Re: e: 400k disks

[simon]

On 18-mrt-05, at 5:12, Thomas Burns wrote:
A related question. Since 3.5 floppies are a questionable medium for 
storing old files, has anyone archived all their old stuff? I have 
like 200 floppies of images and games and old word documents. Any 
advice for burning all that stuff to CDs?

i've used mo (magneto optical) disks to transfer data from floppy's. 
and they are ver suitable if you want to make a copy of for example a 
old harddrive like the HD20 or the HD20 SC. you can lock them so when 
transferring the data to a newer system, de data keeps intact.

for old floppies like 400k or originals (virgin copies) i use disk copy 
4.2 or disk copy 6.3 set to 4.2 format. of course allways with the 
floppy locked.

there is however a problem with copy-protected disks. disk copy cannot 
cope with them and a copy will not work.

the solution is to use a duplicate floppy as an archive, made with the 
program copy II mac, running on an old 512. be aware that it only can 
handle 400k floppy's or 79 tracks. use the bit copy. the sector copy 
will not copy the protection scheme. Also be aware that copy II mac 
does not verify the disk after copying. so use known good disks.

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Re: e: 400k disks

[Allan Hunter]

At 11:12 PM -0500 3/17/05, Thomas Burns wrote:
Third question. I found a 512Ke with the MacDove 2mb upgrade and 
SCSI upgrade. I asked this before about a regular 512k, but is it 
more likely to get the upgraded one online as a web server?

God yes.  With 2 MB RAM you've got enough room to run System 6 and 
MacTCP and probably an early version of WebStar.  Follow the instrux 
for setting up a Mac Plus server, trimming where you can.  You have 
half the RAM of a maxed-out Plus but four times the RAM of a stock 
512.  And even if you can't boot from SCSI drive (can you?), you can 
devote the floppy to OS, making it more likely that you can fit your 
System 6 and the necessary extensions, and put the app(s) on the SCSI 
drive.

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Re: e: 400k disks

[Thomas Burns]

To get the old 512k working, I found an 800k disk I had. I booted my SE/30 
under system 6.0.8 and formatted the disk as  400k. I used disk copy to put 
an image of  system 3.0 on the disk. The 512 booted up right away with the 
new disk. Now the only problem is doing anything with it. I don't have any 
software for a 512 and can't connect it to the other Macs since it requires 
that weird LocalTalk cable.

A related question. Since 3.5 floppies are a questionable medium for storing 
old files, has anyone archived all their old stuff? I have like 200 floppies 
of images and games and old word documents. Any advice for burning all that 
stuff to CDs?

Third question. I found a 512Ke with the MacDove 2mb upgrade and SCSI 
upgrade. I asked this before about a regular 512k, but is it more likely to 
get the upgraded one online as a web server? It should run system 6.0.8 from 
one floppy with MacTCP, correct? Will it recognize a SCSI Ethernet 
connection if I stick one in the SCSI port? Also, will any web server run 
under 6.0.8 like MacHTTP or does that require system 7? I'm hoping the 2mbs 
might make it more feasible to get a server going. Anyone up for a group 
project to get this thing online? lol

Thomas
- Original Message - 
From: "Don P." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Vintage Macs" 
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: e: 400k disks


