[volt-nuts] Fluke 332D
I need a little circuit help here -- I'm looking at the schematic of the chopper amp, A5A4, and I'm trying to figure out if this amp is inverting or non-inverting for DC signals, that is from pin 6 input to pin 4 output. I'm looking at the simplified diagram on page 102 of the PDF manual, Fig 8-1, 3 of 3. The detailed circuit for the chopper is on page 104. Best, Dick Moore ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[volt-nuts] fluke 332d
Just after the groups collective opinion on the suitability of a fluke 332d as a voltage standard for a home lab. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[volt-nuts] fluke 332D
Hi gang, Thanks for the suggestions as to what type of calibrator to get. I mostly want a stable precision variable voltage reference for what I do, but a current/ ac voltage / resistance standard would be nice, so I can definitely see this being addictive! I have already found that out with other gear in my lab, you get a piece of gear and then after a while find you want something better! I did bid on a 5540b/af from the government liquidations recently, but the shipping costs to Australia are what limits my bidding amount for equipment that seems to be mostly in the USA, so I usually get outbid. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[volt-nuts] fluke 332d
Hi, first my opinion about the Fluke 332/335: Those are very nice instruments, and you really need such instruments, if you really want to calibrate your DCV gear: Only having a 10V reference as 732A/B, or all those amateur grade 2.5 / 5 / 10V references won't help, as you always need the Cardinal Points (1000V, 100V, 10V, 1V, 100mV) for calibration. Therefore, those old 332/335 calibrators are basic instruments, to generate those voltage in first instance. You have to make sure, that they already contain the MOSFET chopper card (not the mechanical chopper). The reference also comes in two variants, either the older zener diode oven, or the Reference Amplifier version. Both are ok, but will not give more stability than about 10ppm/ 2months. There is an elaborate teardown/ripoff of the 332B/AF on EEEVBlog, where you can see additional stability parameters I have measured. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-332baf-in-the-slaughterhouse/msg393609/#msg393609 From those measurements, I really doubt, that old 332/335 calibrators will really get better over time. The reference is too simple to be principally stable, that begins with the simple oven, and ends by the non buried zener RefAmp. The cummulative drift over 40 years was about 500pm, so you cannot really state, that its stability had improved over time. The noise of the instrument presumably increased over time, as all the capacitors deteriorate, and also all the transistors loose their gain hfe. As simply a precision, stable high voltage power supply, a working 332D is very fine. The stability level is several ppm in any aspect. But as a standard, there's one important further problem: The 332D itself needs calibration, first linearity, second the range calibration. That strictly requires additional equipment, as a Fluke 720A, or a HP3458A, and a Fluke 752A. I have designed my own 100:1 / 10:1 Hammon divider, see EEVBLOG also, and for example, the 34401A is also capable to adjust the linearity. At least, I recommend to buy a Fluke 5440/5442. Its stabilities are ten times better in all aspects, and it features ultra high linearity by design,(my device: ~0.1ppm), and a Autocal feature, like the 3458A. The additional 1V and 100mV ranges have to be calibrated externally again, but 10V, 100V and 1kV can be calibrated from one external 10V source, similar to the 3458A. Frank ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 332D
Dick wrote: I need a little circuit help here -- I'm looking at the schematic of the chopper amp, A5A4, and I'm trying to figure out if this amp is inverting or non-inverting for DC signals, that is from pin 6 input to pin 4 output. I'm looking at the simplified diagram on page 102 of the PDF manual, Fig 8-1, 3 of 3. The detailed circuit for the chopper is on page 104. Best, Dick Moore ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. Inverting. Bruce ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 332D
Thanks, Bruce. Very helpful; still can't see it, tho'. Dick > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 22:47:56 +1300 > From: Bruce Griffiths > To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement > Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 332D > Message-ID: <50bdc6cc.4020...@xtra.co.nz> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Dick wrote: >> I need a little circuit help here -- I'm looking at the schematic of the >> chopper amp, A5A4, and I'm trying to figure out if this amp is inverting or >> non-inverting for DC signals, that is from pin 6 input to pin 4 output. I'm >> looking at the simplified diagram on page 102 of the PDF manual, Fig 8-1, 3 >> of 3. The detailed circuit for the chopper is on page 104. >> >> Best, >> Dick Moore >> ___ >> volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > Inverting. > > Bruce ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 332D
