Discouraging how updates seem like downgrades

[Kathy Brandt]

This thing with how the emoji keyboard is now sounding in keyboards is just 
something else to deal with, besides how they changed the sound of the 
up-and-down volume buttons, and earlier, the way FaceTime sounds when you make 
a call, and hell now, on the iPod touch with FaceTime, you have to be using 
earphones for some reason in order to have any control of the buttons, which 
never used to be the case. I wrote to Apple asking why they have to do stuff 
like this, as a post to fixing what we point out, like how before, the 
clipboard would clear out, as opposed to now, if you want to copy and paste 
more than one thing, you have to hit copy twice in order to get the right thing 
put onto the clipboard, to paste, and why you now have to go through a process 
in order to delete individual items from history in safari, all of which never 
used to be this way. It is discouraging to have an older iPod on ios9.5, since 
it can’t be updated, but which works the way it’s supposed to with these things.

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Re: Discouraging how updates seem like downgrades

[kelby carlson]

I believe there comes a point at which a company's updates of its products hit 
the law of diminishing returns, and either don't improve anything or actively 
make the product worse. I think Apple has hit that point.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 11, 2018, at 7:04 AM, Kathy Brandt  wrote:
> 
> This thing with how the emoji keyboard is now sounding in keyboards is just 
> something else to deal with, besides how they changed the sound of the 
> up-and-down volume buttons, and earlier, the way FaceTime sounds when you 
> make a call, and hell now, on the iPod touch with FaceTime, you have to be 
> using earphones for some reason in order to have any control of the buttons, 
> which never used to be the case. I wrote to Apple asking why they have to do 
> stuff like this, as a post to fixing what we point out, like how before, the 
> clipboard would clear out, as opposed to now, if you want to copy and paste 
> more than one thing, you have to hit copy twice in order to get the right 
> thing put onto the clipboard, to paste, and why you now have to go through a 
> process in order to delete individual items from history in safari, all of 
> which never used to be this way. It is discouraging to have an older iPod on 
> ios9.5, since it can’t be updated, but which works the way it’s supposed to 
> with these things.
> 
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Re: Discouraging how updates seem like downgrades

[Devin Prater]

Not all change is good, sure. But not all change is bad, either. The volume 
sound now used has been used on the Mac for a long while. Bugs are there, yes, 
but they’re there for sighted users as well. It is not just us, so don’t feel 
persecuted against.

> On Apr 11, 2018, at 6:10 AM, kelby carlson  wrote:
> 
> I believe there comes a point at which a company's updates of its products 
> hit the law of diminishing returns, and either don't improve anything or 
> actively make the product worse. I think Apple has hit that point.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Apr 11, 2018, at 7:04 AM, Kathy Brandt  > wrote:
> 
>> This thing with how the emoji keyboard is now sounding in keyboards is just 
>> something else to deal with, besides how they changed the sound of the 
>> up-and-down volume buttons, and earlier, the way FaceTime sounds when you 
>> make a call, and hell now, on the iPod touch with FaceTime, you have to be 
>> using earphones for some reason in order to have any control of the buttons, 
>> which never used to be the case. I wrote to Apple asking why they have to do 
>> stuff like this, as a post to fixing what we point out, like how before, the 
>> clipboard would clear out, as opposed to now, if you want to copy and paste 
>> more than one thing, you have to hit copy twice in order to get the right 
>> thing put onto the clipboard, to paste, and why you now have to go through a 
>> process in order to delete individual items from history in safari, all of 
>> which never used to be this way. It is discouraging to have an older iPod on 
>> ios9.5, since it can’t be updated, but which works the way it’s supposed to 
>> with these things.
>> 
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Re: Discouraging how updates seem like downgrades

[Yolanda Thompson]

with a slight hearing loss, I love the new volume sounds!

On 4/11/18, Devin Prater  wrote:
> Not all change is good, sure. But not all change is bad, either. The volume
> sound now used has been used on the Mac for a long while. Bugs are there,
> yes, but they’re there for sighted users as well. It is not just us, so
> don’t feel persecuted against.
>
>> On Apr 11, 2018, at 6:10 AM, kelby carlson 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I believe there comes a point at which a company's updates of its products
>> hit the law of diminishing returns, and either don't improve anything or
>> actively make the product worse. I think Apple has hit that point.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Apr 11, 2018, at 7:04 AM, Kathy Brandt > > wrote:
>>
>>> This thing with how the emoji keyboard is now sounding in keyboards is
>>> just something else to deal with, besides how they changed the sound of
>>> the up-and-down volume buttons, and earlier, the way FaceTime sounds when
>>> you make a call, and hell now, on the iPod touch with FaceTime, you have
>>> to be using earphones for some reason in order to have any control of the
>>> buttons, which never used to be the case. I wrote to Apple asking why
>>> they have to do stuff like this, as a post to fixing what we point out,
>>> like how before, the clipboard would clear out, as opposed to now, if you
>>> want to copy and paste more than one thing, you have to hit copy twice in
>>> order to get the right thing put onto the clipboard, to paste, and why
>>> you now have to go through a process in order to delete individual items
>>> from history in safari, all of which never used to be this way. It is
>>> discouraging to have an older iPod on ios9.5, since it can’t be updated,
>>> but which works the way it’s supposed to with these things.
>>>
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Re: Discouraging how updates seem like downgrades

['Simon' via VIPhone]

