[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela and viola
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED]; vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 7:35 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela and viola But those deeper-bodied violas with deeply incurved sides - the ones that look like they could be bowed as well as plucked; might they have a different barring arrangement, more viol-like? ( I have no idea how viols are barred.) I wonder what you think, as a maker, of the possibility of an instrument that could equally be bowed or played with the fingers? It somehow seems unlikely to me. I think it took a while to optimize two uniquely featured and tailored versions of the instrument, one optimized for bowing, and the other(s) optimized for fingers or/and plectrum. Many of the earliest bowed examples had flat glued-down bridges and no separate tail, appearing (to me) to be suitable for either/or use, pluck or bow, using one single instrument. Here's two examples: [sorry about these long URLS, copy/paste will repair any breaks] http://www.thecipher.com/vihuela-de-arco_bowed-guitar_4str_angel_Valencia_la te15th_det.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/viol_vihuela-de-arco_Valencia-Madonna_late-15th_lrg _deta.jpg some even retained paired-courses while bowing. Here's one http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_viol_Castelsardo_LaPorziuncola_c1500_Sarden ia_clr_deta.jpg People also, it appears, bowed bowl-back lutes! Here's a few example of those. I doubt there was much construction difference, if any, between the plucked lutes and the bowed ones seen here (other than string-count, paired courses or single strings). These lutes wouldn't appear to have been optimal or ideal for use as bowing platforms, but nevertheless people did bow them. http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_bowed-gittern_StefanoDaVerona_1375-1451_Ita ly_det.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_gittern_lute_bowed_French_ms_muses_det.jpg this one is a must-see too, for any number of reasons http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_PalmezzanoMarco_1510_VirginChildSaints_det. jpg there's also the Timoteo Viti viola with two bridges, one parked behind the other. Ephraim Segerman believes this is to facilitate and alternate between two bowing styles, chords or single note lines, but it's quite possible, I believe, that the low bridge (here parked behind the taller arched bridge) could have been a plucking bridge. http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy_det_lrg.jpg close-up detail of two bridges http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_Viti_2bridge-c1500det.jpg one feature optimization required of an ideal bowed viola/vihuela is having the end of the fretboard up off the face of the instrument so that the entire top can vibrate freely. You can see this refinement in Raphael's small bowed viola of 1510 http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_Raphael-viol_cecilia_c1510best-sm1.jpg and here super-sized (might reveal some construction details) http://www.thecipher.com/braccio_Raphael-viol_cecilia_c1510_FULL.jpg and then, just to add to the mix, people also plucked viola that had bowing-style tails, like this example. Looks to me like you could just as easily have bowed this one. This then is another example of the early compromise dual-purpose instrument (as I, for one, believe at least some were used) http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_GonesseOrgan_1508_France_superdet.jpg by the way, I've recently acquired two very nice images of the Borgia Apt viola, one color and one black and white, if anyone wants to upgrade their collection. http://www.thecipher.com/viola-sine-acrulo_vihuela_BorgiaAptsBernardinoPinto ricchio_1493_Italy_clr_det.jpg http://www.thecipher.com/viola-sine-arculo_vihuela_BorgiaAptsVatican_Bernard inoPintoricchio_1493_Italy_BW_SUPER_deta.jpg Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela and viola
Alexander Batov wrote: - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED]; vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2005 7:06 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: vihuela and viola Here's another question. Do you think there were any significant constructional differences between lutes/violas/vihuelas/guitars(?)