Re: [volt-nuts] AC calibration

2014-08-27 Thread acbern
what nist means is that a precision meter is not considered a standard. you 
always measure against a true standard (732a, esi sr104...). nist does not mean 
that as part of doing equipment calibration a 3458a cannot be used as aid. also 
keep in mind nist has a different approach than a cal lab, for obvious reasons. 
a cal lab would do a transfer measurement using a 3458a and a voltage/current 
source, sure.

there are precision ratio transformers available from various vendors, they can 
be used for low frequency precision calibrations, up to 20khz only (if anybodys 
knows one specified above 20khz I am interested to hear). so they will help you 
only partially in calibrating even a low precision 5101.


 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. August 2014 um 07:08 Uhr
 Von: pa4...@gmail.com
 An: volt-nuts volt-nuts@febo.com
 Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] AC calibration

 Thanks, I did not new NIST has so much interesting information on their site. 
 
 
 
 
 I read the following on their site :
 
 multirange instruments with up to eight decimal digits of adjustability, are 
 not considered by NIST to be standards 
 
 
 
 
 Does that mean a HP3458 ? Fluke in the Netherlands used a HP-3458 and a 732 
 to calibrate the Fluke 5101 that  I'm working on at this moment (it failed 
 calibration due to some hardware faults) 
 
 
 
 
 Everybody thanks for the information. Turns out, a friend has a GR 1455AH for 
 me, that is some kind a AC KV divider. 
 
 I will test if the output of my HP 3400 is usable to connect a DMM. I have 
 one I restored a few years ago. Besides that someone mentioned to look at the 
 LT-1088.  
 
 
 But that has to wait until I have some more time. I only repaired 
 calibration, percission gear and RF stuff  for my hobby, but, not planned, I 
 started to do this on a commercial base too. See my (non commercial) site 
 about my collection calibration and other gear and projects  www.pa4tim.nl .
 
 Today the 5101 goes back to the custommer but he brings 2 other instruments 
 in need of some TLC and a precheck before they are shipped to Fluke for 
 calibration.  And yesterday an other company asked if I want/can repair a GM 
 safety tester (a sort of megger on steroids) that died during calibration.  
 
 
 Fred
 

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Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

2014-08-27 Thread Randy Evans
I am doing multiple 100 measurements simply to characterize the stability
of the 3458A and 732A units I just bought.  After about 10 measurement sets
over 2 days I am seeing a variance of about .5 uV for the 10V output, or
0.05 ppm.  However, the mean varies over a range of 10 uV, or 1 ppm.  Does
that sound reasonable/

Randy


On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 5:41 PM, acb...@gmx.de wrote:

 hi randy,

 just for curiosity, why doing 100 measurements at nplc 1000. is this to
 sample a changing value?
 when i am doing 10 measurements from a stable signal at nplc 100 (only
 there many subsequent measuremnts with statistics make sense) I am already
 getting a stanard deviation below 0.1ppm.
 in a 30 minute test cycle, i would also be concerned about drifts (acal)
 unless the amb. temperature is really very stable (half a degree already
 adds about 0.25ppm at 10v)

 thanks




  Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. August 2014 um 04:23 Uhr
  Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
  An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
  Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
 
  Is there any way to tell when the function key routine is complete?  In
 the
  case of taking multiple readings using the DEFKEY and MATH function, I
  don't see any indication when the routine is complete.  In one particular
  case, I am taking a 100 readings with NLPC set for 1000 so its a long
 while
  before it's complete, but i have to guess when it's done.
 
  Thanks,
 
  Randy
 
 
  On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   Bill,
  
   I am trying to figure out the MATH function without much success.  I
 input
   the sequence you said (I looked up the instructions to understand what
 you
   did - seems logical), BLUE DEFKEY BLUE F1 MATH 14;NRDGS 40;TRIG
 4;TRIG; and
   it shows up on the display when I input BLUE F1.  I hit ENTER and it
 takes
   the 40 measurements and the MATH symbol shows on the display during the
   measurements.  After the SMPL symbol no longer blinks I hit MATH 2 and
 I
   get a MATH ERR symbol on the display.  I tried it a couple of times
 and the
   same result so I am doing something wrong.  Is there a better source
 for
   explaining how to do front panel masurements than the User Guide, which
   seems oriented at programming automatic rather than manual
 measurements.
  
   Randy
  
  
  
   On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Bill Gold wpgold3...@att.net wrote:
  
   Randy:
  
   The MATH function is accessible from the keypad.  I don't have an
 IEEE
   interface right now that works.  You can also program the numeric
 keypad
   keys to have preprogrammed functions.  DEFKEY
  
   I have made my own low thermal measurement leads from Pomona
 #4892
   banana plugs and Belden #9272 wire.  Why 9272, because it was handy
 at the
   time.  It is tin plated copper, shielded twisted pair 20 ga.  I have
 plans
   to do custom cables with 16 ga. bare copper wire that I will twist and
   then
   put a braided shield over it.  I simply cannot find what I want so I
 will
   build my own cable.  I have done something like this before and it
 worked
   fine.  When I get a round toit.
  
   I have 6 ea. Pomona 1756-48 spade lug low thermal leads that I
 have
   used
   in the past to verify my homemade low thermal leads as described
 above.
   Frankly I cannot see any difference between using the 1756 cables and
 my
   homemade cables once I give them a few minutes for the thermals to go
   away.
   As far as I can tell and measure the differences, if any, are below
 0.1
   ppm
   at 10 volts.
  
   Since the 10 volt, 1.0 volt and 1.018 volt outputs on the 732A
 are all
   adjustable you may be seeing a misadjusted 1 volt from the 732A.  As
 far
   as
   the instability of the readings it is hard to determine which is
 causing
   the
   problem.  I have programed (DEFKEY) a numeric keypad key #1 with the
   following code.  MATH 14;NRDGS 40;TRIG 4;TRIG ;   So what this does
 is
   set
   the MATH to Statistics (store high reading/low reading/ and mean of
 the
   readings) in the registers, the number of readings to 40, the
 trigger to
   hold (which keeps the meter from triggering until I press ENTER
 and
   then
   trigger the sequence of 40 readings when I push the ENTER button.
 You
   can
   do all of this manually from the keypads but since I use this
 sequence a
   lot
   I have preprogrammed it.  This is after I set digits to 8 and PLC to
   100.
   Once those 40 readings are finished then you can access the various
 MATH
   statistic registers, using the menu, by entering MATH and then a 2
 for
   low, a 4 for mean, and 13 for high.  Of course you could do all of
 this
   through the IEEE also.  The 3458A has a very rich set of measurement
   commands.  I am still learning all of them.  It depends upon what I am
   trying to accomplish.
  
   Since the 1.018 and 1.0 volt outputs are passive and derived from
   resistive dividers from the 10 

Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

2014-08-27 Thread Randy Evans
I forgot to mention that I reduced the number of measurements to 100 per
set since I wasn't seeing much difference in the variance between 100 and
1000 measurements and the 1000 measurement per set takes too long.

