Re: [volt-nuts] Extender Card for Guildline 9975
On 18 Jan 2014 14:38, Joe Hobart n...@npgcable.com wrote: Does anyone have or know where I can buy or borrow a 12/24 contact extender card for the Guildline 9975? I have a single sided extender, but the signal demodulator board requires a double sided extender. Of course, it is this card that needs additional testing and possible repair. Thank you, Joe Hobart Flagstaff, Arizona ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive
Well, the 3458A now is in production for about 25 years , and only around 50k units have been sold. (That's an estimation by Joe Gellers series number collection) As the 3458A is a niche product with homeopathic series volume, the development, verification/validation, special reliability engineering, selection and burn-in measures, QA costs had to be paid per unit in the beginning. To my opinion, especially the 3458A was designed mainly for military requirements (Tamb 55°C). The military was willing to pay a premium (HP = High Price) at that time. So HP was able to realize that price. All that development budget is long paid, and after end of the Cold War, the military does not order so many devices anymore, what caused the problems of the TM business (finally = Keysight, urgh!). But as that market is tight, competitors are few, so the price is not going down, instead it's increasing over the years, from $5900 to around $8500. It would be interesting to calcualte the BOM of the 3458A. As they use many custom specific components, it should be relatively expensive. There is no parameter in the HP3458A specifications, that the device has to be powered constantly to meet the specs. Those very high 8ppm/yr. drift might apply only during continuous operation. During power down, the LTZ should not drift at all, as the ageing mechanism is driven by temperature. But there might be (there are indeed) considerable hysteresis effects. I have set the temperature of my HP3458A to ~ 60°C, I shut it down after usage, and the periodical comparison to 3 other references shows a drift of less than 1ppm/year. Frank ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive
One problem with leaving the 3458A on all the time is the vacuum fluorescent display. These have a rather limited lifetime and leaving them on 24/7 puts a lot of hours on the tube. Someday those displays will become unobtainium... ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive
Actually in spite of it's high price I feel the 3458A represents a bargain. When it was introduced in 1989 it was $5900. A price it held for decades. Although designed in then 80's it's accuracy is still unsurpassed. The 8846A is much less expensive because it has only about a quarter the parts. With few that are hand selected and/or aged. And all though both meter have well executed designs the result is the 3458A has about a magnitude greater accuracy. And anyone in Metrology can attest to the fact that the cost of accuracy is exponential. But the thought I wanted to contribute to the dialog is the real value of the 3458A is the body of knowledge built around the thousands of 358A's some running continuously for nearly three decades. The characteristics of the 3458A are perhaps the best documented of any electronic instrument ever made. That is priceless. When comparing that body of knowledge to individual units I have found every 3458A is a little different and seem to each have their own personality. In a side note, recently I owned what appeared to be the original 3458A. I cannot remember the serial number, but it had the numbered stickers identifying the boards that can be seen in the original service manual. And it was still working flawlessly. Thomas Knox Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 17:41:26 +0100 From: frank.stellm...@freenet.de To: volt-nuts@febo.com Subject: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive Well, the 3458A now is in production for about 25 years , and only around 50k units have been sold. (That's an estimation by Joe Gellers series number collection) As the 3458A is a niche product with homeopathic series volume, the development, verification/validation, special reliability engineering, selection and burn-in measures, QA costs had to be paid per unit in the beginning. To my opinion, especially the 3458A was designed mainly for military requirements (Tamb 55°C). The military was willing to pay a premium (HP = High Price) at that time. So HP was able to realize that price. All that development budget is long paid, and after end of the Cold War, the military does not order so many devices anymore, what caused the problems of the TM business (finally = Keysight, urgh!). But as that market is tight, competitors are few, so the price is not going down, instead it's increasing over the years, from $5900 to around $8500. It would be interesting to calcualte the BOM of the 3458A. As they use many custom specific components, it should be relatively expensive. There is no parameter in the HP3458A specifications, that the device has to be powered constantly to meet the specs. Those very high 8ppm/yr. drift might apply only during continuous operation. During power down, the LTZ should not drift at all, as the ageing mechanism is driven by temperature. But there might be (there are indeed) considerable hysteresis effects. I have set the temperature of my HP3458A to ~ 60°C, I shut it down after usage, and the periodical comparison to 3 other references shows a drift of less than 1ppm/year. Frank ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive
