[VIHUELA] Re: Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Dear group members, You are all correct with your observations about Pisador and the fourth course: it is the only specific reference to tuning both strings of the course to the same pitch. By the same token, the only reference to the tuning of both strings of one course is the reference to Fuenllana tuning the strings a third apart. I haven't got Bill Hearn's article in front of me, but I think we need to consider as much what isn't said by the authors. Milan, for example, always refers to each course in the singular as a cuerda. He is clearly telling us that he regarded as the sound of each course to be one sound. I don't think he is telling us that we should have our vihuelas strung with single-string courses, but if he used octaves instead of unisons, then their role was certainly to enhance the qualities of the fundamental, and not to make it sound like an octave. So if you want to use octaves on your vihuelas, and want your instrument to sound in a way that Luis Milan might have approved of, I would recommend you try to match the strings so that the octave is imperceptible. It is also narrow to draw conclusions about instrumental practice on the basis of the local standards of string making. We actually know very little about string making in Spain. I have read some documents from the 14th century that ally string makers with tanners, but other references to string making as a homespun cottage industry in the 16th century: one violero in Valladolid had strings made for him by a married couple in Burgos. But I have also found documents in Spain showing that they imported vihuela strings from Italy, France and the Low Countries. From this I can only conclude that there was sufficient interest in Spain in getting good strings for Spanish players and makers to go to great lengths to identify good strings abroad and organise their importation. Not too different to today, really. John On 9 Sep 2010, at 04:39 , Monica Hall wrote: I seem never to have replied to this. There does seem to be some evidence for unison stringing on the 4th courses of the vihuela in Pisador and Bermudo but that's all. In an paper in Estudios sobre la vihuela Mimmo Peruffo made an interesting point - that it is unlikely that the Spanish had discovered a way of making good gut bass strings which was unknown elsewhere in Europe. This would be as if they were driving round in motor cars whilst everyone else was in horse drawn carriages. I suppose it is possible that the Spanish were prepared to put up with the poor sound of low gut basses. But surely octave doubling was acceptable in the 16th and 17th century. Regards Monica - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd [1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk To: Vihuelalist [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:53 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Thanks, Monica. So as far as the vihuela is concerned, we have evidence for a unison 4th course but no evidence at all about the 5th and 6th courses? The surviving music for vihuela dates from a time when the lute was commonly strung in octaves on courses 4-6, and from a string technology point of view there is therefore every reason to suppose that octaves were required. It seems to me that modern wound strings have made it too easy for us to assume that unisons were the norm for the vihuela. As I said, the presence of octaves on the lute seems to have been no barrier for those addicted to polyphonic intabulations, so the idea that the vihuela repertoire is dominated by such pieces is no argument in favour of unisons either. Best wishes, Martin Monica Hall wrote: The original article arguing for octave stringing was by Bill Hearn in LSA Quarterly, Aug. 1994. There was some correspondence between him and Donald Gill in LSA Quarterly Feb 1995, and May 1996. The other piece of evidence for unison stringing is from Bermudo who mentions that the 4-course guitar has octaves stringing in the 4th course like the vihuela de Flandres and by inference, he suggests that the vihuela did not. Monica - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd [3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk To: Lute List [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Vihuelalist [5]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:37 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt The main piece of evidence for unison stringing on the lute in late 16th century Italy is the statement (where? can anyone help? I think it's an English source) that Fabrizio Dentice introduced
[VIHUELA] Re: Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Thank you Martin Unison stringing on the 6th (and lower) course has, of course, been mentioned by a number of writers and, as you say, the previous belief that the vihuela had unisons (based on a misreading) has now been seriously questioned. I think I'm more interested/puzzled about possible octave stringing on the 4th and 5th courses in the later 16th century - other than occassional passing references I can't recall any scholarly work being published on this issue. Have I missed something? I think there's a belief that the improvements in string technology, which allowed added bass courses in the later 16th century, would have 'improved' the sound of a unison 5th course and so would have been adopted, but I'm not aware of any direct evidence for this. Martyn --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt To: Lute List l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 7:37 The main piece of evidence for unison stringing on the lute in late 16th century Italy is the statement (where? can anyone help? I think it's an English source) that Fabrizio Dentice introduced it. And does Vincenzo Galilei mention it? For what it's worth, Caravaggio's paintings seem to show unisons. The assumption of unison stringing for the vihuela, on the other hand, does seem to be just that (John Ward's 1955 PhD thesis), the only solid piece of evidence being Pisador's tuning instructions which imply a unison 4th course. There is an interesting article in LSAQ some years ago called something like The shaky case for unison stringing on the vihuela - sorry I can't remember the author or the year. Again, can someone provide the exact reference? Best