Randy


On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 5:13 AM, Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
wrote:

 I am doing multiple 100 measurements simply to characterize the stability
 of the 3458A and 732A units I just bought.  After about 10 measurement sets
 over 2 days I am seeing a variance of about .5 uV for the 10V output, or
 0.05 ppm.  However, the mean varies over a range of 10 uV, or 1 ppm.  Does
 that sound reasonable/

 Randy


 On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 5:41 PM, acb...@gmx.de wrote:

 hi randy,

 just for curiosity, why doing 100 measurements at nplc 1000. is this to
 sample a changing value?
 when i am doing 10 measurements from a stable signal at nplc 100 (only
 there many subsequent measuremnts with statistics make sense) I am already
 getting a stanard deviation below 0.1ppm.
 in a 30 minute test cycle, i would also be concerned about drifts (acal)
 unless the amb. temperature is really very stable (half a degree already
 adds about 0.25ppm at 10v)

 thanks




  Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. August 2014 um 04:23 Uhr
  Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
  An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
  Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
 
  Is there any way to tell when the function key routine is complete?  In
 the
  case of taking multiple readings using the DEFKEY and MATH function, I
  don't see any indication when the routine is complete.  In one
 particular
  case, I am taking a 100 readings with NLPC set for 1000 so its a long
 while
  before it's complete, but i have to guess when it's done.
 
  Thanks,
 
  Randy
 
 
  On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   Bill,
  
   I am trying to figure out the MATH function without much success.  I
 input
   the sequence you said (I looked up the instructions to understand
 what you
   did - seems logical), BLUE DEFKEY BLUE F1 MATH 14;NRDGS 40;TRIG
 4;TRIG; and
   it shows up on the display when I input BLUE F1.  I hit ENTER and it
 takes
   the 40 measurements and the MATH symbol shows on the display during
 the
   measurements.  After the SMPL symbol no longer blinks I hit MATH 2
 and I
   get a MATH ERR symbol on the display.  I tried it a couple of times
 and the
   same result so I am doing something wrong.  Is there a better source
 for
   explaining how to do front panel masurements than the User Guide,
 which
   seems oriented at programming automatic rather than manual
 measurements.
  
   Randy
  
  
  
   On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Bill Gold wpgold3...@att.net
 wrote:
  
   Randy:
  
   The MATH function is accessible from the keypad.  I don't have
 an IEEE
   interface right now that works.  You can also program the numeric
 keypad
   keys to have preprogrammed functions.  DEFKEY
  
   I have made my own low thermal measurement leads from Pomona
 #4892
   banana plugs and Belden #9272 wire.  Why 9272, because it was handy
 at the
   time.  It is tin plated copper, shielded twisted pair 20 ga.  I have
 plans
   to do custom cables with 16 ga. bare copper wire that I will twist
 and
   then
   put a braided shield over it.  I simply cannot find what I want so I
 will
   build my own cable.  I have done something like this before and it
 worked
   fine.  When I get a round toit.
  
   I have 6 ea. Pomona 1756-48 spade lug low thermal leads that I
 have
   used
   in the past to verify my homemade low thermal leads as described
 above.
   Frankly I cannot see any difference between using the 1756 cables
 and my
   homemade cables once I give them a few minutes for the thermals to go
   away.
   As far as I can tell and measure the differences, if any, are below
 0.1
   ppm
   at 10 volts.
  
   Since the 10 volt, 1.0 volt and 1.018 volt outputs on the 732A
 are all
   adjustable you may be seeing a misadjusted 1 volt from the 732A.  As
 far
   as
   the instability of the readings it is hard to determine which is
 causing
   the
   problem.  I have programed (DEFKEY) a numeric keypad key #1 with the
   following code.  MATH 14;NRDGS 40;TRIG 4;TRIG ;   So what this
 does is
   set
   the MATH to Statistics (store high reading/low reading/ and mean
 of the
   readings) in the registers, the number of readings to 40, the
 trigger to
   hold (which keeps the meter from triggering until I press ENTER
 and
   then
   trigger the sequence of 40 readings when I push the ENTER button.
 You
   can
   do all of this manually from the keypads but since I use this
 sequence a
   lot
   I have preprogrammed it.  This is after I set digits to 8 and PLC
 to
   100.
   Once those 40 readings are finished then you can access the various
 MATH
   statistic registers, using the menu, by entering MATH and then a 2
 for
   low, a 4 for mean, and 13 for high.  Of 

Re: [volt-nuts] AC calibration

2014-08-27 Thread Steve - Home
Fred,

The 3458A is 8.5 digits, which puts it into the standards category. They are 
used as lab standards in many, many labs. 

73,

Steve
WB0DBS



 On Aug 27, 2014, at 12:08 AM, pa4...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Thanks, I did not new NIST has so much interesting information on their site. 
 
 
 
 
 I read the following on their site :
 
 multirange instruments with up to eight decimal digits of adjustability, are 
 not considered by NIST to be standards 
 
 
 
 
 Does that mean a HP3458 ? Fluke in the Netherlands used a HP-3458 and a 732 
 to calibrate the Fluke 5101 that  I'm working on at this moment (it failed 
 calibration due to some hardware faults) 
 
 
 
 
 Everybody thanks for the information. Turns out, a friend has a GR 1455AH for 
 me, that is some kind a AC KV divider. 
 
 I will test if the output of my HP 3400 is usable to connect a DMM. I have 
 one I restored a few years ago. Besides that someone mentioned to look at the 
 LT-1088.  
 
 
 But that has to wait until I have some more time. I only repaired 
 calibration, percission gear and RF stuff  for my hobby, but, not planned, I 
 started to do this on a commercial base too. See my (non commercial) site 
 about my collection calibration and other gear and projects  www.pa4tim.nl .
 
 Today the 5101 goes back to the custommer but he brings 2 other instruments 
 in need of some TLC and a precheck before they are shipped to Fluke for 
 calibration.  And yesterday an other company asked if I want/can repair a GM 
 safety tester (a sort of megger on steroids) that died during calibration.  
 
 
 Fred
 
 
 
 Verzonden met Windows Mail
 
 
 
 
 
 Van: acb...@gmx.de
 Verzonden: ‎dinsdag‎ ‎26‎ ‎augustus‎ ‎2014 ‎18‎:‎56
 Aan: volt-nuts
 
 
 
 
 
 Dave,
 
 the title is: 
 Thermal Voltage Converters and Comparator for Very Accurate AC Voltage 
 Measurements
 by E.S.Williams.
 
 Adrian
 
 
 Gesendet: Montag, 25. August 2014 um 19:32 Uhr
 Von: Dave M dgmin...@mediacombb.net
 An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
 Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] AC calibration
 
 Adrian,
 Do you have a link or title for the NIST paper that you mentioned?
 