/gitterns(?) that were meant to be played with a plectrum and those that were conceived for fingerstyle play? I would think so. It seems that there was even stronger differentiation in how / what with the instruments were played in the 16th century then they are now. The same is true for the long-established traditional musical cultures where there exists same strong defferentiation of instruments which are plucked either with a plectrum or with fingers. For example Turkish tanbur or Azerbaijani tar (which are both traditionally played with a plectrum) are fairly sensitive to finger touch but it would be hard to play anyhting sensible on them with the fingers. And even very lightly-build 200 years Ouds are not very suitable to finger plucking either (lack of frets is of course one of the contributing factors). It has always struck me that instruments that sound well with just the fleshy fingertips are rather special. They'll sound fine with a plectrum too, should you choose to use one. But it doesn't work the other way around. An instrument that is designed for playing with a plectrum will just not chirp at all with the fingertips: - modern steel-strung guitars, mandolins, ouds etc etc (There are rare exceptions, of course, and some players can get a fine sound from them.) However, it does become a bit harder to establish, in some cases, markedly different tendency in construction (i.e. light as opposed to heavier way of construction) and associated type of sound production. Traditional Turkish tanbur and Oud are both lightly-build, as is the Iranian tambur which is, however, played with the fingers in a strummed sort of way. Azerbaijani tar and Pamiran rubab both have massive hollowed-out bodies, both played with a plectrum but the first has very sensitive thin membrane (made of cow's heart membrane) while that of the second is thick bull's skin. Complicated picture, isn't it! Nevertheless there is always 'something in the construction and / or setup which favours a particular style of sound production. Alexander A fascinating reply. Thanks. One final question that's always intrigued me. I'll put it in a completely naive way. Lutes have big bellies and very complicated barring. Vihuelas/violas/guitars seemingly have very simple barring and smaller bodies and at least some of them have very narrow sides too, making the sound chamber especially small . So, you might think: lute = complex barring = complex sound - and so we have the Renaissance lute with it's sophisticated, polyphonic repertoire. Yet there is the vihuela repertoire which is equally sophisticated and polyphonic and yet the vihuela doesn't seem as complex a beast as the lute? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela and viola
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 20:00:34 -, Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ! the viol , close relative of the early vihuela. This may also be one of the ways to explain the 'simplicity' of the two-bar arrangement of the vihuela, together with the thicker soundboard (in comparison with that of the lute), as directly inherited from the early viol. Alexander, What is the thickness of the vihuela sound board? is it the 3mm of the modern guitar? or less?. regards bob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela and viola
- Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED]; vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 7:35 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] vihuela and viola Alexander, You say we have absolutely no idea what sort of barring arrangement violas might have had. But surely we - or makers like you - do have some idea. Some violas look very similar to vihuelas, and were made at roughly the same time, and not geographically distant and play the same sort of sophisticated, polyphonic music. It would at least be reasonable conjecture and certainly not idle speculation to bar a viola like a vihuela, wouldn't it? I have the idea that early guitars (and for you there's no difference between 16th/17th century guitars and vihuelas?) had a couple of bars on the soundboard and a couple of bars (or three?) on the back. No doubt there are a million subtleties of exactly how these bars are fashioned. So there's a tradtion of barring flat-backed, plucked instruments and violas could just be part of that tradition. I agree with most that you say here, Stuart. And my reasoning goes exactly along the same lines. Or, do you think there is a possibility that violas had la much more complicated lute-like barring? Yes, this possibility cannot be excluded. In particularly as regards those illustrations where somewhat 'lute-type' rose is depicted (as in our beloved dai Libri painting). I also like the two Japanese paintings: however similar the instruments look like their bodies are of different depths, the ribs and pegheads are also different. (Or, Monica-style; we just don't know, will never know and it's all (mere?) speculation... ) Not really. The very idea that the resonating box as such didn't change much (if at all!) from the time of the viola da mano / vihuela makes more sense to me than just abrupt rejection of 'we'll never know' style. I simply cannot imagine anything extraordinary in its construction (and I wonder if anybody will) that would set us back from re-creating a fairly reasonable reconstruction of either vihuela or viola da mano or 4-course guitar. A lot of makers do this already simply following their intuition; and this cannot be entirely wrong. But those deeper-bodied violas with deeply incurved sides - the ones that look like they could be bowed as well as plucked; might they have a different barring arrangement, more viol-like? ( I have no idea how viols are barred.) I wonder what you think, as a maker, of the possibility of an instrument that could equally be bowed or played with the fingers? It somehow seems unlikely to me. It doesn't seem likely to me either. Well viols were ocassionally plucked even in the early 18th century but that's different, if only in that sort of way. Perhaps that's why I don't like Jimmy Page's idea of bowing his guitar, sounds rather boring (in particularly on his early sessions) ... Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela and viola
