from Sanz' music the skips of a 7th or a 9th which he objects to. The only reason why I am thinking about all this is because I am reconsidering the stringing of the guitarre theorbee. As ever Monica > On 26 June 2019 at 10:02 Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > > And a surprise to me too - since this suggestion isn't supported by the > evidence of Strad's stringing instructions! > > For example the violin stringing sizes of Tartini/Riccati (eighteenth > century) applied to the guitar: > - on the fourth course the instructions pretty clearly suggest a low > bourdon on the 'treble' side which is thicker (0.95/0.89mm) than the third > course (0.70/0.73mm) (the fourth high octave treble is 0.55mm); > - on the fifth course the bourdon is even thicker at 1.13/1.06mm with a > high octave treble of 0.66/0.69mm. > > Yes, as said, the analysis was a bit speculative - but not so much out as > to result in stringing at the wrong octave! > > Further, is your proposer an advocate of tiny five course guitars? - for > a string to reach d'' (ie an octave and a tone above middle C) without > snapping would require a string length of only around 35cm... > I know of one recent publication which promoted this diminutive sort of size > for early four course guitars (in fact unlikely in my view), but not for the > later five course instrument where we have so much iconographic and other > evidence on size. > > regards > > Martyn > > On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 09:33:51 BST, Monica Hall > wrote: > > > Hi Martyn > > Thank you for this. I've read your article several times and I think I > have understood it although when it comes anything mathematical I am > seriously challenged. > > What I was really wondering was - these instructions obviously apply to > the chitarra atiorbata but should we assume that they also apply to a > "standard" 5-course guitar without additional open basses? > > One of the reasons for raising this is that recently someone has > suggested that these instructions indicate that there were no bourdons on the > 4th and 5th courses. The 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant with high octave > strings - instead of being aA d'd they were tuned a'a d" d'. > > This came as rather a surprise to me. > > As ever > > Monica > > > > > On 26 June 2019 at 09:10 Martyn Hodgson < hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk > mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk > wrote: > > > > > >Dear Monica, > > > >Have a look at FoMRHI Comm 663 (Bulletin 41, October 1985) in which > I report on two early sources of recorded violin string diameters (Tartini's > and Riccati's) and their application to Strad's instructions for the > chitarra tiorbata. > > > >Here's the link > > > >https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf > > > >I presume Strad related more to the violin and hence their string > sizes since these were such a substantial part of his output and more > common I also briefly discuss the translation of his instructions which > is generally in line with what you say below. > > > >I applied these sizes to guitar stringing and arrived at average > tension of artound 3.2Kg per string and a total tension on the chitarra > tiorbata of around 34Kg. But I thought it prudent to express some caution > then, as I'll also do now:" The speculative nature of some of the > previous analysis means that few unequivocal conclusions may be drawn" > Nevertheless, I believed then, and still do, it gives a reasonable > indication of the tensions employed. > > > >regards > > > >Martyn > > > >On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 07:31:05 BST, Monica Hall < > mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > > > I have been puzzling over the Stradivarius stringing instructions > for > > the chitarra ttiorbata again. > > > > I have two queries. > > > > Why should he compare the strings of the third, fourth and fifth > > courses to violin strings rather than those on the (presumably) > > standard 5-course guitar. Does this imply that they should be of a > > different thickness to the strings used on the guitar. > > > > Also - the first string
[VIHUELA] Re: Stradivarius sstringing instructions