It has to be inverting or the correction loop would be unstable. The entire amplifier is configured as an inverting amplifier with the feedback resistors setting the gain and hence the output. The chopper amp merely nulls the summing junction voltage by applying a correction to the noninverting input of the amp. The feedback is only negative if the chopper amp is inverting. Bruce Dick wrote: Thanks, Bruce. Very helpful; still can't see it, tho'. Dick Message: 2 Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2012 22:47:56 +1300 From: Bruce Griffiths To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Fluke 332D Message-ID:<50bdc6cc.4020...@xtra.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Dick wrote: I need a little circuit help here -- I'm looking at the schematic of the chopper amp, A5A4, and I'm trying to figure out if this amp is inverting or non-inverting for DC signals, that is from pin 6 input to pin 4 output. I'm looking at the simplified diagram on page 102 of the PDF manual, Fig 8-1, 3 of 3. The detailed circuit for the chopper is on page 104. Best, Dick Moore ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. Inverting. Bruce ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] fluke 332d
Ken, I think the 332D would be a good tool for calibration of DMM's, etc., but probably a bit of an energy hog to leave turned on all the time. What do you want to do? For a constantly on 10 VDC reference, I would consider a 731B or 732A. For a 'calibrator', the 332D would be a good DC voltage calibrator up to 1100 VDC, IIRC. If you also need AC voltage, current, and resistance, consider a Fluke 5100B. For separate units, consider a 5200 for AC voltage and 5450 or some individual standard resistors for resistance. If you want only DC voltage and more stability than the 332D, consider a 5440B. Careful, this stuff can be addicting. Good luck. Joe -Original Message- From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Ken Goodhew Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 8:06 PM To: volt-nuts@febo.com Subject: [volt-nuts] fluke 332d Just after the groups collective opinion on the suitability of a fluke 332d as a voltage standard for a home lab. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] fluke 332d
I have a 332 that was unused on a shelf for 25-30 years. Together with a Guildline 4 cell standard, a 720, 845 and a ESI KV divider. (and more) I use the guildline and 720 to set the 332.,Then set a 731 as a control to check during calibration if one is changed. My 332 seems to be not bad but not as a pure Volt standard. If set it at 10V through the methode above, it aqlways needs to be set some where between 10.000,000 and 10,000.050. I power it up en set it around 12 hours before calibration and check it just before I need it. The dift the varies around +/- 4 uV. When I brought the 332 back to live I reformed and tested all caps. Replaced some and had to replace one power transistor. Afther that I calibrated it against de standard cells. My 731 is not great. For me as amateur calibrator/voltnut more then good enough. Fred Verzonden met Windows Mail Van: Frank Stellmach Verzonden: dinsdag 11 maart 2014 11:15 Aan: volt-nuts Hi, first my opinion about the Fluke 332/335: Those are very nice instruments, and you really need such instruments, if you really want to calibrate your DCV gear: Only having a 10V reference as 732A/B, or all those amateur grade 2.5 / 5 / 10V references won't help, as you always need the Cardinal Points (1000V, 100V, 10V, 1V, 100mV) for calibration. Therefore, those old 332/335 calibrators are basic instruments, to generate those voltage in first instance. You have to make sure, that they already contain the MOSFET chopper card (not the mechanical chopper). The reference also comes in two variants, either the older zener diode oven, or the Reference Amplifier version. Both are ok, but will not give more stability than about 10ppm/ 2months. There is an elaborate teardown/ripoff of the 332B/AF on EEEVBlog, where you can see additional stability parameters I have measured. http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-332baf-in-the-slaughterhouse/msg393609/#msg393609 From those measurements, I really doubt, that old 332/335 calibrators will really get better over time. The reference is too simple to be principally stable, that begins with the simple oven, and ends by the non buried zener RefAmp. The cummulative drift over 40 years was about 500pm, so you cannot really state, that its stability had improved over time. The noise of the instrument presumably increased over time, as all the capacitors deteriorate, and also all the transistors loose their gain hfe. As simply a precision, stable high voltage power supply, a working 332D is very fine. The stability level is several ppm in any aspect. But as a standard, there's one important further problem: The 332D itself needs calibration, first linearity, second the range calibration. That strictly requires additional equipment, as a Fluke 720A, or a HP3458A, and a Fluke 752A. I have designed my own 100:1 / 10:1 Hammon divider, see EEVBLOG also, and for example, the 34401A is also capable to adjust the linearity. At least, I recommend to buy a Fluke 5440/5442. Its stabilities are ten times better in all aspects, and it features ultra high linearity by design,(my device: ~0.1ppm), and a Autocal feature, like the 3458A. The additional 1V and 100mV ranges have to be calibrated externally again, but 10V, 100V and 1kV can be calibrated from one external 10V source, similar to the 3458A. Frank ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] fluke 332d and 732a... volt-nuts Digest, Vol 55, Issue 11