 Dave M
 
 
 acb...@gmx.de wrote:
 fred,
 generally you raise a good point, I had the same issue of calibrating
 an ac voltage to a high level of accuracy. you need this e.g. to
 validate the self.cal of a 3458a or other precison stuff like the
 8506a0.   
 
 what i would recommend to do if you want to keep costs down is:
 in a nutshell, get a thermal converter in the lowest range you need
 and a second one on range above. build a set of resistor range
 extenders (rf type with appropriate connectors and housings) to
 expand the range to where you need to be max. get one of the thermal
 converter calibrated (the higher one usually, and you need to havr 
 good cal lab, should be 10ppm accuracy) and use it to calibrate the
 rest. generally, up to 20khz, the accuracy is some 20 ppm anyway for
 thermal converters! at higher frequencies, due to reflections and
 stray capacitance/inductance influences, the accuracy decreases. the
 resistor range extenders though, if build up correctly, only have a
 few ppm impact (there is a paper from nist on that, but this is only
 typical). you can calibrate all converters to the one you got
 externally calibrated. do some research in the web, when you do the
 calibration, you need to determine the so-called constant N. then do
 an ac, dc+, ac, dc-, ac measurement between the the two and establish
 the deviation, also establish the error propagation. the end result
 will be a set of highly precise (low inaccuracies9 thermal converters
 good enough to calibrate a 3458a an better devices. if you want to
 spend the money, you could also buy a set of converters/range
 resistors (with/without a 540), that typically is a few k altogether,
 while a single device sometimes is available for below 100 bucks. you
 need to have a stable 7.5 digit nanovoltmeter though for the
 measurements of the tvcs (34420a or 2182 typically ) and precision
 (stable) dc and ac sources. but in the end, all you need is a single
 calibrated thermal converter.
 
 adrian
 
 
 
 Gesendet: Montag, 25. August 2014 um 18:38 Uhr
 Von: Dave M dgmin...@mediacombb.net
 An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
 Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] AC calibration
 
 Well, you sort of answered your own question.  The equipment is
 called a Thermal Transfer Standard, but instead of thermistors, it
 uses a thermocouple.  Look at the manual for the Fluke 540B
 (http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/fluke/540b/) and you'll see how
 it's done. Basically, the AC source is input into the transfer
 standard, and the standard's internal reference voltage is adjusted
 for a null on the galvanometer.  Leaving the reference voltage
 setting alone, a DC voltage is input into the unit, and the DC
 source is adjusted for a null on the galvanometer.  At that point,
 the AC voltage source is equal to 

Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

2014-08-27 Thread acbern
well, what you do is to measure the stability of the 3458a. 1ppm drift though 
sounds much as overall short term average variation if your temperature is 
stable and your 3458a is always on. probably the temp is not stable, and that 
is what you see, amongst potentially some other smaller drifts like emf. before 
every cycle you should do an acal dcv, if you still see 10uv +/- drifts that 
then seems too much. (one thing I need to add is that one of my 3458a, not yet 
modified to have lower reference temperature, has drifts when switched on and 
off. that is not so much the case with modified reference. but my assumption re 
the above is that your meter is always on, as I said) 
732a references et al do have small short term drifts, you can determine them 
with a josephson element (these guys told me), but the 732a is certainly very 
stable short term compared to a 3458a. my 732a e.g. has a drift of 0.2ppm per 
year.


 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. August 2014 um 14:36 Uhr
 Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
 An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
 Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

 I forgot to mention that I reduced the number of measurements to 100 per
 set since I wasn't seeing much difference in the variance between 100 and
 1000 measurements and the 1000 measurement per set takes too long.
 
 Randy
 
 
 On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 5:13 AM, Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  I am doing multiple 100 measurements simply to characterize the stability
  of the 3458A and 732A units I just bought.  After about 10 measurement sets
  over 2 days I am seeing a variance of about .5 uV for the 10V output, or
  0.05 ppm.  However, the mean varies over a range of 10 uV, or 1 ppm.  Does
  that sound reasonable/
 
  Randy
 
 
  On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 5:41 PM, acb...@gmx.de wrote:
 
  hi randy,
 
  just for curiosity, why doing 100 measurements at nplc 1000. is this to
  sample a changing value?
  when i am doing 10 measurements from a stable signal at nplc 100 (only
  there many subsequent measuremnts with statistics make sense) I am already
  getting a stanard deviation below 0.1ppm.
  in a 30 minute test cycle, i would also be concerned about drifts (acal)
  unless the amb. temperature is really very stable (half a degree already
  adds about 0.25ppm at 10v)
 
  thanks
 
 
 
 
   Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. August 2014 um 04:23 Uhr
   Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
   An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
   Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
  
   Is there any way to tell when the function key routine is complete?  In
  the
   case of taking multiple readings using the DEFKEY and MATH function, I
   don't see any indication when the routine is complete.  In one
  particular
   case, I am taking a 100 readings with NLPC set for 1000 so its a long
  while
   before it's complete, but i have to guess when it's done.
  
   Thanks,
  
   Randy
  
  
   On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
Bill,
   
I am trying to figure out the MATH function without much success.  I
  input
the sequence you said (I looked up the instructions to understand
  what you
did - seems logical), BLUE DEFKEY BLUE F1 MATH 14;NRDGS 40;TRIG
  4;TRIG; and
it shows up on the display when I input BLUE F1.  I hit ENTER and it
  takes
the 40 measurements and the MATH symbol shows on the display during
  the
measurements.  After the SMPL symbol no longer blinks I hit MATH 2
  and I
get a MATH ERR symbol on the display.  I tried it a couple of times
  and the
same result so I am doing something wrong.  Is there a better source
  for
explaining how to do front panel masurements than the User Guide,
  which
seems oriented at programming automatic rather than manual
  measurements.
   
Randy
   
   
   
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Bill Gold wpgold3...@att.net
  wrote:
   
Randy:
   
The MATH function is accessible from the keypad.  I don't have
  an IEEE
interface right now that works.  You can also program the numeric
  keypad
keys to have preprogrammed functions.  DEFKEY
   
I have made my own low thermal measurement leads from Pomona
  #4892
banana plugs and Belden #9272 wire.  Why 9272, because it was handy
  at the
time.  It is tin plated copper, shielded twisted pair 20 ga.  I have
  plans
to do custom cables with 16 ga. bare copper wire that I will twist
  and
then
put a braided shield over it.  I simply cannot find what I want so I
  will
build my own cable.  I have done something like this before and it
  worked
fine.  When I get a round toit.
   
I have 6 ea. Pomona 1756-48 spade lug low thermal leads that I
  have
used
in the past to verify my homemade low thermal leads as described
  above.
Frankly I cannot see any difference between using the 1756 cables
  and 

Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

2014-08-27 Thread Bill Gold
Randy:

Something I had never tried to measure.  As I have found out in the past
there is a lot of overhead going on in the meter during and after a
measurement.