There have been a couple of comments recently about
old floppies that have got me thinking. My
recollection in regard to floppy  disks:
History: Pre-Floppy 3.5 will not be argued. The
following relates to 3.5 inch Auto Shutter "Micro
Floppy" aka "Microdisk" . As of 1998 is becoming a
questionable medium for anything other than cheap
transfer of small files, last ditch "temporary"
storage or use on older machines.
1.  400K: MF1-DD "Single Sided, Double Density,
Double Tracks" 1 square hole (lockable which will open
the hole. Closed is open! ?Stupid!). This is the only
disk 128K and 512K can read! Newer disks can format as
400K w/ preOS8. Not usable w/OS8 and up (data must be
transferred to other disk by use of earlier OS) Disk
can usually* be reformatted to be 800K. *the safety of
the second side is iffy unless reformatted w/OS7 which
skips bad spots. Will read as MFS unless OS7 trick
used (see below 800K). (history note: I paid $60 @
1985 dollars= ?100+$ current dollar price on 10 of
these).
2.  800K: MF2-DD 2S/2D "Double Sided", "DS" disks:1
square hole, identical to 400K, but increase in
technology (*Quality control?) allow newer (512Ke,
Plus, MacII, and some SE)  to use both sides of disks.
Erasure allows choice of 400K on older machines. If
reformated to 400K using OS7 holding down Option key
allows HFS on 400K disk. Usable w/OS8 and up to ?. In
essence, you can store 800K on a double-sided, instead
of 400K on a single-sided disk despite both being made
the same way. Inspection methods and formatting
capability is the difference.
3. 1.4 MB: MF2HD or MFD-2HD "High Density" "HD" disks:
2 hole, major change allows X2 improvement. Save old
disks for recycle since new disks won't format to old
(unless fooled by taping over the second hole, which
is not a good idea. Don't trust it!).
4. OS7; HFS (Hierarchical Filing System) instead of
MFS (Macintosh Filing System) formating introduced ?
Essentially this means that HFS floppy won't work
pre-MacPlus and then only if OS7 or later installed.
Double sided disks were formatted as single-sided
disks under MFS. HFS was incorporated into the 128K
ROMs in the Mac 512Ke and up. ? But Mac 512Ke doesn't
have the 8MB req'd for OS7 ?
5. OS8 abandons older formatting capability. HFS+
becomes the new format.
Things that I am very uncertain about:
MFS to HFS change; it seems to me that  Folders were
not really folders. You could put folders in other
folders.  Your files were really  separated. No more 1
huge list of files in the open dialog boxes.???
The Mac 128K/512K could not use HFS with this System.
Unless they had the "Hard Disk 20" file. ??
Early limitations were hardware, later limitations
after Plus  (HFS) were software.
The floppies's use now seems to be  non-network
transfer for:
A. Economical Transfer: if all that you have to do is
make quick person to person transfer, toss a floppy.
b.: This is the last battle line in order to recover
that which either has not been more efficiently stored
or
c. less reliable, less convenient storage of archived
files seldom used.
1. Mac 128 and 512 require 400K floppy
2. Essentially there is no difference between 400K and
800K except how they are formatted (one side vs.
both). Some early disks were bad enough that both
sides can't be formatted so they are 400K only.
3. 512KE to
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Regardless I hope that
this assists someone besides myself.
Don

_

Re: e: 400k disks

[Don P.]

There have been a couple of comments recently about
old floppies that have got me thinking. My
recollection in regard to floppy  disks:  
History: Pre-Floppy 3.5 will not be argued. The
following relates to 3.5 inch Auto Shutter "Micro
Floppy" aka "Microdisk" . As of 1998 is becoming a
questionable medium for anything other than cheap
transfer of small files, last ditch "temporary"
storage or use on older machines. 
 1.  400K: MF1-DD "Single Sided, Double Density,
Double Tracks" 1 square hole (lockable which will open
the hole. Closed is open! ?Stupid!). This is the only
disk 128K and 512K can read! Newer disks can format as
400K w/ preOS8. Not usable w/OS8 and up (data must be
transferred to other disk by use of earlier OS) Disk
can usually* be reformatted to be 800K. *the safety of
the second side is iffy unless reformatted w/OS7 which
skips bad spots. Will read as MFS unless OS7 trick
used (see below 800K). (history note: I paid $60 @
1985 dollars= ?100+$ current dollar price on 10 of
these). 
2.  800K: MF2-DD 2S/2D "Double Sided", "DS" disks:1
square hole, identical to 400K, but increase in
technology (*Quality control?) allow newer (512Ke,
Plus, MacII, and some SE)  to use both sides of disks.
Erasure allows choice of 400K on older machines. If
reformated to 400K using OS7 holding down Option key
allows HFS on 400K disk. Usable w/OS8 and up to ?. In
essence, you can store 800K on a double-sided, instead
of 400K on a single-sided disk despite both being made
the same way. Inspection methods and formatting
capability is the difference.
3. 1.4 MB: MF2HD or MFD-2HD "High Density" "HD" disks:
2 hole, major change allows X2 improvement. Save old
disks for recycle since new disks won't format to old
(unless fooled by taping over the second hole, which
is not a good idea. Don't trust it!).
4. OS7; HFS (Hierarchical Filing System) instead of
MFS (Macintosh Filing System) formating introduced ?
Essentially this means that HFS floppy won't work
pre-MacPlus and then only if OS7 or later installed. 
Double sided disks were formatted as single-sided
disks under MFS. HFS was incorporated into the 128K
ROMs in the Mac 512Ke and up. ? But Mac 512Ke doesn't
have the 8MB req'd for OS7 ?
5. OS8 abandons older formatting capability. HFS+
becomes the new format.