Question... do the old circuits get better with age? It would seem that the old standards would be much better now than they were when new. Is there any rule of thumb? Does a 20ppm/year circuit become a 10ppm/year circuit in say, 20 years? The industry uses voltage and temperature to simulate aging... so just 'aging' itself should work! The old survivors from the 70s, 80s and 90s should be very good! Willy - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Monday, March 10, 2014 8:41 AM Subject: volt-nuts Digest, Vol 55, Issue 11 Send volt-nuts mailing list submissions to volt-nuts@febo.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to volt-nuts-requ...@febo.com You can reach the person managing the list at volt-nuts-ow...@febo.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of volt-nuts digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Batch of old reference zeners (Bob Albert) 2. fluke 332d (Ken Goodhew) 3. Re: fluke 332d (J. L. Trantham) 4. Re: Batch of old reference zeners (Andreas Jahn) 5. Re: Batch of old reference zeners (M K) 6. Re: Batch of old reference zeners (Dr. David Kirkby) 7. Re: A Fluke 732A (Charles Steinmetz) -- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 17:35:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Albert To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] Batch of old reference zeners Message-ID: <1394411729.27034.yahoomail...@web122605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 I have a 3456A.? Is that good enough? Bob On Sunday, March 9, 2014 4:41 PM, Jan Fredriksson wrote: I have a batch of voltage references ICs on the shelf, several thousand of each type. They all have date codes of around 1983, ie 30 years old. It would be great to have some drift data on them. The ones listed below are the best of the bunch. - AS431, TO-92 and SOIC-8, 20ppm/C 120nV/sqrtHz (0.5% or 0.1%?) - LM385Z, TO-92, 80ppm/C, 600nV/SqrtHz, 60uV, 20ppm/SqrtKhr - LM329CZ, TO-92, 75nV/sqrtHz, 30ppm/C 7uV noise 20ppm (8ppm?) /SqrtKhr. - AS2951/2954, SOIC-8, 20ppm/C I am willing to send a handful (like at least 50 pcs) to anyone who can set up and monitor the drift of them for a few months and send me some data. Any takers? I will do similar monitoring myself, but would appreciate data from others, that's why I am doing this. I am also building some other references to compare with, based on LTZ1000 and other zeners. I am not asking anything in return, except that you return drift data, measured with some decent method, ie single digit ppm stability. If you happen to have some resistors rated like 10ppm/C or lower, surface or hole mount, I'd appreciate some of those in return, in values 1K-10K, but that is not a requirement. Jan ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:06:26 +1100 From: "Ken Goodhew" To: Subject: [volt-nuts] fluke 332d Message-ID: <000f01cf3bfc$f68da8b0$e3a8fa10$@iinet.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just after the groups collective opinion on the suitability of a fluke 332d as a voltage standard for a home lab. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2014 21:34:27 -0500 From: "J. L. Trantham" To: "'Discussion of precise voltage measurement'" Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] fluke 332d Message-ID: <00a601cf3c09$42ee00e0$c8ca02a0$@att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ken, I think the 332D would be a good tool for calibration of DMM's, etc., but probably a bit of an energy hog to leave turned on all the time. What do you want to do? For a constantly on 10 VDC reference, I would consider a 731B or 732A. For a 'calibrator', the 332D would be a good DC voltage calibrator up to 1100 VDC, IIRC. If you also need AC voltage, current, and resistance, consider a Fluke 5100B. For separate units, consider a 5200 for AC voltage and 5450 or some individual standard resistors for resistance. If you want only DC voltage and more stability than the 332D, consider a 5440B. Careful, this stuff can be addicting. Good luck. Joe -Original Message- From: volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Ken Goodhew Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2014 8:06 PM To: volt-nuts@febo.com Subject: [volt-nuts] fluke 332d Just after the groups collec
Re: [volt-nuts] fluke 332d and 732a... volt-nuts Digest, Vol 55, Issue 11
Aging is beneficial because it allows a part to physically relax into a shape that is appropriate for the way it is being operated... So, if a zener is going to be operated with no bias current, and at room temperature, sitting on a shelf for 30 years might be a plus... But not so much if the part is going to be run at 5ma bias, and a 55C operating temp. In that case, aging begins when the part is up to temperature, and power is turned on. -Chuck Harris new wrote: Question... do the old circuits get better with age? It would seem that the old standards would be much better now than they were when new. Is there any rule of thumb? Does a 20ppm/year circuit become a 10ppm/year circuit in say, 20 years? The industry uses voltage and temperature to simulate aging... so just 'aging' itself should work! The old survivors from the 70s, 80s and 90s should be very good! Willy ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
