OS 8 System issues

[Nat Hall]

Hi list,

Running OS 8.1 on a IIfx. Actually, it's a dual-hard drive system with
8.1 on one disk and A/UX on the other. Yesterday when I booted in 8.1
I immediately got a bomb... Error was with "Finder", error -10. I
looked it up and the description of the error was very unhelpful
(something like "line - fault"). So I hit Restart, and the system
booted into A/UX instead. I thought this was strange, so I checked the
8.1 disk from A/UX and found out the System Folder had become
unblessed somehow (as a result of the error apparently). I reblessed
the folder by dragging the System file out and back in, then rebooted
back into 8.1.

It came up this time, but the Apple menu was empty (other than "About
this Macintosh...") and the System Folder was again unblessed. Thing
is-- I can't rebless the System Folder at all from inside 8.1 now and
most programs don't work because they can't find their Preferences
file. I can drag the System file in and out to my heart's content and
it never blesses. I ran Disk First Aid and it found a "Directory Name
locked" error which it repaired. This didn't help anything. I tried to
rebuild the desktop, but I don't think it actually rebuilt. The
"Rebuilding desktop" progress bar flashed on the screen for only about
2 seconds and then went away.

Anyway, my bag of tricks is empty and I don't know what to do at this
point. I really don't want to wipe the hard drive and re-install the
OS as that would be a major pain at this stage of the game. I've gotta
think there is something I can do to fix this since the system boots
up without error-- obviously the System is more or less intact. It's
just that as soon as it boots, it unblesses itself for some damn
reason.

Any ideas?



Nat

-- 
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/

Re: OS 8 System issues

[Chuck Bush]

On 7/18/10 9:37 PM, "Nat Hall"  wrote:

> Hi list,
> 
> Running OS 8.1 on a IIfx. Actually, it's a dual-hard drive system with
> 8.1 on one disk and A/UX on the other. Yesterday when I booted in 8.1
> I immediately got a bomb... Error was with "Finder", error -10. I
> looked it up and the description of the error was very unhelpful
> (something like "line - fault"). So I hit Restart . . . . . .
***Message Cut***

>I really don't want to wipe the hard drive and re-install the
> OS as that would be a major pain at this stage of the game. I've gotta
> think there is something I can do to fix this since the system boots
> up without error-- obviously the System is more or less intact. It's
> just that as soon as it boots, it unblesses itself for some damn
> reason.
> 
> Any ideas?

Do you have the 8.1 CD? When you tell it to reload the system, it will go
through and just fix whatever it finds wrong, leaving the rest of the system
and your preferences untouched. You do not have to erase everything to
reinstall the system.

I have never run an fx (I can¹t imagine why you want to run it on system 8,
instead of system 7), but I have many times, while running classic Macs, had
system problems develop, and they were usually able to be fixed that way.

Good luck!

Chuck 

-- 
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/

Re: OS 8 System issues

[Nat Hall]

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 6:22 AM, Chuck Bush  wrote:
> On 7/18/10 9:37 PM, "Nat Hall"  wrote:
>
>> Hi list,
>>
>> Running OS 8.1 on a IIfx. Actually, it's a dual-hard drive system with
>> 8.1 on one disk and A/UX on the other. Yesterday when I booted in 8.1
>> I immediately got a bomb... Error was with "Finder", error -10. I
>> looked it up and the description of the error was very unhelpful
>> (something like "line - fault"). So I hit Restart . . . . . .
> ***Message Cut***
>
>>I really don't want to wipe the hard drive and re-install the
>> OS as that would be a major pain at this stage of the game. I've gotta
>> think there is something I can do to fix this since the system boots
>> up without error-- obviously the System is more or less intact. It's
>> just that as soon as it boots, it unblesses itself for some damn
>> reason.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>
> Do you have the 8.1 CD? When you tell it to reload the system, it will go
> through and just fix whatever it finds wrong, leaving the rest of the system
> and your preferences untouched. You do not have to erase everything to
> reinstall the system.
>
> I have never run an fx (I can’t imagine why you want to run it on system 8,
> instead of system 7), but I have many times, while running classic Macs, had
> system problems develop, and they were usually able to be fixed that way.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Chuck
>


Thanks for the response.

I sure do have the 8.1 CD but, uh, that's sort of where the "major
pain and hassle" of reloading comes in that I mentioned. See, I don't
actually have a CD-ROM hooked up to my IIfx so when I loaded 8.1 on it
initially I copied the entire 8.1 install CD onto the second hard
drive via AppleTalk. Anyone who has ever copied anything large
over AppleTalk knows how slow it is. If I was to try the procedure you
suggest, I'd have to copy that CD over AppleTalk again. If that's
going to be my only recourse here, then I guess I'll have to suck it
up and do it but I was hoping for some other solution.