Things that I am very uncertain about:
MFS to HFS change; it seems to me that  Folders were
not really folders. You could put folders in other
folders.  Your files were really  separated. No more 1
huge list of files in the open dialog boxes.???
The Mac 128K/512K could not use HFS with this System.
Unless they had the "Hard Disk 20" file. ??
Early limitations were hardware, later limitations
after Plus  (HFS) were software.

 
The floppies's use now seems to be  non-network
transfer for:
A. Economical Transfer: if all that you have to do is
make quick person to person transfer, toss a floppy.  
b.: This is the last battle line in order to recover
that which either has not been more efficiently stored
or 
c. less reliable, less convenient storage of archived
files seldom used.
1. Mac 128 and 512 require 400K floppy
2. Essentially there is no difference between 400K and
800K except how they are formatted (one side vs.
both). Some early disks were bad enough that both
sides can't be formatted so they are 400K only.
3. 512KE to 

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Regardless I hope that
this assists someone besides myself.
Don




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Re: 400k disks

[Daniel Kendell]

Please, if you want your data to last, and not to ruin perfectly good 
1.44Mb (HD) discs, do /not/ just tape over the hole and use them. 
That'll work for one or two uses, but you will damage the disc and it 
will become completely unusable.

I have had this with old Acorn BBC's and Masters, HD discs that have 
been bodged to come up as a DD do not survive it for long.

Dan
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Re: 400k disks

[simon]

On 17-mrt-05, at 0:56, Thomas Burns wrote:
I just picked up a Mac 512k that someone was going to turn into a 
maquarium (heaven forbid).
My question is how do I make a 400k system disk for it? Someone 
earlier told me you can make 800k disks by putting tape over the hole 
on regular 1.4mb disks. Is there any way to format a 1.4 as a 400k?


the tape trick only works for changing 1.4Mb disks to 800k. 800k disks 
don's have the extra hole.

You can format on any mac running system 6 or lower. system 7 is not 
suitable because of differences in the desktop file. of course you 
could use disk copy to put a disk imag of a 400k floppy back on a disk 
up till system 8, but don't dare to mount the disk on the desktop of a 
sys 7 and up machine. it will render the floppy unbootable on an older 
mac.

When formatting a disk on system 6 and lower you get a message if you 
want a single or doublesided disk. choose single (400k).

Then there is the question of hfs and mfs. hfs (hierarchical file 
system) is used on the mac since around the introducion of the 800k 
(double) drives. before that disks were formatted with the mfs 
(macintosh file system) which was a flat file system, with virtual 
folders. that is why it is impossible to name two files the same on one 
disk. on system 6 your disk will defenetly be hfs, unless you used a 
special key (cmd or ctrl, can't remember) to force the formatting of an 
mfs disk.

anyway, apple introduced a special pixel in a disk's window to show hfs 
or mfs. there is a double line just below the titlebar. on the left 
there is one pixel extra black between the double lines. that indicates 
hfs. no pixel: mfs. this is as far as i can remember only for system 6 
and less, probably back to system 4.1 or so.

