Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Mark Benson]

On Jan 16, 2005, at 02:33 am, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
WHY HAS THE COMPUTER INDUSTRY TOTALLY FORGOTTEN WHAT
THE @[EMAIL PROTECTED]@# THE WORD "STANDARD" REALLY MEANS!!
Don't set me off on that one... :)
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Mark Benson]

That's true. The fact that MiniMac has an industry standard interface 
should
give it a longer life.
Indeed. It's worked for other Macs.
Without doubt it will do. Unfortunately, however, not all USB
peripheral manufacturers are wise enough to make Mac compatible
peripherals, although the situation has improved a lot since I first
got a Mac in 2000.
Only if the peripheral is specialized, like USB modems, USB ethernet 
cards,
USB KVM and video cameras with specialized interface software. Storage
devices/input devices are all standard and require generic drivers.

Printers are also an issue. It seems that Epson is the only major 
printer
company producing Mac printers?
Nope, HP, Lexmark, Canon and many other makers of USB printer hardware 
supply Mac drivers. Failing that a lot can be driven via CUPS, which is 
the Open Source print manager that OS X uses (the Print Setup stuff is 
just an Aqua front end). I mean I have driven a HP DeskWriter 520c over 
a network via a 68k Mac using the AppleTalk Bridge extension in OS 7.1 
- from OS X 10.3. It's amazing really how much you CAN do. Also if you 
have a Windows box you can print to Any Windows printer through SMB 
sharing from Mac OS X now. I use that to print to my Parallel only HP 
Laserjet.

A way around this issue of hardware support is Open Source. A lot of 
hardware
is supported on Linux because of Open Source. Wish it were the same on 
the
Mac.
OS X is based on BSD roots, and Linux stuff is easily portable. There 
has already been a big increase in thrid party support packages since 
OS X cam about, including stuff for PC only Webcams, Scanners and other 
oddities.

The LC series machines are far from dead, trust me :o)
I agree, I have one. I find it useless without a printer and old 
printers with
a good supply of printer ink are hard to come by. Know of anywhere I 
can get
an old Apple StyleWriter with ink supply? So that I can start my own 
desktop
publishing revolution?
One word for you. Network. Any work I do in a 68k is LAN'd to my iMac 
if it needs printing or any high-power manipulation. 68ks are not dead 
but in this day and age they have their limits. FWIW I have found that 
HP Deskwriters are 2-a-penny at dumps and junk stores and you can still 
get re-manufactured or pattern part ink cartridges for them at most 
good retailers.

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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- Lyndon Tiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> SCSI standards also changed over time with not so
> much backwards compatibility.
> 
> If anything new comes in the USB/Firewire standards,
> hopefully, backward 
> compatibility remains. Unlike the SCSI we have in
> old LCs which are not 
> compatible with modern day SCSI.

SCSI has excellent backwards and even forwards
compatability. I currently have a Fast/Wide 17gig
7,200 RPM drive connected to the external SCSI port
on my Radius 81/110. That port is Standard/Narrow,
or max 5 megabytes/second and 8 bits wide.

This works because the specifications of the newer
SCSI versions were written to include the ability
to "drop down" to lower speeds and narrower bus
widths to maintain compatability. That ensures that
newer devices can work on older interfaces and
older devices can work on newer interfaces.

USB 1.1 and 2.0 use the same 4 pin connectors. USB
2.0 devices are supposed to work at 1.1 speed when
connected to that interface, though most of them
really don't work too well due to the need for the
higher bandwidth. That's just a limitation of trying
to squeeze all the traffic of a multilane freeway
down a two lane road by raising the speed limit to
120 miles per hour. ;) USB 1.1 devices work on a
2.0 interface because the newer interface detects
them and slows down when sending data back and
forth.

I'd say SCSI has better backwards compatability than
USB 2.0 devices because for SCSI it was made almost
mandatory that newer, faster devices had to be able
to slow down and function properly when connected to
an older, slower interface. There are some SCSI
devices
(especially High Voltage Differential) that cannot
be adapted to slower controllers, but they're
expensive and specialized for uses where there's
never a need to do so. Almost all higher speed USB 2.0
devices require a USB 2.0 controller or they'll
just "fall on their face" when it comes to actually
using them, even if by definition of the USB standard
they "work".