And a surprise to me too - since this suggestion isn't supported by the evidence of Strad's stringing instructions! For example the violin stringing sizes of Tartini/Riccati (eighteenth century) applied to the guitar: - on the fourth course the instructions pretty clearly suggest a low bourdon on the 'treble' side which is thicker (0.95/0.89mm) than the third course (0.70/0.73mm) (the fourth high octave treble is 0.55mm); - on the fifth course the bourdon is even thicker at 1.13/1.06mm with a high octave treble of 0.66/0.69mm. Yes, as said, the analysis was a bit speculative - but not so much out as to result in stringing at the wrong octave! Further, is your proposer an advocate of tiny five course guitars? - for a string to reach d'' (ie an octave and a tone above middle C) without snapping would require a string length of only around 35cm... I know of one recent publication which promoted this diminutive sort of size for early four course guitars (in fact unlikely in my view), but not for the later five course instrument where we have so much iconographic and other evidence on size. regards Martyn On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 09:33:51 BST, Monica Hall wrote: Hi Martyn Thank you for this. I've read your article several times and I think I have understood it although when it comes anything mathematical I am seriously challenged. What I was really wondering was - these instructions obviously apply to the chitarra atiorbata but should we assume that they also apply to a "standard" 5-course guitar without additional open basses? One of the reasons for raising this is that recently someone has suggested that these instructions indicate that there were no bourdons on the 4th and 5th courses. The 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant with high octave strings - instead of being aA d'd they were tuned a'a d" d'. This came as rather a surprise to me. As ever Monica > On 26 June 2019 at 09:10 Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > >Dear Monica, > >Have a look at FoMRHI Comm 663 (Bulletin 41, October 1985) in which I report on two early sources of recorded violin string diameters (Tartini's and Riccati's) and their application to Strad's instructions for the chitarra tiorbata. > >Here's the link > >[2]https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf > >I presume Strad related more to the violin and hence their string sizes since these were such a substantial part of his output and more common I also briefly discuss the translation of his instructions which is generally in line with what you say below. > >I applied these sizes to guitar stringing and arrived at average tension of artound 3.2Kg per string and a total tension on the chitarra tiorbata of around 34Kg. But I thought it prudent to express some caution then, as I'll also do now:" The speculative nature of some of the previous analysis means that few unequivocal conclusions may be drawn"Nevertheless, I believed then, and still do, it gives a reasonable indication of the tensions employed. > >regards > >Martyn > >On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 07:31:05 BST, Monica Hall <[3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > > I have been puzzling over the Stradivarius stringing instructions for > the chitarra ttiorbata again. > > I have two queries. > > Why should he compare the strings of the third, fourth and fifth > courses to violin strings rather than those on the (presumably) > standard 5-course guitar. Does this imply that they should be of a > different thickness to the strings used on the guitar. > > Also - the first string of the violin is tuned more or less to e'' > whereas the third course of the guitar is tuned g - an octave & a 6th > lower. There is a considerable difference in string length between the > violin and guitar. Would this make it practicable to tune the strings > to completely different pitches. > > Here are the instructions. > > [First & second strings: These must be like two guitar first strings > (cantini) > Third & fourth strings: These must be like two guitar second strings > (sotanelle)] > > Fifth & sixth strings: These must be like two thick violin first > strings (cantini) g > > Seventh string: This must be a violin second string (canto) d > > Eighth string: This must be a guitar second string (sotanella) d' > > Ninth string: This must be a thicker violin second string (canto) a > > Tenth string: This must be a violin first string (cantino) a' > > They have never really seemed to
[VIHUELA] Re: Stradivarius sstringing instructions
Hi Martyn Thank you for this. I've read your article several times and I think I have understood it although when it comes anything mathematical I am seriously challenged. What I was really wondering was - these instructions obviously apply to the chitarra atiorbata but should we assume that they also apply to a "standard" 5-course guitar without additional open basses? One of the reasons for raising this is that recently someone has suggested that these instructions indicate that there were no bourdons on the 4th and 5th courses. The 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant with high octave strings - instead of being aA d'd they were tuned a'a d" d'. This came as rather a surprise to me. As ever Monica > On 26 June 2019 at 09:10 Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > > Dear Monica, > > Have a look at FoMRHI Comm 663 (Bulletin 41, October 1985) in which I > report on two early sources of recorded violin string diameters (Tartini's > and Riccati's) and their application to Strad's instructions for the > chitarra