In thinking about this I turned OFF the autozero AZERO and the time
for each SMPL was cut in half to around the estimated 16.66 seconds for
1000 PLC.  So it becomes obvious that the meter makes an autozero
measurement for 1000 PLC and then the actual measurement for 1000 PLC which
explains the 33 seconds.  Makes sense.  This is probably why the AZERO menu
gives you ON, OFF and ONCE.  For short measurement sequences you just
autozero ONCE at the start.

Thanks for the observation, this helps me.  Everyday I learn something
new.

Bill

Thanks for the information
- Original Message - 
From: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received


 Bill,

 I measured the time between SMPL symbols with NPLC set to 1000 and it is
 approximately 33 seconds. It takes an hour to complete 100 readings.

 Randy


 On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 10:01 PM, Bill Gold wpgold3...@att.net wrote:

  Not that I know of.  Just wait and when you don't see a SMPL on the
  display it is done.  But then with 1000 PLC that is around 16.66 seconds
  per
  reading times 100 readings is somewhere around 28 minutes and there is
  probably some overhead time so around 30 minutes.  Not from the front
panel
  at any rate.
 
  Bill
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
  To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
  Sent: Monday, August 25, 2014 9:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
 
 
   Is there any way to tell when the function key routine is complete?
In
  the
   case of taking multiple readings using the DEFKEY and MATH function, I
   don't see any indication when the routine is complete.  In one
particular
   case, I am taking a 100 readings with NLPC set for 1000 so its a long
  while
   before it's complete, but i have to guess when it's done.
  
   Thanks,
  
   Randy
  
  
   On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Randy Evans
randyevans2...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
Bill,
   
I am trying to figure out the MATH function without much success.  I
  input
the sequence you said (I looked up the instructions to understand
what
  you
did - seems logical), BLUE DEFKEY BLUE F1 MATH 14;NRDGS 40;TRIG
4;TRIG;
  and
it shows up on the display when I input BLUE F1.  I hit ENTER and it
  takes
the 40 measurements and the MATH symbol shows on the display during
the
measurements.  After the SMPL symbol no longer blinks I hit MATH 2
and
  I
get a MATH ERR symbol on the display.  I tried it a couple of times
and
  the
same result so I am doing something wrong.  Is there a better source
  for
explaining how to do front panel masurements than the User Guide,
which
seems oriented at programming automatic rather than manual
  measurements.
   
Randy
   
   
   
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Bill Gold wpgold3...@att.net
wrote:
   
Randy:
   
The MATH function is accessible from the keypad.  I don't have
an
  IEEE
interface right now that works.  You can also program the numeric
  keypad
keys to have preprogrammed functions.  DEFKEY
   
I have made my own low thermal measurement leads from Pomona
  #4892
banana plugs and Belden #9272 wire.  Why 9272, because it was handy
at
  the
time.  It is tin plated copper, shielded twisted pair 20 ga.  I
have
  plans
to do custom cables with 16 ga. bare copper wire that I will twist
and
then
put a braided shield over it.  I simply cannot find what I want so
I
  will
build my own cable.  I have done something like this before and it
  worked
fine.  When I get a round toit.
   
I have 6 ea. Pomona 1756-48 spade lug low thermal leads that I
  have
used
in the past to verify my homemade low thermal leads as described
  above.
Frankly I cannot see any difference between using the 1756 cables
and
  my
homemade cables once I give them a few minutes for the thermals to
go
away.
As far as I can tell and measure the differences, if any, are below
  0.1
ppm
at 10 volts.
   
Since the 10 volt, 1.0 volt and 1.018 volt outputs on the 732A
are
  all
adjustable you may be seeing a misadjusted 1 volt from the 732A.
As
  far
as
the instability of the readings it is hard to determine which is
  causing
the
problem.  I have programed (DEFKEY) a numeric keypad key #1 with
the
following code.  MATH 14;NRDGS 40;TRIG 4;TRIG ;   So what this
does
  is
set
the MATH to Statistics (store high reading/low reading/ and mean
of
  the
readings) in the registers, the number of readings to 40, the
  trigger
  to
hold (which keeps the meter from triggering until I 

Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

2014-08-27 Thread Don@True-Cal
I have included a link to an ~30-hour measurement run that I consistently do 
that should give you some idea of expected measurement drift over time. 
Virtually all of the measurement drift is due to the 3458A internal temperature 
differences around the 7V reference caused by ambient temperature change. The 
drift associated with the 732A is probably about 2-magnitudes less at this 
ambient temp drift. In my situation, the inferred ambient temperature is 
cycling with the home air-conditioning. Note the initial calibration 
temperatures as well as the ACal temperatures and where the 3458A is measuring 
exactly 10V relative to those temperatures. My primary 732A has been powered 
without loss for 4 years and 5 years before that. The 3458A is Agilent 
(Loveland) Cal'ed yearly and is powered 24-7-365 except for the occasional 
mains power loss. The graphical measurements is using a homegrown Agilent VEE 
program. It is very helpful if not essential to get an HPIB interface setup so 
you can do long term graphical analysis. 

The other link was done in winter time when the lab a few degrees cooler.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8je482i3r0belqn/732A%20gold%20%26%203458A%20gold%2032-hour%20Ref%20Test%208-21-2014.pdf?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xv3l9py7tx6hyh7/HP%20732A%20gold%20%26%203458A%20gold%207-day%2010.0v%20Ref%20Test.pdf?dl=0

I hope these Dropbox links work internationally - I'm new to using this sharing 
method.

Don Johnson

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of acb...@gmx.de
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 8:42 AM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

well, what you do is to measure the stability of the 3458a. 1ppm drift though 
sounds much as overall short term average variation if your temperature is 
stable and your 3458a is always on. probably the temp is not stable, and that 
is what you see, amongst potentially some other smaller drifts like emf. before 
every cycle you should do an acal dcv, if you still see 10uv +/- drifts that 
then seems too much. (one thing I need to add is that one of my 3458a, not yet 
modified to have lower reference temperature, has drifts when switched on and 
off. that is not so much the case with modified reference. but my assumption re 
the above is that your meter is always on, as I said) 732a references et al do 
have small short term drifts, you can determine them with a josephson element 
(these guys told me), but the 732a is certainly very stable short term compared 
to a 3458a. my 732a e.g. has a drift of 0.2ppm per year.


 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. August 2014 um 14:36 Uhr
 Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
 An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
 Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

 I forgot to mention that I reduced the number of measurements to 100 per
 set since I wasn't seeing much difference in the variance between 100 and
 1000 measurements and the 1000 measurement per set takes too long.
 