To address your second point, not strictly on topic: why run OS 8.1 on
a IIfx? Well you sort of answered your own question by stating you've
never run a IIfx The IIfx is an amazing machine (as I'm sure
you've heard), and OS 8.1 (after extensive unnecessary extension
trimming) is just as fast as anything post-7.1. Finder operations are
actually faster than the later 7 versions (7.5.x, 7.6.x) and you gain
all the new features of 8 as well as compatibility with 8-only
applications. The ONLY drawback to running 8 that I've found is the
larger RAM footprint. IIRC I think my 8 installation on the IIfx uses
10 megs of RAM at all times. That said, that's no problem if you've
got plenty of RAM installed. I'm a strong supporter of OS 8 on the
IIfx, and I'd highly recommend it to all IIfx owners with enough RAM
to deal with it.


Nat

-- 
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/

Re: OS 8 System issues

[Dan]

At 7:37 PM -0700 7/18/2010, Nat Hall wrote:

OS 8.1 on a IIfx.

Yesterday when I booted in 8.1 I immediately got a bomb... Error was 
with "Finder", error -10.


hit Restart, and the system booted into A/UX instead. I thought this 
was strange, so I checked the
8.1 disk from A/UX and found out the System Folder had become 
unblessed somehow


The error is the resulting symptom.  The thing that unblessed the 
System Folder is the worry - the boot block either became corrupted 
or died.  The system switching to the A/UX partition means that it 
didn't like the contents of the boot block on the first partition, so 
it moved to the next.


Run Disk First Aid and/or Norton Disk Doctor and/or DiskWarrior. 
Repeat until no errors occur.


Once those utilities are happy, do a complete desktop rebuild.  Don't 
just hold down cmd-opt while the Finder starts - actually trash the 
desktop database then relaunch Finder, which will force it to rebuild 
from scratch.  As I recall, tools like File Buddy will do this for 
you.


Then re-select the volume from which to boot using the control panel...

- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

--
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/

Re: OS 8 System issues

[Nat Hall]

On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Dan  wrote:
> At 7:37 PM -0700 7/18/2010, Nat Hall wrote:
>>
>> OS 8.1 on a IIfx.
>>
>> Yesterday when I booted in 8.1 I immediately got a bomb... Error was with
>> "Finder", error -10.
>>
>> hit Restart, and the system booted into A/UX instead. I thought this was
>> strange, so I checked the
>> 8.1 disk from A/UX and found out the System Folder had become unblessed
>> somehow
>
> The error is the resulting symptom.  The thing that unblessed the System
> Folder is the worry - the boot block either became corrupted or died.  The
> system switching to the A/UX partition means that it didn't like the
> contents of the boot block on the first partition, so it moved to the next.
>
> Run Disk First Aid and/or Norton Disk Doctor and/or DiskWarrior. Repeat
> until no errors occur.
>
> Once those utilities are happy, do a complete desktop rebuild.  Don't just
> hold down cmd-opt while the Finder starts - actually trash the desktop
> database then relaunch Finder, which will force it to rebuild from scratch.
>  As I recall, tools like File Buddy will do this for you.
>
> Then re-select the volume from which to boot using the control panel...
>
> - Dan.

Great -- thanks for the tips. I will try to track down a copy of
DiskWarrior and Norton Disk Doctor.


Nat

-- 
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/

Re: OS 8 System issues

[Nat Hall]

On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 7:37 PM, Nat Hall  wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> Running OS 8.1 on a IIfx. Actually, it's a dual-hard drive system with
> 8.1 on one disk and A/UX on the other. Yesterday when I booted in 8.1
> I immediately got a bomb...


So I got it working. Thanks Dan for the multiple disk utility
suggestions Got Norton Disk Doctor on the case which found a bunch
of file system errors. Then I used ResEdit to make the Desktop
database files visible and threw 'em in the trash. That forced a
rebuild on boot up. A second reboot to make sure everything was OK,
and it appears I'm back in business.

Worthy of note here is that Disk First Aid reported "Disk appears OK"
even though Norton found all that stuff wrong.


Nat

-- 
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/

Re: OS 8 System issues

[Scott Holder]

On 7/20/2010 12:20 AM, Nat Hall wrote:

On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 7:37 PM, Nat Hall  wrote:
   

Hi list,

Running OS 8.1 on a IIfx. Actually, it's a dual-hard drive system with
8.1 on one disk and A/UX on the other. Yesterday when I booted in 8.1
I immediately got a bomb...
 