Just for fun I installed a DVD-ROM drive in a USB 1.1
external case and connected it to a i.1 port on my
PC. It's about 50~60% fast enough to play movies.
If the DVD player software was able to setup a huge
software buffer, it'd be useable, but doing things
like pausing or reversing would not be fun. Thus DVD
playing requires USB 2.0, even if you have an
external drive that's 1.1 compatable.

If the drive was SCSI, it might have a little trouble
on standard/narrow, but I bet just playing a movie
would proceed without problems, because the drive
is sending 8 bits at a time instead of 1 like USB.

FireWire uses a 6 pin connector, most of the time.
Some devices have a 4 pin connector, which requires
an adaptor or special cable. Now FireWire 800 uses
a 9 pin connector. Waitaminute! Weren't these new
interfaces supposed to REDUCE complexity?

Laptop bags have exploded anew with USB and FireWire
cables and adaptors for all the various "better
ideas".
If only when the USB spec was being written, they had
commanded "Thou shalt use this ONE connector type, NO
EXCEPTIONS!" ;) But n. There's Type A (the
original), Type B (the smaller, square one), and at
least three different "mini" USB connectors created
by Sony and other companies for their cameras and
other devices. My Kodak DC-280 uses a proprietary
multi-pin round DIN connector that combines USB and
RS-232 ports plus composite video output and who
knows what all else. (Fortunately it uses Compact
Flash cards and has no internal RAM so it's not a
problem.)

I haven't counted all the different FireWire connector
styles, but I bet FW800 and variants thereof will
at least double the number there are now.

WHY HAS THE COMPUTER INDUSTRY TOTALLY FORGOTTEN WHAT
THE @[EMAIL PROTECTED]@# THE WORD "STANDARD" REALLY MEANS!!

=
It will be total Fandemonium, Summer 2005!
Check website for further info.
http://www.fandemonium.org



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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Lyndon Tiu]

On January 15, 2005 12:05 pm, Mark Benson wrote:
> On Jan 15, 2005, at 07:16 pm, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
> > Yes. PDS is a standard for Apple but not for the whole industry.
>
> At that time there were no industry-wide standards in interfaces.
>

That's true. The fact that MiniMac has an industry standard interface should 
give it a longer life.

> > Back then in the early 90s, Apple had something like 7-9% market share
> > of PCs
> > at it's peak so PDS (and SCSI in Apple computers) were only present in
> > 7-9%
> > of computers vs. USB and Firewire which is present in most new
> > computer sold
> > today for an effective 100% market share. Hopefully, that will mean
> > more
> > peripherals and more expandability and longer life for the MiniMac
> > than the
> > original LC.
>
> Without doubt it will do. Unfortunately, however, not all USB
> peripheral manufacturers are wise enough to make Mac compatible
> peripherals, although the situation has improved a lot since I first
> got a Mac in 2000.
>

Only if the peripheral is specialized, like USB modems, USB ethernet cards, 
USB KVM and video cameras with specialized interface software. Storage 
devices/input devices are all standard and require generic drivers.

Printers are also an issue. It seems that Epson is the only major printer 
company producing Mac printers?

A way around this issue of hardware support is Open Source. A lot of hardware 
is supported on Linux because of Open Source. Wish it were the same on the 
Mac.

> > SCSI standards also changed over time with not so much backwards
> > compatibility.
>
> SCSI is still backwards compatible. You just have to talk to it right.
> I run a pair of 68-pin U160 drives off an LC 475 board in a custom
> case. I also use an 80-pin U160 drive in my Quadra 840av (via an
> adapter and a NuBus SCSI card). It's not as hard as it looks. Basically
> if you can get an upper-byte terminated wide-to-narrow SCSI adapter
> then you are most of the way there. I have however found that in some
> machines the 68-pin drive won't work without you put a terminator on
> the end of the 50-pin ribbon. Other than that it's pretty
> straight-forward.
>
> > If anything new comes in the USB/Firewire standards, hopefully,
> > backward
> > compatibility remains. Unlike the SCSI we have in old LCs which are not
> > compatible with modern day SCSI. if backward compatibility remain,
> > then the
> > MiniMac will have a longer happier life than the original LC.
>
> The LC series machines are far from dead, trust me :o)
>

I agree, I have one. I find it useless without a printer and old printers with 
a good supply of printer ink are hard to come by. Know of anywhere I can get 
an old Apple StyleWriter with ink supply? So that I can start my own desktop 
publishing revolution?