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Re: 400k disks

[Allan Hunter]

Ummm, a Mac that can natively boot Systems 1, 2, 3, 4, or 6 will also 
do just fine, didn't mean to imply otherwise.  If you've got a 
bootable diskette that lets you boot the Mac 512, you're already home 
free.  Just tape up those 1.4 meg diskette holes and format away. 
Not knowing anything about 800K diskettes, your 512 won't offer you 
options, so any diskette it formats is by definition a 400K diskette.

My prior advice is still relevant if you've got a 512 and no way to 
boot it.  Then you need operating system files and/or diskimages, and 
a pre-MacOS 8 environment to create the diskettes in.

Final disclaimer:  I would not rule out the possibility that Disk 
Copy under MacOS 8 or 9 would make valid 400K disks from 400K 
diskimages, it just won't be able to mount the suckers (either as 
images or as actual disks).  I don't KNOW that it can, I'm just not 
positive that it can't.

At 9:28 PM -0500 3/16/05, Allan Hunter wrote:
At 6:56 PM -0500 3/16/05, Thomas Burns wrote:
I just picked up a Mac 512k that someone was going to turn into a 
maquarium (heaven forbid).
My question is how do I make a 400k system disk for it? Someone 
earlier told me you can make 800k disks by putting tape over the 
hole on regular 1.4mb disks. Is there any way to format a 1.4 as a 
400k?
Yes, but you'll need a Mac that can still natively boot System 7.x 
because beginning with MacOS 8 (if I recall correctly) there's no 
longer native support for the file system (MFS) that 400K diskettes 
use.

--
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<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<http://home.earthlink.net/~ahunter>
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Re: 400k disks

[Allan Hunter]

At 6:56 PM -0500 3/16/05, Thomas Burns wrote:
I just picked up a Mac 512k that someone was going to turn into a 
maquarium (heaven forbid).
My question is how do I make a 400k system disk for it? Someone 
earlier told me you can make 800k disks by putting tape over the 
hole on regular 1.4mb disks. Is there any way to format a 1.4 as a 
400k?
Yes, but you'll need a Mac that can still natively boot System 7.x 
because beginning with MacOS 8 (if I recall correctly) there's no 
longer native support for the file system (MFS) that 400K diskettes 
use.

If you've got a System 7ish Mac, when you go to format your 
taped-over 1.4MB diskette, one choice should be "Single-Sided (400k)" 
and that's what you use.



Thanks,
Thomas
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Re: 400k disks

[Liam Proven]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:56:37 -0500, Thomas Burns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just picked up a Mac 512k that someone was going to turn into a maquarium
> (heaven forbid).
> My question is how do I make a 400k system disk for it? Someone earlier told
> me you can make 800k disks by putting tape over the hole on regular 1.4mb
> disks. Is there any way to format a 1.4 as a 400k?

400K disks are just single-sided double-density 80-track 3.5" ones,
aren't they? Before my time, to be honest, but I think so. If so,
standard DSDD disks - that would yield 800K in a DD drive - will just
format to 400K in a SS drive.

The tape-over-the-hole trick can work, but the magnetic coercivity of
HD disks is different. Not all drives will format them and they might
not last long if they do. I'm starting to hoard DD disks for vintage
kit...

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400k disks

[Thomas Burns]

I just picked up a Mac 512k that someone was going to turn into a maquarium 
(heaven forbid).
My question is how do I make a 400k system disk for it? Someone earlier told 
me you can make 800k disks by putting tape over the hole on regular 1.4mb 
disks. Is there any way to format a 1.4 as a 400k?

Thanks,
Thomas
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