[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela grande
On Wednesday, December 07, 2005 3:40 PM Roger E. Blumberg wrote: Following the lines of the resent discussion of large-size vihuelas and guitars here is a late 15th - early 16th century Catalan picture (which isn't very often reproduced) that shows what appears to be a sort of double bass size vihuela or viola da mano: http://www.vihuelademano.com/current/pages/vihuela-grande.htm Alexander, is this image still around? Pretty please ;') Thanks Roger Thank you, Roger, for pointing this out. There was a hard drive failure on my server about a week ago and, although they promised to restore everything as it was, this page seems to have had 'mysteriously disappeared. It is back there now: http://www.vihuelademano.com/current/pages/vihuela-grande.htm Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela grande
- Original Message - From: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Roger E. Blumberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 5:49 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: vihuela grande On Wednesday, December 07, 2005 3:40 PM Roger E. Blumberg wrote: Following the lines of the resent discussion of large-size vihuelas and guitars here is a late 15th - early 16th century Catalan picture (which isn't very often reproduced) that shows what appears to be a sort of double bass size vihuela or viola da mano: http://www.vihuelademano.com/current/pages/vihuela-grande.htm Alexander, is this image still around? Pretty please ;') Thanks Roger Thank you, Roger, for pointing this out. There was a hard drive failure on my server about a week ago and, although they promised to restore everything as it was, this page seems to have had 'mysteriously disappeared. It is back there now: http://www.vihuelademano.com/current/pages/vihuela-grande.htm Alexander thanks much. Boy that is a monster!, and a gold mine of a picture, 4-in-1. The multi-part (long strips) fretboard detail on the bass instrument is reminiscent of at least one early Spanish viol picture I've seen, 1475-85, Heremitage of St. Feliu (St. Félix) in Xàtiva (Valencia, Spain). This is from another of those recently and heavily restored frescos http://www.thecipher.com/viol_1475-85_Valencia_Spain_lrg-clr-deta.jpg It's also nice to see more pluckers on the order of Timoteo Viti's small bodied bowed viol (the one with two bridges) http://www.thecipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_Madonna-Child_c1500_Italy_clr_deta .jpg compare to http://www.vihuelademano.com/current/images/vihuela-mano2.jpg and http://www.thecipher.com/viola_sine_arculo_c1485-1510_detv2.jpg and http://www.thecipher.com/viol_4str10fret-SardiniaItalyc1500xsm_det.jpg here's another fairly large French bass plucker, 1508 http://www.thecipher.com/viol-guitar_GonesseOrgan_1508_France_det1.jpg from this painted organ case balcony (Abbey Eglise Saint Pierre et Saint Paul) http://www.thecipher.com/viola-GonesseOrganItselfFrance1508_deta.jpg do you or anyone have more? I'm a glutton for pictures (I think you can tell), they're pretty much all we have to go on. What else have I missed in that or other threads, I wonder, and plead ;') thanks again Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela grande
[VIHUELA] vihuela grande Alexander Batov Tue, 15 Nov 2005 06:04:41 -0800 Following the lines of the resent discussion of large-size vihuelas and guitars here is a late 15th - early 16th century Catalan picture (which isn't very often reproduced) that shows what appears to be a sort of double bass size vihuela or viola da mano: http://www.vihuelademano.com/current/pages/vihuela-grande.htm Alexander Alexander, is this image still around? Pretty please ;') Thanks Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: vihuela grande
Alexander Batov wrote: Following the lines of the resent discussion of large-size vihuelas and guitars here is a late 15th - early 16th century Catalan picture (which isn't very often reproduced) that shows what appears to be a sort of double bass size vihuela or viola da mano: http://www.vihuelademano.com/current/pages/vihuela-grande.htm Alexander Crawford Young gives some references for possible tunings for lutes in the late 15th century. One is from a Venetian MS: D-G- c-f-a-d1. Young says: ...'the instrument depicted in this source is a very large one, the largest of any of our late 15th century lutes.' I think there is just a chart in the MS, not an actual picture of the instrument and Young says that it might not be for lute but for viola, plucked or bowed. Nevertheless Young is obviously thinking of a big instrument - like the one Alexander shows(?) An instrument with a low D could, I suppose, be correspondingly larger than a standard one in the way that a discant lute a fourth higher would be a lot smaller. (But why couldn't they have just put a seventh course on a standard G instrument?) Crawford Young also gives a specifically viola da mano tuning from Bologna (mentioned in David Fallow's LSJ article) for a 7 course instrument tuned to A but with a low E string. But the vihuela grande in Alexander's picture doesn't appear to be even a six course instrument. The player seems to be playing a chord - rather than a bass line? I wonder how low the bass line went in the late 15th century. I've only looked at a very few pieces but in those pieces even a low F is rare. I'm fascinated by the idea of plucked ensembles reading from mensural notation rather than tab. There appears to masses of evidence for plucked duos (large and small lutes or lute and gittern and, perhaps viola/vihuela equivalents). But Jon Banks reckons there are trios too - the evidence being 'instrumental' textless chansons in 3 parts. So maybe the trio of instruments would be: a 'standard' lute or viola/vihuela in G (or A), and an instrument a fourth higher and - like the vihuela grande in Alexander's picture - a fourth lower. Maybe a larger instrument would project the line better than a standard instrument with an added seventh course. (Martin Shepherd implied this in an earlier discussion of Jon Banks' suggestions) The small violas in the picture are interesting too ( fourth higher than 'standard'?). They are the first ones I've seen where you can actually see the bridge. I can't make out whether it's floating or fixed. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