 Randy
 
 
 On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 5:13 AM, Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  I am doing multiple 100 measurements simply to characterize the stability
  of the 3458A and 732A units I just bought.  After about 10 measurement sets
  over 2 days I am seeing a variance of about .5 uV for the 10V output, or
  0.05 ppm.  However, the mean varies over a range of 10 uV, or 1 ppm.  Does
  that sound reasonable/
 
  Randy
 
 
  On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 5:41 PM, acb...@gmx.de wrote:
 
  hi randy,
 
  just for curiosity, why doing 100 measurements at nplc 1000. is this to
  sample a changing value?
  when i am doing 10 measurements from a stable signal at nplc 100 (only
  there many subsequent measuremnts with statistics make sense) I am already
  getting a stanard deviation below 0.1ppm.
  in a 30 minute test cycle, i would also be concerned about drifts (acal)
  unless the amb. temperature is really very stable (half a degree already
  adds about 0.25ppm at 10v)
 
  thanks
 
 
 
 
   Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. August 2014 um 04:23 Uhr
   Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
   An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
   Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
  
   Is there any way to tell when the function key routine is complete?  In
  the
   case of taking multiple readings using the DEFKEY and MATH function, I
   don't see any indication when the routine is complete.  In one
  particular
   case, I am taking a 100 readings with NLPC set for 1000 so its a long
  while
   before it's complete, but i have to guess when it's done.
  
   Thanks,
  
   Randy
  
  
   On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
Bill,
   
I am trying to figure out the MATH function without much success.  I
  input
the sequence you said (I looked up the instructions to understand
  what you
did - seems logical), BLUE DEFKEY 

Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

2014-08-27 Thread Randy Evans
The HP3458A and the Fluke 732A are on continuously and I do an ACAL at
least every few hours, or when the room temperature changes by more than 1
degree C. The total range of measurements is 10uV so the drift is +/-5uV,
or 0.5 ppm.  The room temperature is not particularly stable and varies
over a 3C range.  The internal temp of the 3458 varies from 38.1 to 40.3
degrees C over the set of measurements.  The 732A thermistor resistance
measures from 3.6677 Kohms to  3.6686 Kohms.  I am using copper wires
between the 3458A and the 752A to minimize thermals.  At the moment I have
no way to tell which unit is drifting the most.

Randy


On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 6:41 AM, acb...@gmx.de wrote:

 well, what you do is to measure the stability of the 3458a. 1ppm drift
 though sounds much as overall short term average variation if your
 temperature is stable and your 3458a is always on. probably the temp is not
 stable, and that is what you see, amongst potentially some other smaller
 drifts like emf. before every cycle you should do an acal dcv, if you still
 see 10uv +/- drifts that then seems too much. (one thing I need to add is
 that one of my 3458a, not yet modified to have lower reference temperature,
 has drifts when switched on and off. that is not so much the case with
 modified reference. but my assumption re the above is that your meter is
 always on, as I said)
 732a references et al do have small short term drifts, you can determine
 them with a josephson element (these guys told me), but the 732a is
 certainly very stable short term compared to a 3458a. my 732a e.g. has a
 drift of 0.2ppm per year.


  Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. August 2014 um 14:36 Uhr
  Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
  An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
  Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
 
  I forgot to mention that I reduced the number of measurements to 100 per
  set since I wasn't seeing much difference in the variance between 100 and
  1000 measurements and the 1000 measurement per set takes too long.
 
  Randy
 
 
  On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 5:13 AM, Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   I am doing multiple 100 measurements simply to characterize the
 stability
   of the 3458A and 732A units I just bought.  After about 10 measurement
 sets
   over 2 days I am seeing a variance of about .5 uV for the 10V output,
 or
   0.05 ppm.  However, the mean varies over a range of 10 uV, or 1 ppm.
 Does
   that sound reasonable/
  
   Randy
  
  
   On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 5:41 PM, acb...@gmx.de wrote:
  
   hi randy,
  
   just for curiosity, why doing 100 measurements at nplc 1000. is this
 to
   sample a changing value?
   when i am doing 10 measurements from a stable signal at nplc 100 (only
   there many subsequent measuremnts with statistics make sense) I am
 already
   getting a stanard deviation below 0.1ppm.
   in a 30 minute test cycle, i would also be concerned about drifts
 (acal)
   unless the amb. temperature is really very stable (half a degree
 already
   adds about 0.25ppm at 10v)
  
   thanks
  
  
  
  
Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. August 2014 um 04:23 Uhr
Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
 
Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
   
Is there any way to tell when the function key routine is
 complete?  In
   the
case of taking multiple readings using the DEFKEY and MATH
 function, I
don't see any indication when the routine is complete.  In one
   particular
case, I am taking a 100 readings with NLPC set for 1000 so its a
 long
   while
before it's complete, but i have to guess when it's done.
   
Thanks,
   
Randy
   
   
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Randy Evans 
 randyevans2...@gmail.com
wrote:
   
 Bill,

 I am trying to figure out the MATH function without much
 success.  I
   input
 the sequence you said (I looked up the instructions to understand
   what you
 did - seems logical), BLUE DEFKEY BLUE F1 MATH 14;NRDGS 40;TRIG
   4;TRIG; and
 it shows up on the display when I input BLUE F1.  I hit ENTER and
 it
   takes
 the 40 measurements and the MATH symbol shows on the display
 during
   the
 measurements.  After the SMPL symbol no longer blinks I hit MATH 2
   and I
 get a MATH ERR symbol on the display.  I tried it a couple of
 times
   and the
 same result so I am doing something wrong.  Is there a better
 source
   for
 explaining how to do front panel masurements than the User Guide,
   which
 seems oriented at programming automatic rather than manual
   measurements.

 Randy



 On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 4:46 PM, Bill Gold wpgold3...@att.net
   wrote:

 Randy:

 The MATH function is accessible from the keypad.  I don't
 have
   an IEEE
 interface right now that works.  You can also program the numeric
   keypad
 

Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

2014-08-27 Thread Randy Evans
Don,

If I am reading your charts correctly, it looks like your system is cycling
over an 7 uV range over several days in summer, similar to what I am
seeing.  I don't have air conditioning (Northern California) so I do get
some pretty good temperature variations from day to night, but less inside
the house.

I need to figure out how to share files in Dropbox since I don't have my
own web site.  Good idea.

thanks,

Randy



On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 7:40 AM, Don@True-Cal truecalservi...@gmail.com
wrote:

 I have included a link to an ~30-hour measurement run that I consistently
 do that should give you some idea of expected measurement drift over time.
 Virtually all of the measurement drift is due to the 3458A internal
 temperature differences around the 7V reference caused by ambient
 temperature change. The drift associated with the 732A is probably about
 2-magnitudes less at this ambient temp drift. In my situation, the inferred
 ambient temperature is cycling with the home air-conditioning. Note the
 initial calibration temperatures as well as the ACal temperatures and where
 the 3458A is measuring exactly 10V relative to those temperatures. My
 primary 732A has been powered without loss for 4 years and 5 years before
 that. The 3458A is Agilent (Loveland) Cal'ed yearly and is powered 24-7-365
 except for the occasional mains power loss. The graphical measurements is
 using a homegrown Agilent VEE program. It is very helpful if not essential
 to get an HPIB interface setup so you can do long term graphical analysis.