wishes, Martin Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Jean-michel, Put a colon after 'octaves' as '.../*strung in octaves: outside Italy*/' - I think you'll see what I meant I didn't think the meaning wasn't obvious but I'm sorry if you were momentarily misled. As you'll see I do, of course, allow the earlier Italian lute in octave tuning. But, interestingly and to extend this thread a little, for the later 16th century Italian repertoire do we really know how the lute was expected to be strung? I'm not sure that octaves on 4th and 5th as well as the 6th (and lower) courses were still general by, say the 1570s. Do you? Certainly the 17th century lute doesn't generally seem to have had octaves on the 4th and 5th (people like Piccinnini, Melli and Santino Garsi), so when did the change take place? [Martin, have you done anything on this?] MH --- On *Tue, 31/8/10, jean-michel Catherinot /[1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com/* wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot [2]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt To: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lute List [4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martin Shepherd [5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 15:03 Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing without octaves on the lute! And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music with plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the vihuela, no octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an ambiguous tuning chart in Pisador. So... --- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk [8]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co .uk a ecrit : De: Martyn Hodgson [9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk [10]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.c o.uk Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt A: Vihuelalist [11]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu [12]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth. edu, Lute List [13]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu [14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu , Martin Shepherd [15]mar...@luteshop.co.uk [16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34 And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the lute was always strung in
[VIHUELA] Re: Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Thanks, Monica. So as far as the vihuela is concerned, we have evidence for a unison 4th course but no evidence at all about the 5th and 6th courses? The surviving music for vihuela dates from a time when the lute was commonly strung in octaves on courses 4-6, and from a string technology point of view there is therefore every reason to suppose that octaves were required. It seems to me that modern wound strings have made it too easy for us to assume that unisons were the norm for the vihuela. As I said, the presence of octaves on the lute seems to have been no barrier for those addicted to polyphonic intabulations, so the idea that the vihuela repertoire is dominated by such pieces is no argument in favour of unisons either. Best wishes, Martin Monica Hall wrote: The original article arguing for octave stringing was by Bill Hearn in LSA Quarterly, Aug. 1994. There was some correspondence between him and Donald Gill in LSA Quarterly Feb 1995, and May 1996. The other piece of evidence for unison stringing is from Bermudo who mentions that the 4-course guitar has octaves stringing in the 4th course like the vihuela de Flandres and by inference, he suggests that the vihuela did not. Monica - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk To: Lute List l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:37 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt The main piece of evidence for unison stringing on the lute in late 16th century Italy is the statement (where? can anyone help? I think it's an English source) that Fabrizio Dentice introduced it. And does Vincenzo Galilei mention it? For what it's worth, Caravaggio's paintings seem to show unisons. The assumption of unison stringing for the vihuela, on the other hand, does seem to be just that (John Ward's 1955 PhD thesis), the only solid piece of evidence being Pisador's tuning instructions which imply a unison 4th course. There is an interesting article in LSAQ some years ago called something like The shaky case for unison stringing on the vihuela - sorry I can't remember the author or the year. Again, can someone provide the exact reference? Best wishes, Martin Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Jean-michel, Put a colon after 'octaves' as '.../*strung in octaves: outside Italy*/' - I think you'll see what I meant I didn't think the meaning wasn't obvious but I'm sorry if you were momentarily misled. As you'll see I do, of course, allow the earlier Italian lute in octave tuning. But, interestingly and to extend this thread a little, for the later 16th century Italian repertoire do we really know how the lute was expected to be strung? I'm not sure that octaves on 4th and 5th as well as the 6th (and lower) courses were still general by, say the 1570s. Do you? Certainly the 17th century lute doesn't generally seem to have had octaves on the 4th and 5th (people like Piccinnini, Melli and Santino Garsi), so when did the change take place? [Martin, have you done anything on this?] MH --- On *Tue, 31/8/10, jean-michel Catherinot /jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com/* wrote: From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lute List l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 15:03 Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing without octaves on the lute! And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music with plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the vihuela, no octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an ambiguous tuning chart in Pisador. So... --- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk a ecrit : De: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt A: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lute List l...@cs.dartmouth.edu http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34 And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the lute