--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Mark Benson]

On Jan 15, 2005, at 07:16 pm, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
Yes. PDS is a standard for Apple but not for the whole industry.
At that time there were no industry-wide standards in interfaces.
Back then in the early 90s, Apple had something like 7-9% market share 
of PCs
at it's peak so PDS (and SCSI in Apple computers) were only present in 
7-9%
of computers vs. USB and Firewire which is present in most new 
computer sold
today for an effective 100% market share. Hopefully, that will mean 
more
peripherals and more expandability and longer life for the MiniMac 
than the
original LC.
Without doubt it will do. Unfortunately, however, not all USB 
peripheral manufacturers are wise enough to make Mac compatible 
peripherals, although the situation has improved a lot since I first 
got a Mac in 2000.

SCSI standards also changed over time with not so much backwards
compatibility.
SCSI is still backwards compatible. You just have to talk to it right. 
I run a pair of 68-pin U160 drives off an LC 475 board in a custom 
case. I also use an 80-pin U160 drive in my Quadra 840av (via an 
adapter and a NuBus SCSI card). It's not as hard as it looks. Basically 
if you can get an upper-byte terminated wide-to-narrow SCSI adapter 
then you are most of the way there. I have however found that in some 
machines the 68-pin drive won't work without you put a terminator on 
the end of the 50-pin ribbon. Other than that it's pretty 
straight-forward.

If anything new comes in the USB/Firewire standards, hopefully, 
backward
compatibility remains. Unlike the SCSI we have in old LCs which are not
compatible with modern day SCSI. if backward compatibility remain, 
then the
MiniMac will have a longer happier life than the original LC.
The LC series machines are far from dead, trust me :o)
--
Mark Benson
AIM - SilValleyPirate
MSN - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Lyndon Tiu]

On January 15, 2005 09:46 am, Mark Benson wrote:
> On Jan 15, 2005, at 03:39 pm, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
> > LCPDS never was a standard in computer hardware. USB and Firewire both
> > are.
>
> LCPDS is derived from 68040 PDS which was actually the standard
> interface for the 68040. There were a lot of interface cards made for
> LCPDS, more, by rights, than there maybe should have been ;o)
> No early Macs (before the x200 powermacs) used a standard interface
> technology (they all used PDS of NuBus, or both) so it wasn't any
> different from the rest of the Mac crowd.

Yes. PDS is a standard for Apple but not for the whole industry.

Back then in the early 90s, Apple had something like 7-9% market share of PCs 
at it's peak so PDS (and SCSI in Apple computers) were only present in 7-9% 
of computers vs. USB and Firewire which is present in most new computer sold 
today for an effective 100% market share. Hopefully, that will mean more 
peripherals and more expandability and longer life for the MiniMac than the 
original LC.

>
> > SCSI too was never a standard in deskstop computer hardware (maybe for
> > workstations and *nix but not PCs which is the majority) but USB and
> > Firewire
> > both are.
>
> SCSI is the most widespread and standardized interface in existence,
> it's just always been to darn expensive for the home market. Again all
> Apple computers used it.
>
> Back in the early 90s Apple were embroiled in a war against the PCs so
> called 'standards' by using their own, better ones. These days Apple
> uses open industry standards so that their computers have a better
> chance of slipping straight in in place of a PC, or indeed alongside or
> in cooperation with one or more.
>
> Different times, different rules, but the same idea.
>

SCSI standards also changed over time with not so much backwards 
compatibility.

If anything new comes in the USB/Firewire standards, hopefully, backward 
compatibility remains. Unlike the SCSI we have in old LCs which are not 
compatible with modern day SCSI. if backward compatibility remain, then the 
MiniMac will have a longer happier life than the original LC.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Mark Benson]

On Jan 15, 2005, at 03:39 pm, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
LCPDS never was a standard in computer hardware. USB and Firewire both 
are.
LCPDS is derived from 68040 PDS which was actually the standard 
interface for the 68040. There were a lot of interface cards made for 
LCPDS, more, by rights, than there maybe should have been ;o)
No early Macs (before the x200 powermacs) used a standard interface 
technology (they all used PDS of NuBus, or both) so it wasn't any 
different from the rest of the Mac crowd.

SCSI too was never a standard in deskstop computer hardware (maybe for
workstations and *nix but not PCs which is the majority) but USB and 
Firewire
both are.
SCSI is the most widespread and standardized interface in existence, 
it's just always been to darn expensive for the home market. Again all 
Apple computers used it.