tiorbata. > > Here's the link > > https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf > > I presume Strad related more to the violin and hence their string sizes > since these were such a substantial part of his output and more common > I also briefly discuss the translation of his instructions which is generally > in line with what you say below. > > I applied these sizes to guitar stringing and arrived at average tension > of artound 3.2Kg per string and a total tension on the chitarra tiorbata of > around 34Kg. But I thought it prudent to express some caution then, as I'll > also do now:" The speculative nature of some of the previous analysis > means that few unequivocal conclusions may be drawn"Nevertheless, I > believed then, and still do, it gives a reasonable indication of the tensions > employed. > > regards > > Martyn > > On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 07:31:05 BST, Monica Hall > wrote: > > > I have been puzzling over the Stradivarius stringing instructions for > the chitarra ttiorbata again. > > I have two queries. > > Why should he compare the strings of the third, fourth and fifth > courses to violin strings rather than those on the (presumably) > standard 5-course guitar. Does this imply that they should be of a > different thickness to the strings used on the guitar. > > Also - the first string of the violin is tuned more or less to e'' > whereas the third course of the guitar is tuned g - an octave & a 6th > lower. There is a considerable difference in string length between the > violin and guitar. Would this make it practicable to tune the strings > to completely different pitches. > > Here are the instructions. > > [First & second strings: These must be like two guitar first strings > (cantini) > Third & fourth strings: These must be like two guitar second strings > (sotanelle)] > > Fifth & sixth strings: These must be like two thick violin first > strings (cantini) g > > Seventh string: This must be a violin second string (canto) d > > Eighth string: This must be a guitar second string (sotanella) dâ > > Ninth string: This must be a thicker violin second string (canto) a > > Tenth string: This must be a violin first string (cantino) aâ > > They have never really seemed to make sense to me but perhaps I am > missing something. > > As ever > > Monica > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[VIHUELA] Re: Stradivarius sstringing instructions
Dear Monica, Have a look at FoMRHI Comm 663 (Bulletin 41, October 1985) in which I report on two early sources of recorded violin string diameters (Tartini's and Riccati's) and their application to Strad's instructions for the chitarra tiorbata. Here's the link [1]https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf I presume Strad related more to the violin and hence their string sizes since these were such a substantial part of his output and more common I also briefly discuss the translation of his instructions which is generally in line with what you say below. I applied these sizes to guitar stringing and arrived at average tension of artound 3.2Kg per string and a total tension on the chitarra tiorbata of around 34Kg. But I thought it prudent to express some caution then, as I'll also do now:" The speculative nature of some of the previous analysis means that few unequivocal conclusions may be drawn"Nevertheless, I believed then, and still do, it gives a reasonable indication of the tensions employed. regards Martyn On Wednesday, 26 June 2019, 07:31:05 BST, Monica Hall wrote: I have been puzzling over the Stradivarius stringing instructions for the chitarra ttiorbata again. I have two queries. Why should he compare the strings of the third, fourth and fifth courses to violin strings rather than those on the (presumably) standard 5-course guitar. Does this imply that they should be of a different thickness to the strings used on the guitar. Also - the first string of the violin is tuned more or less to e'' whereas the third course of the guitar is tuned g - an octave & a 6th lower. There is a considerable difference in string length between the violin and guitar. Would this make it practicable to tune the strings to completely different pitches. Here are the instructions. [First & second strings: These must be like two guitar first strings (cantini) Third & fourth strings: These must be like two guitar second strings (sotanelle)] Fifth & sixth strings: These must be like two thick violin first strings (cantini) g Seventh string: This must be a violin second string (canto) d Eighth string: This must be a guitar second string (sotanella) d' Ninth string: This must be a thicker violin second string (canto) a Tenth string: This must be a violin first string (cantino) a' They have never really seemed to make sense to me but perhaps I am missing something. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-041.pdf 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