So I got it working. Thanks Dan for the multiple disk utility
suggestions Got Norton Disk Doctor on the case which found a bunch
of file system errors. Then I used ResEdit to make the Desktop
database files visible and threw 'em in the trash. That forced a
rebuild on boot up. A second reboot to make sure everything was OK,
and it appears I'm back in business.

Worthy of note here is that Disk First Aid reported "Disk appears OK"
even though Norton found all that stuff wrong.


Nat
   



I'm not a real big fan of Norton software these days, but this is one 
place where they really hit a home run. A Mac without Norton Disk Doctor 
might as well be naked. Really is/was an amazing piece of work.


Incidentally, I've been a big fan of 8.1 on just about anything that'd 
run it for a long time. I had a Powerbook Duo 230 with 32 megs of RAM or 
some such that I mostly ran on 8.1. Even with its relatively pedestrian 
architecture compared to the IIfx, it ran completely nicely.


Somewhat ironically, my vintage computing interests run in funny 
opposites: I like running new OSes on things they weren't intended to 
(such as 8.1 on a slow 68030) as well as the oldest possible on faster 
equipment (I had a blazing, stripped down, but fully functional install 
of 7.1 running very well on a 840AV). Although my current daily-use Mac 
is a LC475 OCed to 33mhz with a real 68040 with 7.5.5 and 68 megs of 
RAM, which is nicely middle-of-the-road average. It runs well. I only 
wish my 840AV wasn't having cap problems. Also a shame my IIci runs A/UX 
so slowly and doesn't like its NIC...


Scott

--
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/

Re: OS 8 System issues

[Dan]

At 9:20 PM -0700 7/19/2010, Nat Hall wrote:


Worthy of note here is that Disk First Aid reported "Disk appears OK"
even though Norton found all that stuff wrong.


Yea.  This is why tools such as NDD had a big market back in the day. 
DFA was ok for simple stuff, but useless for more complex file system 
errors.


Note please that when OS X is involved, things change.  NEVER EVER 
ever ever ever put Norton anything near OS X !  In trying to get 
it to work on OS X, Symantec pretty much destroyed the product, then 
totally gave up and discontinued it.  The up-to-date version of 
DiskWarrior is pretty good tho, for those rare rare times when fsck 
(Disk Utility) isn't quite good enough.


- Dan.
--
- Psychoceramic Emeritus; South Jersey, USA, Earth.

--
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/

Re: OS 8 System issues

[Gregg Eshelman]

Well, first thing is to run 8.1 on a IIfx there has to be some type of hack, 
because normally 8.1 will only run on a 68040 or Power PC CPU.

You'll need to find out which hack was used to make 8.1 run on your IIfx then 
fix it so it'll work again.

One hack is called Wish I Were. It changes the gestalt ID to fool the OS 
installer into working. It's also useful for some applications that will run on 
a 68030 but "require" a 68040.

I just did a quick search trying to find a place to download Wish I Were but 
only found dead links, and a ton of completely unrelated stuff.


  

-- 
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/

Re: OS 8 System issues

[Scott Holder]

On 7/20/2010 2:57 AM, Gregg Eshelman wrote:

Well, first thing is to run 8.1 on a IIfx there has to be some type of hack, 
because normally 8.1 will only run on a 68040 or Power PC CPU.

You'll need to find out which hack was used to make 8.1 run on your IIfx then 
fix it so it'll work again.

One hack is called Wish I Were. It changes the gestalt ID to fool the OS installer into 
working. It's also useful for some applications that will run on a 68030 but 
"require" a 68040.

I just did a quick search trying to find a place to download Wish I Were but 
only found dead links, and a ton of completely unrelated stuff.
   



The easiest/best way is probably using the old Born Again software from 
Brochner Software. I have no idea if the author is still around to 
accept a payment or not, technically it was shareware and not freeware. 
I used it successfully on a few things back in the day, although I'm not 
sure I have any of them left these days.


http://lowendmac.com/tech/bornagain.html

I found a 1.0 download at the garden but there was a 1.1 version 
available at one point.


http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/born-again

Wish I Were was a little trickier because you still had to fool the 
system for initial startup before it loaded. If you tried to use WIW 
alone you'd still get the standard "This startup disk cannot be used to 
start this computer"-type warning. With some Resedit hacks it worked 
nicely though. I mainly used it to get Soft PC Classic running on some 
non-Mac Classic/LC systems.