Back in the early 90s Apple were embroiled in a war against the PCs so 
called 'standards' by using their own, better ones. These days Apple 
uses open industry standards so that their computers have a better 
chance of slipping straight in in place of a PC, or indeed alongside or 
in cooperation with one or more.

Different times, different rules, but the same idea.
--
Mark Benson
AIM - SilValleyPirate
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Lyndon Tiu]

On January 13, 2005 04:14 pm, Mark Benson wrote:
> On Jan 12, 2005, at 08:21 pm, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
> > http://www.apple.com/macmini/
>
> The Mac mini is the LC475 for the 21st century! Possibilities limited
> by it's interfaces and petit size (having FireWire and USB 2.0 and
> Ethernet adds up pretty much to the same as having SCSI and a LCPDS in
> my book) 

LCPDS never was a standard in computer hardware. USB and Firewire both are.

SCSI too was never a standard in deskstop computer hardware (maybe for 
workstations and *nix but not PCs which is the majority) but USB and Firewire 
both are.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- Marcin Wichary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Next time I hope they form a focus group and
> actually
> > listen to what they have to say.
> 
> Everyone knows that often the customers *say* one
> thing, but in reality *want* another.

O. So all of us who've been saying "We want a Mac
with five or six expansion slots." ever since the
Beige G3 was released with a measley 3, have been
heard as saying "Oh 3 slots is FINE! How about cutting
down to two? Oh, you've made one model with four?
Yippie!"?

=
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Check website for further info.
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- aedan mcghie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My school Linux box has the power button on the
> front... where the kids kick it as they go by.

One way to fix that. Do what I did in 1995 on a Win95
box where the soft power button was set in BIOS to
instant off (and unlike 98 it [EMAIL PROTECTED] obeys that
setting!). I took a disc spacer ring from a dead
5.25" MFM hard drive, a couple small bolts, spacers
and nuts then with a bit of work with a drill I
mounted
a power button guard on the case.

People sitting at that desk soon learned to keep their
knees away from the computer. :) The same thing could
be done easier with a couple of really small,
"tubular" style cabinet door pulls, one mounted on
either side of the button.

=
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Clark Martin]

At 11:20 AM +0100 1/14/05, Marcin Wichary wrote:
Next time I hope they form a focus group and actually
listen to what they have to say.
Everyone knows that often the customers *say* one thing, but in 
reality *want* another.
Such as they will say what they WANT but not what they are willing to PAY 
for.
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Redwood City, CA, USA
Macintosh / Internet Consulting
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Marcin Wichary]

Next time I hope they form a focus group and actually
listen to what they have to say.
Everyone knows that often the customers *say* one thing, but in reality 
*want* another.

 Marcin Wichary
e:\> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
w:\> www.aci.com.pl/mwichary >> Attached
w:\> www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/gui >> Graphical User Interface gallery
w:\> www.10yearsofbeingboring.com >> 10 years of Being Boring
w:\> www.usability.pl >> Usability.pl
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[list]

On Jan 13, 2005, at 23:35, Neal Wingate wrote:
I would like to add the idea was good but the execution
is all wrong. Next time I hope they form a focus group and actually
listen to what they have to say.
My school Linux box has the power button on the front... where the kids 
kick it as they go by.

aedan
One OS To Rule Them All, One OS To Find Them, One OS To Bring Them All 
And With The NDA Bind Them

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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Mark Benson]

On Jan 12, 2005, at 08:21 pm, Lyndon Tiu wrote:
http://www.apple.com/macmini/
The Mac mini is the LC475 for the 21st century! Possibilities limited 
by it's interfaces and petit size (having FireWire and USB 2.0 and 
Ethernet adds up pretty much to the same as having SCSI and a LCPDS in 
my book) but a damn fine piece of engineering and seriously CHEAP!

It's cute, it's small, it's easy to put out of the way where it won't 
clutter the place up and it'll plug into any monitor you care to try it 
with. It also has that same tidy from that that early LCs had that was 
flat, apart from a little disk drive slot. From the pic on the design 
page at Apple.com it looks like the lids held on by the same array of 
plastic clips too :P

--
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Neal Wingate]

Nothing at all. I'm looking at it from a Joe User PC user's
perspective. I would like to add the idea was good but the execution
is all wrong. Next time I hope they form a focus group and actually
listen to what they have to say.
Ok...that thread is dead now. Have fun!