 The other link was done in winter time when the lab a few degrees cooler.


 https://www.dropbox.com/s/8je482i3r0belqn/732A%20gold%20%26%203458A%20gold%2032-hour%20Ref%20Test%208-21-2014.pdf?dl=0


 https://www.dropbox.com/s/xv3l9py7tx6hyh7/HP%20732A%20gold%20%26%203458A%20gold%207-day%2010.0v%20Ref%20Test.pdf?dl=0

 I hope these Dropbox links work internationally - I'm new to using this
 sharing method.

 Don Johnson

 -Original Message-
 From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of
 acb...@gmx.de
 Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 8:42 AM
 To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
 Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

 well, what you do is to measure the stability of the 3458a. 1ppm drift
 though sounds much as overall short term average variation if your
 temperature is stable and your 3458a is always on. probably the temp is not
 stable, and that is what you see, amongst potentially some other smaller
 drifts like emf. before every cycle you should do an acal dcv, if you still
 see 10uv +/- drifts that then seems too much. (one thing I need to add is
 that one of my 3458a, not yet modified to have lower reference temperature,
 has drifts when switched on and off. that is not so much the case with
 modified reference. but my assumption re the above is that your meter is
 always on, as I said) 732a references et al do have small short term
 drifts, you can determine them with a josephson element (these guys told
 me), but the 732a is certainly very stable short term compared to a 3458a.
 my 732a e.g. has a drift of 0.2ppm per year.


  Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. August 2014 um 14:36 Uhr
  Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
  An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
  Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
 
  I forgot to mention that I reduced the number of measurements to 100 per
  set since I wasn't seeing much difference in the variance between 100 and
  1000 measurements and the 1000 measurement per set takes too long.
 
  Randy
 
 
  On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 5:13 AM, Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   I am doing multiple 100 measurements simply to characterize the
 stability
   of the 3458A and 732A units I just bought.  After about 10 measurement
 sets
   over 2 days I am seeing a variance of about .5 uV for the 10V output,
 or
   0.05 ppm.  However, the mean varies over a range of 10 uV, or 1 ppm.
 Does
   that sound reasonable/
  
   Randy
  
  
   On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 5:41 PM, acb...@gmx.de wrote:
  
   hi randy,
  
   just for curiosity, why doing 100 measurements at nplc 1000. is this
 to
   sample a changing value?
   when i am doing 10 measurements from a stable signal at nplc 100 (only
   there many subsequent measuremnts with statistics make sense) I am
 already
   getting a stanard deviation below 0.1ppm.
   in a 30 minute test cycle, i would also be concerned about drifts
 (acal)
   unless the amb. temperature is really very stable (half a degree
 already
   adds about 0.25ppm at 10v)
  
   thanks
  
  
  
  
Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. August 2014 um 04:23 Uhr
Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
 
Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
   
Is there any way to tell when the function key routine is
 complete?  In
   the
case of taking multiple readings using the 

Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

2014-08-27 Thread Don@True-Cal
Randy,

Sorry for the two graphs being at different scales so just be sure to readjust 
your reference. I like to think in PPM terms so the first graph is +/- 5 PPM 
for the whole gray plot area while the second is +/- 1 PPM. The most extreme 
outliers on the first graph is +0.3 to -0.5 PPM so that would be 10.0 uV. The 
winter graph is +0.1 to -0.9 PPM and would be 10.0 uV. All referenced around 
10.0 V.

Don

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Randy Evans
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 10:50 AM
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

Don,

If I am reading your charts correctly, it looks like your system is cycling 
over an 7 uV range over several days in summer, similar to what I am seeing.  I 
don't have air conditioning (Northern California) so I do get some pretty good 
temperature variations from day to night, but less inside the house.

I need to figure out how to share files in Dropbox since I don't have my own 
web site.  Good idea.

thanks,

Randy



On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 7:40 AM, Don@True-Cal truecalservi...@gmail.com
wrote:

 I have included a link to an ~30-hour measurement run that I 
 consistently do that should give you some idea of expected measurement drift 
 over time.
 Virtually all of the measurement drift is due to the 3458A internal 
 temperature differences around the 7V reference caused by ambient 
 temperature change. The drift associated with the 732A is probably 
 about 2-magnitudes less at this ambient temp drift. In my situation, 
 the inferred ambient temperature is cycling with the home 
 air-conditioning. Note the initial calibration temperatures as well as 
 the ACal temperatures and where the 3458A is measuring exactly 10V 
 relative to those temperatures. My primary 732A has been powered 
 without loss for 4 years and 5 years before that. The 3458A is 
 Agilent (Loveland) Cal'ed yearly and is powered 24-7-365 except for 
 the occasional mains power loss. The graphical measurements is using a 
 homegrown Agilent VEE program. It is very helpful if not essential to get an 
 HPIB interface setup so you can do long term graphical analysis.

 The other link was done in winter time when the lab a few degrees cooler.


 https://www.dropbox.com/s/8je482i3r0belqn/732A%20gold%20%26%203458A%20
 gold%2032-hour%20Ref%20Test%208-21-2014.pdf?dl=0


 https://www.dropbox.com/s/xv3l9py7tx6hyh7/HP%20732A%20gold%20%26%20345
 8A%20gold%207-day%2010.0v%20Ref%20Test.pdf?dl=0

 I hope these Dropbox links work internationally - I'm new to using 
 this sharing method.

 Don Johnson

 -Original Message-
 From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of 
 acb...@gmx.de
 Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 8:42 AM
 To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
 Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

 well, what you do is to measure the stability of the 3458a. 1ppm drift 
 though sounds much as overall short term average variation if your 
 temperature is stable and your 3458a is always on. probably the temp 
 is not stable, and that is what you see, amongst potentially some 
 other smaller drifts like emf. before every cycle you should do an 
 acal dcv, if you still see 10uv +/- drifts that then seems too much. 
 (one thing I need to add is that one of my 3458a, not yet modified to 
 have lower reference temperature, has drifts when switched on and off. 
 that is not so much the case with modified reference. but my 
 assumption re the above is that your meter is always on, as I said) 
 732a references et al do have small short term drifts, you can 
 determine them with a josephson element (these guys told me), but the 732a is 
 certainly very stable short term compared to a 3458a.
 my 732a e.g. has a drift of 0.2ppm per year.


  Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. August 2014 um 14:36 Uhr
  Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
  An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
  Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
 
  I forgot to mention that I reduced the number of measurements to 100 
  per set since I wasn't seeing much difference in the variance 
  between 100 and
  1000 measurements and the 1000 measurement per set takes too long.
 
