SE30 SCSI Repair Questions
Hi all! I finally got a compact mac back in my collection! (I used to have about 30 compact macs, but gave them all away after a flood did it's worst on most of them. :( I now have an SE/30, imo the prettiest of all of the compacts... It worked okay when I got it, no sound though. I put a drive in, installed 7.1 on it and then the SCSI chain stopped responding. I figured it was caps, so I replaced all of the capacitors with modern ones of the same value. Sound returned, and it booted up fine... from floppy. To check things out, I did try the hard drive and scsi cable on another board (I have a few SE mainboards lying around, so I dropped one in. I checked connectivity on the board against schematics as well as test diagrams that people have made... So here are the symptoms: SCSI Drive does not function either on the internal or external chain connectors with appropriate terminaton (doesn't work without termination either... i had to try it. ;) SCSI Drive is known working (tested with SE motherboard) SCSI Cable is known working New battery on the board Power Supply outputs expected voltages Appropriate power appears on drive connector, as well as on SCSI header Fuses are ok on the board. inductors are ok as well. SCSI controller chip's 44 pins were continuity-tested to their appropriate connections on other chips or the SCSI headers All pins from the internal 50 pin header do connect to the correct locations on the DB25 external connector No shorts were found on these headers. Apple HDSC Utility shows no SCSI drives present Hacked Apple HDSC Utility (for non-apple branded drives) also shows no SCSI drives present SCSI probe complains that the chain is not terminated. Termination power is present on both SCSI connectors. (4.7 volts, approx) I jumpered across to give it the 5.02 volts measured on the floppy port, thinking 4.7 wasn't enough, but that did not change anything. I'm at a loss at this point. About the only thing I can think of is that the 53c80 SCSI chip is faulty... that seems to be the only place left for a fault... Thoughts? -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
reviving Mac Classic?
Hello there vintage Maceteers A shaggy-dog-story and some newbie questions: I've just received a Mac Classic (model number M1420). I should say at the start that it was free, and it came as described: 'It makes the sound of the hard disk running. There are a couple of screws missing at the back of the casing. It has a keyboard and a mouse.' Indeed, when I switch on the power, a sound begins but it seems more like a fan starting up than a hard disk. The screen doesn't change from black. When I moved the unit around, I heard something moving inside the case. So I shone a torch through the floppy-drive hole and had a look. It seems there are bits missing - I can see right to the back of the case and there is plenty of unused space. There's no sign of the floppy drive. There is an actual floppy disk loose inside the machine. So, my questions: - What tools do I need to open the case and see if things really are missing? - If I recall correctly, the CRTs in these macs can retain lethal charge for a while. So how long should I leave the machine disconnected from power before trying to open it? - If bits are missing, would they be easy to obtain? (I'm in the UK.) I don't have a lot of money or time to spend failing to revive an old mac. So I'd appreciate a general opinion on whether it's worth trying. Of course I'm happy to try to supply more information if that will help generate answers. Many thanks Bruce -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: SE30 SCSI Repair Questions
Check to see if the drive is spinning? Jeff From: Scott Lawrence yor...@gmail.com To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 1:19 PM Subject: SE30 SCSI Repair Questions Hi all! I finally got a compact mac back in my collection! (I used to have about 30 compact macs, but gave them all away after a flood did it's worst on most of them. :( I now have an SE/30, imo the prettiest of all of the compacts... It worked okay when I got it, no sound though. I put a drive in, installed 7.1 on it and then the SCSI chain stopped responding. I figured it was caps, so I replaced all of the capacitors with modern ones of the same value. Sound returned, and it booted up fine... from floppy. To check things out, I did try the hard drive and scsi cable on another board (I have a few SE mainboards lying around, so I dropped one in. I checked connectivity on the board against schematics as well as test diagrams that people have made... So here are the symptoms: SCSI Drive does not function either on the internal or external chain connectors with appropriate terminaton (doesn't work without termination either... i had to try it. ;) SCSI Drive is known working (tested with SE motherboard) SCSI Cable is known working New battery on the board Power Supply outputs expected voltages Appropriate power appears on drive connector, as well as on SCSI header Fuses are ok on the board. inductors are ok as well. SCSI controller chip's 44 pins were continuity-tested to their appropriate connections on other chips or the SCSI headers All pins from the internal 50 pin header do connect to the correct locations on the DB25 external connector No shorts were found on these headers. Apple HDSC Utility shows no SCSI drives present Hacked Apple HDSC Utility (for non-apple branded drives) also shows no SCSI drives present SCSI probe complains that the chain is not terminated. Termination power is present on both SCSI connectors. (4.7 volts, approx) I jumpered across to give it the 5.02 volts measured on the floppy port, thinking 4.7 wasn't enough, but that did not change anything. I'm at a loss at this point. About the only thing I can think of is that the 53c80 SCSI chip is faulty... that seems to be the only place left for a fault... Thoughts? -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: reviving Mac Classic?