Alexander, You say we have absolutely no idea what sort of barring arrangement violas might have had. But surely we - or makers like you - do have some idea. Some violas look very similar to vihuelas, and were made at roughly the same time, and not geographically distant and play the same sort of sophisticated, polyphonic music. It would at least be reasonable Or, do you think there is a possibility that violas had la much more complicated lute-like barring? (Or, Monica-style; we just don't know, will never know and it's all (mere?) speculation... ) Oh dear - I hope I don't sound too negative, but I am always sceptical of elaborate theories which are based on unprovable hypotheses. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela and viola
Professor John Griffiths is widely recognised as one of the top two or three academics specialising in the vihuela. I have just received this from him. Rob ''The Dias copy is an excellent choice. I know it's controversial, but I have found a heap of documentation on vihuelas that has not yet been published, including the names of numerous 16th century makers that are not listed in Romanillos' book. The documentation that I have assembled leaves no doubt in my mind that what today we tend to call respectively guitars and vihuelas were all made in the same workshops by the same makers using exactly the same technology and aiming for the same aesthetic result. The difference in name has more to do with the way the instruments were played. Romanillos maintains that it is legitimate to continue calling guitars vihuela up until the advent of single strings. In some parts of Latin America, the guitar is still called vihuela. In the south of Chile, for example, the instrument is called vihuela when used for playing folk music and guitar for playing classical/ concert repertoire.'' Well - it's not very surprising that vihuelas and guitars were made by the same makers, or similar in construction but that doesn't prove that the Diaz guitar was originally a 6-course instrument. And as for as the music which they play, there is not much to chose between that for 4-course and 5-course instruments in the vihuela books and that for 6-course instrument. Incidentally what proof is there that the Quito instrument dates from the early 17th century other than that it is supposed to have belong to S. Mariana de Jesus? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela and viola
The weakest point in any of the two ways of the viola da mano reconstruction
that you mention is that we have absolutely no idea (because of lack of
surviving instruments) what sort of barring arrangement the original
instruments had. And this is a major set back whichever external shape is
chosen for the reconstruction.
Alexander
www.vihuelademano.com
- Original Message -
From: Stuart Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:59 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] vihuela and viola
vihuela and viola
Today, the 16th century Spanish vihuela tends to almost completely
eclipse the Italian viola. Some (not uncontroversial) vihuelas actually
survive and, of course, there's a distinctive body of music composed for
the vihuela, starting with Milan's publication in 1536.
On the other hand, no violas survive - but there are representations of
them and they are sometimes specified in Italian tablatures ('for lute
or viola'). According to Tyler, the so-called Bottegari lute book (1574)
is really for the viola. There are depictions of violas back into the
late 15th century and even some fragments of music in tablature from
that time.
There seem to be at least two kinds of viola. One is only very slightly
waisted with a sickle-shaped pegbox. Stephen Barber and Sandy Harris
make a reproduction of one - no.9 on this page:
http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat12.htm
Obviously Barber and Harris are much more interested in the vihuela than
the viola.
But there's another kind of viola with deeply incurved sides. This kind
of viola looks very like its bowed counterpart. I recently came across
this reproduction of an instrument from c1520.
http://www.anselmus.ch/fr/guitares/guitare_general.htm#signet_01
Although bowed violas and plucked violas look superficially similar, I
would expect they are significantly different in construction(?) The
bowed violas have a tail piece, and, at least sometimes, have a visibly
curved bridge. The plucked violas I've seen all have the player's arm
and hand obscuring details of bridge or tail piece.
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