  Randy
 
 
  On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 5:13 AM, Randy Evans 
  randyevans2...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   I am doing multiple 100 measurements simply to characterize the
 stability
   of the 3458A and 732A units I just bought.  After about 10 
   measurement
 sets
   over 2 days I am seeing a variance of about .5 uV for the 10V 
   output,
 or
   0.05 ppm.  However, the mean varies over a range of 10 uV, or 1 ppm.
 Does
   that sound reasonable/
  
   Randy
  
  
   On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 5:41 PM, acb...@gmx.de wrote:
  
   hi randy,
  
   just for curiosity, why doing 100 measurements at nplc 1000. is 
   this
 to
   sample a changing value?
   when i am doing 10 measurements from a stable 

Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

2014-08-27 Thread acbern
hi randy,
the specified drift of the 3458a over your 38.1 to 40.3 (about 1k) is 1ppm +/- 
allone in the 10v range. thats 10uv. in other ranges its worse.
unless your 732a is very bad (very unlikely), you measure mostly the 3458a 
temp. drift. 1000nplc and 100 readings average do not make sense in that 
context. if your goal is to be at 0.01ppm additional gain error by using the 
nplc1000, you need to be sure your temp related drift is even below that. 
0.01ppm of temp drift equates 20mk temp stability! you see that all this does 
not make much sense.


adrian


 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. August 2014 um 15:37 Uhr
 Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
 An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
 Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

 The HP3458A and the Fluke 732A are on continuously and I do an ACAL at
 least every few hours, or when the room temperature changes by more than 1
 degree C. The total range of measurements is 10uV so the drift is +/-5uV,
 or 0.5 ppm.  The room temperature is not particularly stable and varies
 over a 3C range.  The internal temp of the 3458 varies from 38.1 to 40.3
 degrees C over the set of measurements.  The 732A thermistor resistance
 measures from 3.6677 Kohms to  3.6686 Kohms.  I am using copper wires
 between the 3458A and the 752A to minimize thermals.  At the moment I have
 no way to tell which unit is drifting the most.
 
 Randy
 
 
 On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 6:41 AM, acb...@gmx.de wrote:
 
  well, what you do is to measure the stability of the 3458a. 1ppm drift
  though sounds much as overall short term average variation if your
  temperature is stable and your 3458a is always on. probably the temp is not
  stable, and that is what you see, amongst potentially some other smaller
  drifts like emf. before every cycle you should do an acal dcv, if you still
  see 10uv +/- drifts that then seems too much. (one thing I need to add is
  that one of my 3458a, not yet modified to have lower reference temperature,
  has drifts when switched on and off. that is not so much the case with
  modified reference. but my assumption re the above is that your meter is
  always on, as I said)
  732a references et al do have small short term drifts, you can determine
  them with a josephson element (these guys told me), but the 732a is
  certainly very stable short term compared to a 3458a. my 732a e.g. has a
  drift of 0.2ppm per year.
 
 
   Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. August 2014 um 14:36 Uhr
   Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
   An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
   Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
  
   I forgot to mention that I reduced the number of measurements to 100 per
   set since I wasn't seeing much difference in the variance between 100 and
   1000 measurements and the 1000 measurement per set takes too long.
  
   Randy
  
  
   On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 5:13 AM, Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
I am doing multiple 100 measurements simply to characterize the
  stability
of the 3458A and 732A units I just bought.  After about 10 measurement
  sets
over 2 days I am seeing a variance of about .5 uV for the 10V output,
  or
0.05 ppm.  However, the mean varies over a range of 10 uV, or 1 ppm.
  Does
that sound reasonable/
   
Randy
   
   
On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 5:41 PM, acb...@gmx.de wrote:
   
hi randy,
   
just for curiosity, why doing 100 measurements at nplc 1000. is this
  to
sample a changing value?
when i am doing 10 measurements from a stable signal at nplc 100 (only
there many subsequent measuremnts with statistics make sense) I am
  already
getting a stanard deviation below 0.1ppm.
in a 30 minute test cycle, i would also be concerned about drifts
  (acal)
unless the amb. temperature is really very stable (half a degree
  already
adds about 0.25ppm at 10v)
   
thanks
   
   
   
   
 Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. August 2014 um 04:23 Uhr
 Von: Randy Evans randyevans2...@gmail.com
 An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com
  
 Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

 Is there any way to tell when the function key routine is
  complete?  In
the
 case of taking multiple readings using the DEFKEY and MATH
  function, I
 don't see any indication when the routine is complete.  In one
particular
 case, I am taking a 100 readings with NLPC set for 1000 so its a
  long
while
 before it's complete, but i have to guess when it's done.

 Thanks,

 Randy


 On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Randy Evans 
  randyevans2...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Bill,
 
  I am trying to figure out the MATH function without much
  success.  I
input
  the sequence you said (I looked up the instructions to understand
what you
  did - seems logical), BLUE DEFKEY BLUE F1 MATH 14;NRDGS 

Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

2014-08-27 Thread M K

On 26/08/2014 16:05, Mike S wrote:
After some more research, I think I've answered some of my own 
questions -


Tellurium copper is used for binding posts, not because it has any 
special thermal or EMF mojo, but because it machines much better than 
pure copper. And, I suppose, because it sounds like it's extra special.


The Seebeck coefficients (uV/C, relative to Cu) of some relevant 
materials:

Cu 0.0
Ag .2
Au .5
Yellow brass 1.5
Phosphor bronze 2.0
63/37 solder 3.0
Sn 3.1
Stainless steel 3.1
Beryllium copper 5.0
Fe -12.3
Ni  22.3
Te -49.25

Based on the extreme Seebeck coefficient of pure tellurium vs. copper, 
I'd expect that there might be some coefficient between Cu and CuTe 
(0.5% Te), but I could find no reference. The relatively large number 
for CuBe is interesting, since that's a common material for banana 
plug springs, where one might expect the greatest temperature 
differential to occur in such a connection (between the thermal masses 
of the binding post/jack and the bulk of the banana plug). Heat has to 
flow a considerable distance through the springs, very much more than 
when it flows through a surface plating.


The Pomona (Fluke) EM5295-48-0# uses CuBe (gold plated) for the spring 
contacts. It seems there might be an improvement to be had by using 
the older style pin plugs, where a solid pin was partially sliced into 
4 sections which were then spread apart a bit to create tension. That 
could eliminate relatively large thermocouples at a thermal gradient, 
and might also be expected to have less thermal resistance, allowing 
the connection to settle quicker.


But maybe not - I'm still not clear on how plated conductors behave in 
this situation. For a high impedance voltage measurement where almost 
no current flows, the gold plating may carry the signal, so there is 
no real thermocouple (or more correctly, it's entirely contained 
within the connector). But if that's the case, why fool around with 
special copper connectors when common brass ones would be 
easier/cheaper? For current or resistance, the signal would also flow 
through the base metal, so does this have an effect (especially for 
tinned copper test leads, where there may be a larger temperature 
difference between the ends???


Nickle is avoided as a contact material largely because it is subject 
to fretting corrosion. Tests done by AMP 
(http://www.te.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/p154-74.pdf) show 
that a Ni to Ni contact can increase from 8 mOhm to 5 Ohms (sic!) in a 
short time due to this, while Ag and Au plated contacts exhibit 
negligible changes.