Always take the challenge of making a Classic Mac work again. A satisfying, albeit sorta frustrating experience. I use a Harbor Freight toolkit that uses a thin but tough extending-shaft driver. It accepts bits of which one is a T-15 torx. The driver stretches enough to allow unscrewing the torx screws inside the handle. To open it, I lay the Mac face down on a tri-folded cotton towel and, after removing the bottom screws first, tap on a loosened partly removed handle screw with my palm on the back of the extending driver until the top of the case splits. It's a tight press-fit. Other folks use a Mac Cracker, a spreader resembling a spring clamp. I avoid them as they can mar the seam if too much fumbling occurs. Don't power it on again until you have it open. Loose parts inside can make the damage worse. Jeff From: Bruce Ryan bruce.r...@mac.com To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 3:50 PM Subject: reviving Mac Classic? Hello there vintage Maceteers A shaggy-dog-story and some newbie questions: I've just received a Mac Classic (model number M1420). I should say at the start that it was free, and it came as described: 'It makes the sound of the hard disk running. There are a couple of screws missing at the back of the casing. It has a keyboard and a mouse.' Indeed, when I switch on the power, a sound begins but it seems more like a fan starting up than a hard disk. The screen doesn't change from black. When I moved the unit around, I heard something moving inside the case. So I shone a torch through the floppy-drive hole and had a look. It seems there are bits missing - I can see right to the back of the case and there is plenty of unused space. There's no sign of the floppy drive. There is an actual floppy disk loose inside the machine. So, my questions: * What tools do I need to open the case and see if things really are missing? * If I recall correctly, the CRTs in these macs can retain lethal charge for a while. So how long should I leave the machine disconnected from power before trying to open it? * If bits are missing, would they be easy to obtain? (I'm in the UK.) I don't have a lot of money or time to spend failing to revive an old mac. So I'd appreciate a general opinion on whether it's worth trying. Of course I'm happy to try to supply more information if that will help generate answers. Many thanks Bruce -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: SE30 SCSI Repair Questions
Yes. The drive is running. It does it's startup seek, same as if it were unplugged or when it was plugged into the SE motherboard. It takes it a few moments then it shows the ? Mac icon. -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: reviving Mac Classic?
I've actually found that the Craftsman 6 shaft Torx T15 is perfect for unscrewing these. It gets those two screws in the handle area without problems at all. :) -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
RE: reviving Mac Classic?
Someone may know more than I do...but from what I gather they can hold a charge for a VERY VERY long time...perhaps indefinitely? That's what bugs me about all the warnings of dire injury on electric devices. Most things are safe if you aren't stupid...but a monitor that can be deadly long after unplugging has the exact same warning on it that everyone has learned to ignore... I'm sure if you are careful not to touch anything around the tube, you should be OK... Wesley _ * If I recall correctly, the CRTs in these macs can retain lethal charge for a while. So how long should I leave the machine disconnected from power before trying to open it? -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: SE30 SCSI Repair Questions
ccee The method I used is, with a known-working internal and external floppy drive, is boot a system 6.0.8. disk find and use the Micromat system 6 removable and internal disk utility. Another, easier to find utility is the usually fail-proof La CieSilverlining which I will use in a bootable System 7.5 environment. If that drive is mountable, the La Cie utility will indoctrinate it to a mounted condition. Many folks don't like Silverlining because of the problems it manifested in System 7. But it, along with Lido 7.5.6, which wants system 7.1 to OS8.x to work, almost always, for me anyway, made a rogue hard disk appear on the desktop. I want to be absolutely sure that the hard drive isn't bad so I look at the SCSI cable, motherboard connector and drive connector conditions (i.e bent or missing pins), and potentially missing terminators on the hard drive's controller board. I look at drive-controller jumpers and use Google to see if these are set correctly (from the maufacturer's site or other trusted sites). To foolproof my testing, I will connect the drive to an Adaptec SCSI Card in a Pentium II or III PC and run MHDD, which is a bootable Linux-based CD that checks sectors for condition, and can repair damaged sectors software-wise, AND format the drive with MHDD. This opens the door for the La CieSilverlining to take charge and make a working drive Mac-accessible, IF it's not toast. Jeff From: Scott Lawrence yor...@gmail.com To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 4:27 PM Subject: Re: SE30 SCSI Repair Questions Yes. The drive is running. It does it's startup seek, same as if it were unplugged or when it was plugged into the SE motherboard. It takes it a few moments then it shows the ? Mac icon. -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: reviving Mac Classic?