Neal


On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 00:31:25 +0100, Norbert van Bemmel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >--- Neal Wingate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes it is neat but could it be the next road apple?
> > > Power button in the back again. Groan...
> 
> The Performa 475 had a power button at the backside too, and that was by no 
> means a road Apple! What's wrong with power buttons at the backside?
> 
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Norbert van Bemmel]

>--- Neal Wingate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Yes it is neat but could it be the next road apple?
> > Power button in the back again. Groan...

The Performa 475 had a power button at the backside too, and that was by no 
means a road Apple! What's wrong with power buttons at the backside?

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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Beniamino Cenci Goga]

I believe it is really made for swithchers. A true Mac user had to 
add the display (> 900 USD used for the cheapest Apple branded) and 
the mouse and keyboard (other 100 bucks).

While a PC user will be happy either to stick with his/her original 
stuff (display, mouse and keyboard) or to buy cheap accessories.

For instance at my lab we have 3 lecturers and 3 PhD students: I have 
offered them 6 iMac mini. With less than 3000 euros I can buy 6 Mac 
and spread the Mac verb!!! No need to buy more ethernet switches nor 
to add more T1 cable. F.rom a single Airport Express I can feed all 
of them from the same access point. iMac mini comes with airport 
extreme out of the box!

They will keep using their horrible keyboards, weird 99 buttons mice 
and 15 inches Costco LCD displays. They could hide the iMac mini 
behind their display and will not even notice the different 
environment over their desktop (the real one).

Personally I don't like this iMac mini, but I think it will be a bingo!
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- Neal Wingate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yes it is neat but could it be the next road apple?
> Power button in the back again. Groan...

Well, if it does the Road Apple, at least the Cube
will stack nicely on top...

=
It will be total Fandemonium, Summer 2005!
Check website for further info.
http://www.fandemonium.org



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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- Lyndon Tiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> http://www.apple.com/macmini/

There were some photos of a fake called the iHome
floating around. It was very close to the look of the
Mac Mini. ;)

=
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Neal Wingate]

Well as you know this is geared towards the masses so I expect allot of
bitching in the future. As for me I just let it snooze. 

Neal
~~~
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign
\ /  No HTML/RTF in email
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Dylan McDermond]

At 4:08 PM -0500 1/12/05, Neal Wingate wrote:
Yes it is neat but could it be the next road apple? Power button in 
the
back again. Groan...
Who turns their OS X machine off? Sleep, man, sleep ...
- Dylan
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Chris Fohl]

If you look carefully you can see that the entire bottom
appears to be one large rubber foot!
Chris
On Jan 12, 2005, at 18:19, Clark Martin wrote:
At 4:08 PM -0500 1/12/05, Neal Wingate wrote:
The power button on the back is probably a feature.  The mini is so 
small and light that if you pushed the button it would just push the 
computer.  By putting it in the back it is easier to rest you hand on 
top to hold it in place.  :)

There are probably other similar problem like the cables pulling it 
off the desk.  Hmmm maybe the Mini 2 will have pre-applied velcro to 
help keep it in place.
--
Clark Martin
Redwood City, CA, USA
Macintosh / Internet Consulting

"I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway"
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Clark Martin]

At 4:08 PM -0500 1/12/05, Neal Wingate wrote:
Yes it is neat but could it be the next road apple? Power button in the
back again. Groan...
The power button on the back is probably a feature.  The mini is so 
small and light that if you pushed the button it would just push the 
computer.  By putting it in the back it is easier to rest you hand on 
top to hold it in place.  :)

There are probably other similar problem like the cables pulling it 
off the desk.  Hmmm maybe the Mini 2 will have pre-applied velcro to 
help keep it in place.
--
Clark Martin
Redwood City, CA, USA
Macintosh / Internet Consulting

"I'm a designated driver on the Information Super Highway"
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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Lyndon Tiu]

Neal Wingate wrote:
Yes it is neat but could it be the next road apple? Power button in the
back again. Groan...
 

And usb port in the back.
1 GB max RAM, I don't think it's a road apple.
Max 80GB and max 1.4something Ghz can be a called road apple features.
But it's the OS that finally determines what the machine is.
--
Lyndon Tiu.

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Re: Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Neal Wingate]

Yes it is neat but could it be the next road apple? Power button in the
back again. Groan...

Neal
~~~
Yes, it can be done.
http://files.customize.org/ss/MyLittleLC1-0.png



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Not your typical vintage but check this out!

[Lyndon Tiu]

http://www.apple.com/macmini/
--
Lyndon Tiu
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