Why?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 11, 2018, at 10:17 AM, Yolanda Thompson  wrote:
> 
> with a slight hearing loss, I love the new volume sounds!
> 
>> On 4/11/18, Devin Prater  wrote:
>> Not all change is good, sure. But not all change is bad, either. The volume
>> sound now used has been used on the Mac for a long while. Bugs are there,
>> yes, but they’re there for sighted users as well. It is not just us, so
>> don’t feel persecuted against.
>> 
>>> On Apr 11, 2018, at 6:10 AM, kelby carlson 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I believe there comes a point at which a company's updates of its products
>>> hit the law of diminishing returns, and either don't improve anything or
>>> actively make the product worse. I think Apple has hit that point.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Apr 11, 2018, at 7:04 AM, Kathy Brandt >> > wrote:
>>> 
 This thing with how the emoji keyboard is now sounding in keyboards is
 just something else to deal with, besides how they changed the sound of
 the up-and-down volume buttons, and earlier, the way FaceTime sounds when
 you make a call, and hell now, on the iPod touch with FaceTime, you have
 to be using earphones for some reason in order to have any control of the
 buttons, which never used to be the case. I wrote to Apple asking why
 they have to do stuff like this, as a post to fixing what we point out,
 like how before, the clipboard would clear out, as opposed to now, if you
 want to copy and paste more than one thing, you have to hit copy twice in
 order to get the right thing put onto the clipboard, to paste, and why
 you now have to go through a process in order to delete individual items
 from history in safari, all of which never used to be this way. It is
 discouraging to have an older iPod on ios9.5, since it can’t be updated,
 but which works the way it’s supposed to with these things.
 
 --
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 list.
 
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Re: Discouraging how updates seem like downgrades

[Bill Gallik]

Hi Katya,

I realize that what I’m about to write here is not going to mitigate the 
“update” frustrations, but I don’t think that Apple engineers are doing any of 
this intentionally.

Rather, what I believe we (the VoiceOver user community) are experiencing is 
one of the serious flaws of Object Oriented Programming languages (i.e., C++ 
and others).  That is, the propensity to introduce unintended consequences.  So 
much of code in OOP is “hidden” from the programmers in favor of a more 
automated to coding that situations can arise that were not ever considered 
possible.

I’m confident that Apple engineers will get this resolved, but it does appear 
that VoiceOver integration testing is somewhat lacking - no doubt!


- Bill from Ino, Wisconsin
- "Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their 
guard and give you an opportunity to commit more."
- US Humorist, Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

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RE: Discouraging how updates seem like downgrades

[M. Taylor]

Hello Bill,

A very, very insightful observation about object-oriented-programming.  

While this thought had not occurred to me, now that you bring it to our 
attention, I concur.  

The only non-object oriented programming language of which I am aware is 
assembly.  Are you suggesting that were assembly being used, these problems 
would not occur so frequently?  

Just something to consider.

Mark

From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Bill Gallik
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 7:39 AM
To: viPhone E-Mail List
Subject: Re: Discouraging how updates seem like downgrades

Hi Katya,

I realize that what I’m about to write here is not going to mitigate the 
“update” frustrations, but I don’t think that Apple engineers are doing any of 
this intentionally.

Rather, what I believe we (the VoiceOver user community) are experiencing is 
one of the serious flaws of Object Oriented Programming languages (i.e., C++ 
and others).  That is, the propensity to introduce unintended consequences.  So 
much of code in OOP is “hidden” from the programmers in favor of a more 
automated to coding that situations can arise that were not ever considered 
possible.

I’m confident that Apple engineers will get this resolved, but it does appear 
that VoiceOver integration testing is somewhat lacking - no doubt!


- Bill from Ino, Wisconsin
- "Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their 
guard and give you an opportunity to commit more."
- US Humorist, Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

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Re: Discouraging how updates seem like downgrades

[Bill Gallik]

 Thanks Mark.

Assembly would be quite intensive, but standard C is not an Object Oriented 
Programming language neither - and there are others as well.

The thing about OOP is that Class and Class Inheritance isn’t always obvious 
where “collateral impact” is concerned and although OOP does streamline program 
implementation I wonder if it doesn’t afford introduction of some of these 
issues.

I cannot see a realistic possibility of Apple changing to a non-OOP coding 
language, but I think this does help explain why these issues arise after a 
system upgrade.  I just cannot entertain the notion that Apple - nor any 
company - engineers would intentionally or carelessly introduce some of these 
issues.  Correcting such problems is so very expensive!

- Bill from Ino, Wisconsin
- "Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their 
guard and give you an opportunity to commit more."
- US Humorist, Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

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Re: Discouraging how updates seem like downgrades

[Tom Lange]

I’ve been using iPhones since IOS version 4  dot God knows what and I can’t 
seem to recall having seen any kind of information anywhere on the device 
regarding what was supposed to have been fixed or enhanced in an incremental 
IOS update. Does such information exist, and if so, where? Just curious.

Tom  

> On Apr 11, 2018, at 10:05 PM, Bill Gallik  wrote:
> 
>  Thanks Mark.
> 
> Assembly would be quite intensive, but standard C is not an Object Oriented 
> Programming language neither - and there are others as well.
> 
> The thing about OOP is that Class and Class Inheritance isn’t always obvious 
> where “collateral impact” is concerned and although OOP does streamline 
> program implementation I wonder if it doesn’t afford introduction of some of 
> these issues.
> 
> I cannot see a realistic possibility of Apple changing to a non-OOP coding 
> language, but I think this does help explain why these issues arise after a 
> system upgrade.  I just cannot entertain the notion that Apple - nor any 
> company - engineers would intentionally or carelessly introduce some of these 
> issues.  Correcting such problems is so very expensive!
> 
> - Bill from Ino, Wisconsin
> - "Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their 
> guard and give you an opportunity to commit more."
> - US Humorist, Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)
> 
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