I had, for years, a custom welded torx driver that was 2 feet long. I left it behind at the Recycling Plant, so I had to improvise with a lesser but workable tool. Jeff From: Scott Lawrence yor...@gmail.com To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 4:29 PM Subject: Re: reviving Mac Classic? I've actually found that the Craftsman 6 shaft Torx T15 is perfect for unscrewing these. It gets those two screws in the handle area without problems at all. :) -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: reviving Mac Classic?
Macs after the Plus (?) have a bleed-off circuit that kills any left-over charge in the suction cup plug that attaches to the CRT. Within moments of shut down there is no residual electrical potential to zap you. I hedge my bets by grabbing the suction cup with a pliers, having insulated handles, and touching the Mac's frame with the hidden springy-thingy inside the suction cup. All the usual precautions and warnings must apply here. Jeff From: Wesley Furr wes...@megley.com To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 5:11 PM Subject: RE: reviving Mac Classic? Someone may know more than I do...but from what I gather they can hold a charge for a VERY VERY long time...perhaps indefinitely? That's what bugs me about all the warnings of dire injury on electric devices. Most things are safe if you aren't stupid...but a monitor that can be deadly long after unplugging has the exact same warning on it that everyone has learned to ignore... I'm sure if you are careful not to touch anything around the tube, you should be OK... Wesley * If I recall correctly, the CRTs in these macs can retain lethal charge for a while. So how long should I leave the machine disconnected from power before trying to open it? -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: SE30 SCSI Repair Questions
Well, like I said, I know the drive, scsi cable, power supply are all good, since I have my SE board in that case right now, running System 7.1 off of a 340 meg hard disk. (Which I installed using that SE/30 before it failed.) I'd love to try out those formatting tools, but I can't get the machine to see any device on the SCSI chain. HDSC setup and the hacked version of HDSC setup both claim that the scsi chain is not terminated. It's not that the drive isn't formatted, it's got a working install of OS 7.1. It's just not visible with the SE/30 board. -s On Friday, November 8, 2013 10:08:36 PM UTC-5, The Old Geek wrote: ccee The method I used is, with a known-working internal and external floppy drive, is boot a system 6.0.8. disk find and use the Micromat system 6 removable and internal disk utility. Another, easier to find utility is the usually fail-proof La CieSilverlining which I will use in a bootable System 7.5 environment. If that drive is mountable, the La Cie utility will indoctrinate it to a mounted condition. Many folks don't like Silverlining because of the problems it manifested in System 7. But it, along with Lido 7.5.6, which wants system 7.1 to OS8.x to work, almost always, for me anyway, made a rogue hard disk appear on the desktop. I want to be absolutely sure that the hard drive isn't bad so I look at the SCSI cable, motherboard connector and drive connector conditions (i.e bent or missing pins), and potentially missing terminators on the hard drive's controller board. I look at drive-controller jumpers and use Google to see if these are set correctly (from the maufacturer's site or other trusted sites). To foolproof my testing, I will connect the drive to an Adaptec SCSI Card in a Pentium II or III PC and run MHDD, which is a bootable Linux-based CD that checks sectors for condition, and can repair damaged sectors software-wise, AND format the drive with MHDD. This opens the door for the La CieSilverlining to take charge and make a working drive Mac-accessible, IF it's not toast. Jeff -- *From:* Scott Lawrence yor...@gmail.com javascript: *To:* vintag...@googlegroups.com javascript: *Sent:* Friday, November 8, 2013 4:27 PM *Subject:* Re: SE30 SCSI Repair Questions Yes. The drive is running. It does it's startup seek, same as if it were unplugged or when it was plugged into the SE motherboard. It takes it a few moments then it shows the ? Mac icon. -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintag...@googlegroups.comjavascript: To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsub...@googlegroups.comjavascript: For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsub...@googlegroups.com. javascript: For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- -- - You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Vintage Macs group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