In fact if you look at a 1982 HP catalog you will see that the 3456A was selling for around $3,700 and given inflation the 3458A is still a pretty good bargain when it was introduced in 1989. In 1989 the 3456A was selling for $4,600 while the 3458A was selling for $5,900. I wonder if there will ever be a 3459A 9.5 digit meter? With a super miniture Josehpson Junction for a reference? Bill - Original Message - From: Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive Actually in spite of it's high price I feel the 3458A represents a bargain. When it was introduced in 1989 it was $5900. A price it held for decades. Although designed in then 80's it's accuracy is still unsurpassed. The 8846A is much less expensive because it has only about a quarter the parts. With few that are hand selected and/or aged. And all though both meter have well executed designs the result is the 3458A has about a magnitude greater accuracy. And anyone in Metrology can attest to the fact that the cost of accuracy is exponential. But the thought I wanted to contribute to the dialog is the real value of the 3458A is the body of knowledge built around the thousands of 358A's some running continuously for nearly three decades. The characteristics of the 3458A are perhaps the best documented of any electronic instrument ever made. That is priceless. When comparing that body of knowledge to individual units I have found every 3458A is a little different and seem to each have their own personality. In a side note, recently I owned what appeared to be the original 3458A. I cannot remember the serial number, but it had the numbered stickers identifying the boards that can be seen in the original service manual. And it was still working flawlessly. Thomas Knox Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 17:41:26 +0100 From: frank.stellm...@freenet.de To: volt-nuts@febo.com Subject: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive Well, the 3458A now is in production for about 25 years , and only around 50k units have been sold. (That's an estimation by Joe Gellers series number collection) As the 3458A is a niche product with homeopathic series volume, the development, verification/validation, special reliability engineering, selection and burn-in measures, QA costs had to be paid per unit in the beginning. To my opinion, especially the 3458A was designed mainly for military requirements (Tamb 55°C). The military was willing to pay a premium (HP = High Price) at that time. So HP was able to realize that price. All that development budget is long paid, and after end of the Cold War, the military does not order so many devices anymore, what caused the problems of the TM business (finally = Keysight, urgh!). But as that market is tight, competitors are few, so the price is not going down, instead it's increasing over the years, from $5900 to around $8500. It would be interesting to calcualte the BOM of the 3458A. As they use many custom specific components, it should be relatively expensive. There is no parameter in the HP3458A specifications, that the device has to be powered constantly to meet the specs. Those very high 8ppm/yr. drift might apply only during continuous operation. During power down, the LTZ should not drift at all, as the ageing mechanism is driven by temperature. But there might be (there are indeed) considerable hysteresis effects. I have set the temperature of my HP3458A to ~ 60°C, I shut it down after usage, and the periodical comparison to 3 other references shows a drift of less than 1ppm/year. Frank ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive
Bill, Would a Josephson Junction standard need to be calibrated? Adjusted and maybe compared, yes, but you should not need to calibrate a primary standard? Years ago we had HP Cesium Frequency Standards at work. There were primary standards and good to 4E-12 with no additional calibration. Joe On 1/18/2014 3:37 PM, Tom Miller wrote: Can you imagine what it would cost to get that calibrated? Tom - Original Message - From: Bill Gold wpgold3...@att.net To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2014 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive In fact if you look at a 1982 HP catalog you will see that the 3456A was selling for around $3,700 and given inflation the 3458A is still a pretty good bargain when it was introduced in 1989. In 1989 the 3456A was selling for $4,600 while the 3458A was selling for $5,900. I wonder if there will ever be a 3459A 9.5 digit meter? With a super miniture Josehpson Junction for a reference? Bill - Original Message - From: Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive Actually in spite of it's high price I feel the 3458A represents a bargain. When it was introduced in 1989 it was $5900. A price it held for decades. Although designed in then 80's it's accuracy is still unsurpassed. The 8846A is much less expensive because it has only about a quarter the parts. With few that are hand selected and/or aged. And all though both meter have well executed designs the result is the 3458A has about a magnitude greater accuracy. And anyone in Metrology can attest to the fact that the cost of accuracy is exponential. But the thought I wanted to contribute to the dialog is the real value of the 3458A is the body of knowledge built around the thousands of 358A's some running continuously for nearly three decades. The characteristics of the 3458A are perhaps the best documented of any electronic instrument ever made. That is priceless. When comparing that body of knowledge to individual units I have found every 3458A is a little different and seem to each have their own personality. In a side note, recently I owned what appeared to be the original 3458A. I cannot remember the serial number, but it had the numbered stickers identifying the boards that can be seen in the original service manual. And it was still working flawlessly. Thomas Knox Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 17:41:26 +0100 From: frank.stellm...@freenet.de To: volt-nuts@febo.com Subject: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive Well, the 3458A now is in production for about 25 years , and only around 50k units have been sold. (That's an estimation by Joe Gellers series number collection) As the 3458A is a niche product with homeopathic series volume, the development, verification/validation, special reliability engineering, selection and burn-in measures, QA costs had to be paid per unit in the beginning. To my opinion, especially the 3458A was designed mainly for military requirements (Tamb 55°C). The military was willing to pay a premium (HP = High Price) at that time. So HP was able to realize that price. All that development budget is long paid, and after end of the Cold War, the military does not order so many devices anymore, what caused the problems of the TM business (finally = Keysight, urgh!). But as that market is tight, competitors are few, so the price is not going down, instead it's increasing over the years, from $5900 to around $8500. It would be interesting to calcualte the BOM of the 3458A. As they use many custom specific components, it should be relatively expensive. There is no parameter in the HP3458A specifications, that the device has to be powered constantly to meet the specs. Those very high 8ppm/yr. drift might apply only during continuous operation. During power down, the LTZ should not drift at all, as the ageing mechanism is driven by temperature. But there might be (there are indeed) considerable hysteresis effects. I have set the temperature of my HP3458A to ~ 60°C, I shut it down after usage, and the periodical comparison to 3 other references shows a drift of less than 1ppm/year. Frank ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive
Of course you would need to calibrate a JJ standard. If you recall, the JJ works by being cooled to some LN2 like temperature, and then being fed with a microwave frequency that is part of the standard's definition. If the temperature is wrong, or the frequency is wrong, or ..., the voltage will be wrong. The whole point behind the JJ is that it connects the standard voltage to the standard frequency/time ... the most accurately specified of the known standards. Cs standards, even though they are primary standards, are also in need of calibration because the frequency they create is dependent on the magnetic field surrounding the tube, and the construction of the tube. All Josephson Junction V standards produce a slightly different voltage, and all Cs standards produce a slightly different frequency. -Chuck Harris Joe Hobart wrote: Bill, Would a Josephson Junction standard need to be calibrated? Adjusted and maybe compared, yes, but you should not need to calibrate a primary standard? Years ago we had HP Cesium Frequency Standards at work. There were primary standards and good to 4E-12 with no additional calibration. Joe ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive
A Josephson Junction is not a Cesium Standard. It is not quite to the Plug and Play level. And takes a few racks worth of space. Operation and Maintenance is more difficult then most calibrations. But big advances are being made. At some point in the not to distant future I foresee JJ arrays being configured as not just a references, but full function calibrators with direct quantum synthesis of any DC, AC, Ohms, and Current. Sam Benz has lead much of this research. http://www.nist.gov/pml/div686/devices/voltage.cfm I am amazed that greater advances have not been made in zeners references or more specifically their packaging Thomas Knox Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 17:44:43 -0700 From: n...@npgcable.com To: tmiller11...@verizon.net; volt-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive Bill, Would a Josephson Junction standard need to be calibrated? Adjusted and maybe compared, yes, but you should not need to calibrate a primary standard? Years ago we had HP Cesium Frequency Standards at work. There were primary standards and good to 4E-12 with no additional calibration. Joe On 1/18/2014 3:37 PM, Tom Miller wrote: Can you imagine what it would cost to get that calibrated? Tom - Original Message - From: Bill Gold wpgold3...@att.net To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2014 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive In fact if you look at a 1982 HP catalog you will see that the 3456A was selling for around $3,700 and given inflation the 3458A is still a pretty good bargain when it was introduced in 1989. In 1989 the 3456A was selling for $4,600 while the 3458A was selling for $5,900. I wonder if there will ever be a 3459A 9.5 digit meter? With a super miniture Josehpson Junction for a reference? Bill - Original Message - From: Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2014 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive Actually in spite of it's high price I feel the 3458A represents a bargain. When it was introduced in 1989 it was $5900. A price it held for decades. Although designed in then 80's it's accuracy is still unsurpassed. The 8846A is much less expensive because it has only about a quarter the parts. With few that are hand selected and/or aged. And all though both meter have well executed designs the result is the 3458A has about a magnitude greater accuracy. And anyone in Metrology can attest to the fact that the cost of accuracy is exponential. But the thought I wanted to contribute to the dialog is the real value of the 3458A is the body of knowledge built around the thousands of 358A's some running continuously for nearly three decades. The characteristics of the 3458A are perhaps the best documented of any electronic instrument ever made. That is priceless. When comparing that body of knowledge to individual units I have found every 3458A is a little different and seem to each have their own personality. In a side note, recently I owned what appeared to be the original 3458A. I cannot remember the serial number, but it had the numbered stickers identifying the boards that can be seen in the original service manual. And it was still working flawlessly. Thomas Knox Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 17:41:26 +0100 From: frank.stellm...@freenet.de To: volt-nuts@febo.com Subject: [volt-nuts] What made a HP3458A so expensive Well, the 3458A now is in production for about 25 years , and only around 50k units have been sold. (That's an estimation by Joe Gellers series number collection) As the 3458A is a niche product with homeopathic series volume, the development, verification/validation, special reliability engineering, selection and burn-in measures, QA costs had to be paid per unit in the beginning. To my opinion, especially the 3458A was designed mainly for military requirements (Tamb 55°C). The military was willing to pay a premium (HP = High Price) at that time. So HP was able to realize that price. All that development budget is long paid, and after end of the Cold War, the military does not order so many devices anymore, what caused the problems of the TM business (finally = Keysight, urgh!). But as that market is tight, competitors are few, so the price is not going down, instead it's increasing over the years, from $5900 to around $8500. It would be interesting to calcualte the BOM of the 3458A. As they use many custom specific components, it should be relatively expensive. There is no parameter in the HP3458A specifications, that the device has to be powered constantly to meet the specs. Those very high 8ppm/yr. drift might apply only during continuous