Scott

--
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/

Re: OS 8 System issues

[glen]

- Original Message 
> From: Scott Holder 

> 
> On 7/20/2010 2:57 AM, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> > Well, first thing is to run  8.1 on a IIfx there has to be some type of 
> > hack, 
>because normally 8.1 will only  run on a 68040 or Power PC CPU.
> > 
> > You'll need to find out which  hack was used to make 8.1 run on your IIfx 
>then fix it so it'll work  again.
> > 
> > One hack is called Wish I Were. It changes the gestalt  ID to fool the OS 
>installer into working. It's also useful for some applications  that will run 
>on 
>a 68030 but "require" a 68040.

> The easiest/best way is probably using the old Born Again software  from 
>Brochner Software. I have no idea if the author is still around to accept a  
>payment or not, technically it was shareware and not freeware. I used it  
>successfully on a few things back in the day, although I'm not sure I have any 
> 
>of them left these  days.
> 
> http://lowendmac.com/tech/bornagain.html
> 
> I found a 1.0  download at the garden but there was a 1.1 version available 
> at 
>one  point.
> 
> http://macintoshgarden.org/apps/born-again
> 
> Wish I Were was  a little trickier because you still had to fool the system 
> for 
>initial startup  before it loaded. If you tried to use WIW alone you'd still 
>get 
>the standard  "This startup disk cannot be used to start this computer"-type 
>warning. With  some Resedit hacks it worked nicely though. I mainly used it to 
>get Soft PC  Classic running on some non-Mac Classic/LC systems.
---

The Resedit hack is found here at Gamba's site for any wanting to try it -- 
it's 
great his site is still up.

l

This apparently applies to any of the following Mac's:
 Macintosh IIci, IIfx, IIsi, IIvi, IIvx, LC III, LC520, 550, 560;  Performa 
275, 
450, 460-467, 600; Color Classic II; PowerBook 150, 160, 165, 165c, 180, 180c; 
PowerBook  Duo 210, 230, 250, 270c

I  installed System 8.1 on a SE/30 for use as an iTunes server for use with 
more 
modern networked Mac's with OS 8.6 thru 10.3.9 at that time. The SE/30 had no 
problems serving tunes to these Macs but was incredibly slow for anything else. 
The iTunes library was installed on a old  Seagate 9 GB full height drive  that 
sounded like a small turbine when starting up. The drive  failed a few years 
and  I moved the server to  more modern Mac.

I do have an IIfx in the wings with 80 MB or so of RAM and would love to try OS 
8.1 on it if I ever get the time. --glen


  

-- 
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/

Re: OS 8 System issues

[Nat Hall]

>> Wish I Were was  a little trickier because you still had to fool the system 
>> for
>>initial startup  before it loaded. If you tried to use WIW alone you'd still 
>>get
>>the standard  "This startup disk cannot be used to start this computer"-type
>>warning. With  some Resedit hacks it worked nicely though. I mainly used it to
>>get Soft PC  Classic running on some non-Mac Classic/LC systems.
> ---
>
> The Resedit hack is found here at Gamba's site for any wanting to try it -- 
> it's
> great his site is still up.
>
> l
>
> This apparently applies to any of the following Mac's:
>  Macintosh IIci, IIfx, IIsi, IIvi, IIvx, LC III, LC520, 550, 560;  Performa 
> 275,
> 450, 460-467, 600; Color Classic II; PowerBook 150, 160, 165, 165c, 180, 180c;
> PowerBook  Duo 210, 230, 250, 270c
>
> I  installed System 8.1 on a SE/30 for use as an iTunes server for use with 
> more
> modern networked Mac's with OS 8.6 thru 10.3.9 at that time. The SE/30 had no
> problems serving tunes to these Macs but was incredibly slow for anything 
> else.
> The iTunes library was installed on a old  Seagate 9 GB full height drive  
> that
> sounded like a small turbine when starting up. The drive  failed a few years
> and  I moved the server to  more modern Mac.
>
> I do have an IIfx in the wings with 80 MB or so of RAM and would love to try 
> OS
> 8.1 on it if I ever get the time. --glen
>


I highly recommend it. A IIfx with 80MB would do beautifully. A
side note: I always keep Virtual Memory OFF. Runs much faster that
way, and with 80MB, there really is no need for it unless you're doing
some extremely graphic-intensive stuff.

FWIW, IIRC (it's been half a decade) when I initially installed 8.1 on
my IIfx I used a combination of Wish I Were to trick the installer
into working and then a ResEdit hack of some sort so the installation
would actually boot from that point forward.

Either way, like I indicated in an earlier message, I was able to get
the IIfx booting again by running Norton Disk Doctor on the drive and
trashing the Desktop database. No further mumbo jumbo necessary


Nat

-- 
-
You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs group.
The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our 
netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs

Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/