Cu (with Be for better machining) seems to be used as the base 
material for jacks/plugs to get thermal EMF cancellation to the wiring 
on both sides (i.e. use copper everywhere except where there is a 
minimal thermal gradient, like platings).


Beryllium copper is a springy material, Tellurium is the material added 
to aid machining without adding too much seebeck coefficient.


I remember someone on this list a long time ago saying that NPL used van 
damme star quad cable and bought bulk quantities of spade lugs that they 
strip all the coating off before crimping and clean before each use.

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Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

2014-08-27 Thread Stan Katz
As a non-scholar in metrology, I tend to want to simplify the results of an
academic debate to make the results of the debate useful to me. One thing
is clear from my web search, copper alloyed with Tellurium, or Beryllium,
still oxidizes, only at a slower rate. It appears that a big disadvantage
of Beryllium oxide is its very hard, a useful industrial characteristic.
Not a nice property in the metrology lab.

 Here goes:

For the purists with lab grade metallurgical abrasives, polishing
equipment, and oxide removal chemistry, only, copper, whether alloyed with
Beryllium or Tellurium is all they want to see in their lead terminations,
and they will try to procure only instruments with copper/copper alloy
terminals. These purists will clean/deoxidize  all connections in a
controlled atmosphere, and dry them in completely dry nitrogen, or other
inert gas. The connections will then be used immediately during the
measurement and the purists will have assured themselves that all
instrument to lead connections are tight enough to be oxygen free.

Can anyone mention any precision metrology instrumentation in current
production with pure copper, or copper alloy connectors? I have a 38 year
old Hp 740b, and yep, it's got Gold flashed connectors. This Gold flashing
seems to be a tradition.

The practical metrologist, will accept the fact that precision metrology
instruments are meant to last many years, and the terminals supplied with
these instruments must provide a stable thermal emf profile over time.
Thus, they accept instruments that come with gold plated terminals. The
Gold may need to be cleansed of debris, and degreased from time-to-time,
but the procedure is much simpler, and not as time consuming as oxide
removal.  The leads to these instruments are meant to be used day in, and
day out, as well. Therefore, the leads also terminate in some form of gold
plated connector. The practical metrologist is fastidious in controlling
temperature, and air movement in the lab, to minimize thermal unbalance in
his/her lash up.

Is this a foolish simplification of the thermals debate, or can I feel
vindicated using my homemade, gold plated lead terminations with my old
740b, and 731b?


On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 3:45 PM, M K m1k...@hotmail.com wrote:

 On 26/08/2014 16:05, Mike S wrote:

 After some more research, I think I've answered some of my own questions -

 Tellurium copper is used for binding posts, not because it has any
 special thermal or EMF mojo, but because it machines much better than pure
 copper. And, I suppose, because it sounds like it's extra special.

 The Seebeck coefficients (uV/C, relative to Cu) of some relevant
 materials:
 Cu 0.0
 Ag .2
 Au .5
 Yellow brass 1.5
 Phosphor bronze 2.0
 63/37 solder 3.0
 Sn 3.1
 Stainless steel 3.1
 Beryllium copper 5.0
 Fe -12.3
 Ni  22.3
 Te -49.25

 Based on the extreme Seebeck coefficient of pure tellurium vs. copper,
 I'd expect that there might be some coefficient between Cu and CuTe (0.5%
 Te), but I could find no reference. The relatively large number for CuBe is
 interesting, since that's a common material for banana plug springs, where
 one might expect the greatest temperature differential to occur in such a
 connection (between the thermal masses of the binding post/jack and the
 bulk of the banana plug). Heat has to flow a considerable distance through
 the springs, very much more than when it flows through a surface plating.

 The Pomona (Fluke) EM5295-48-0# uses CuBe (gold plated) for the spring
 contacts. It seems there might be an improvement to be had by using the
 older style pin plugs, where a solid pin was partially sliced into 4
 sections which were then spread apart a bit to create tension. That could
 eliminate relatively large thermocouples at a thermal gradient, and might
 also be expected to have less thermal resistance, allowing the connection
 to settle quicker.

 But maybe not - I'm still not clear on how plated conductors behave in
 this situation. For a high impedance voltage measurement where almost no
 current flows, the gold plating may carry the signal, so there is no real
 thermocouple (or more correctly, it's entirely contained within the
 connector). But if that's the case, why fool around with special copper
 connectors when common brass ones would be easier/cheaper? For current or
 resistance, the signal would also flow through the base metal, so does this
 have an effect (especially for tinned copper test leads, where there may be
 a larger temperature difference between the ends???

 Nickle is avoided as a contact material largely because it is subject to
 fretting corrosion. Tests done by AMP (http://www.te.com/
 documentation/whitepapers/pdf/p154-74.pdf) show that a Ni to Ni contact
 can increase from 8 mOhm to 5 Ohms (sic!) in a short time due to this,
 while Ag and Au plated contacts exhibit negligible changes.

 Cu (with Be for better machining) seems to be used as the base material
 for jacks/plugs to get thermal EMF 

[volt-nuts] fluke 5200a extender board.

2014-08-27 Thread Ken Goodhew1
Hi all,

Over the last 6 months I have been steadily repairing a
faulty 5200A that I brought, it had numerous faults in the power supply
regulator and power amplifier boards that I have managed to repair with a
lot of difficulty as I do not have an extender board to operate the boards
out of the chassis.

I managed to overcome this by running numerous test leads to
various points on the boards as I tested to enable me to take readings, but
I have now got down to what looks like a problem on the attenuator board
loading up the A7 power amplifier board and causing the +190 regulated
supply to drop.

The most likely cause is suggested as more than one
attenuator path being selected at the same time, but I think it will be
virtually impossible to trace the logic signals on and being supplied to the
attenuator board without an extender board, so if anybody out there has one
they are willing to sell please let me know! 

Alternatively it would be a great help if somebody could supply me with a
full scale photo copy of both sides of the extender board so I can have a go
at making one of my own.

The 43/86 pin card edge sockets are no longer available as
far as I can find out, the only company that lists any of them is Sullins
Connectors but they are out of stock as well, so I cannot envisage them
making any more in the near future, maybe somebody is parting out a 5200a?

If I can make a pcb for the extender board then I think I
can cobble up various parts to substitute for the card edge connector
required.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Ken Goodhew.

 



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[volt-nuts] Using a DVM to adjust a 752A divider

2014-08-27 Thread Mitch Van Ochten
Folks,

 

Had some correspondence with Fluke a while back regarding adjustment of the
752A Reference Divider.  They no longer sell the 845AB Null Detector but
they have some suggestions on alternate meters to do the job.  They also
make reference to zeroing the inputs of the detector, which has been a hot
topic lately.  Here is the link:

 

http://www.ko4bb.com/Manuals/Fluke/Fluke_-_Using_a_DMM_to_balance_752A_Divid
er.pdf

 

 

Best regards,

 

mitch

 

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