Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jones Beene]

Speaking of the bad apples at ITER and their apologists   Shame on 
Mitsubishi...
http://news.newenergytimes.net/2020/06/17/paid-article-by-mitsubishi-in-forbes-falsifies-iter-design-objectives/

[Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Jurg—

FYI.  Robin made noter of the following:

https://www.nndc.bnl.gov/nudat2/RE:
\
Bob
From: Jürg Wyttenbach<mailto:ju...@datamart.ch>
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2020 3:26 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

Am 17.06.20 um 20:50 schrieb Nicholas Palmer:
> I subsequently found out that the important or only ingredient was
> zirconium. I had asked Chris at the time if aluminium powder might be
> part of the 'sauce' and he looked angry. I note that powdered
> zirconium can be used in old style flash bulbs and pyrotechnics. Do
> you know if anything came of it?

Zr is a violent partner in LENR reactions only working at very elevated
temperature. Brown gas can trigger strong coupled LENR reactions and Zr
may divert some energy out of the resonant "cake" due to its unique
gamma resonance structure.


J.W.

--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr.22
8910 Affoltern a.A.
044 760 14 18
079 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jones Beene]

 ITER is indeed a sad joke and a dirty stain on the physics establishment.
Wouldn't it be ironic if that project was magically savaged and made 
commercially useful - by the simple expedient of adding on a cheap muon source 
... which of course is where the Holmlid licensees are envissioning an 
opportunity? Muon catalyzed fusion could push that project from slightly above 
breakeven to massively energetic.

This scenario is not a fantasy dream. 

Matter of fact, it would be a surprise to me if something like this outcome 
does not happen in maybe a year or so. 


Michael Foster wrote:  
 I believe we are engaged in a nostalgic postmortem. No?  CF/LENR has been 
systematically beaten to death by members of the scientific establishment 
afraid of losing their grants, especially the ITER nuts with the huge budgets. 





  

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jürg Wyttenbach]

Am 17.06.20 um 20:50 schrieb Nicholas Palmer:
I subsequently found out that the important or only ingredient was 
zirconium. I had asked Chris at the time if aluminium powder might be 
part of the 'sauce' and he looked angry. I note that powdered 
zirconium can be used in old style flash bulbs and pyrotechnics. Do 
you know if anything came of it?


Zr is a violent partner in LENR reactions only working at very elevated 
temperature. Brown gas can trigger strong coupled LENR reactions and Zr 
may divert some energy out of the resonant "cake" due to its unique 
gamma resonance structure.



J.W.

--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr.22
8910 Affoltern a.A.
044 760 14 18
079 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Michael Foster]

I believe we are engaged in a nostalgic postmortem. No?  CF/LENR has been 
systematically beaten to death by members of the scientific establishment 
afraid of losing their grants, especially the ITER nuts with the huge budgets. 

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Terry Blanton]

Yes, the Cincinnati group.  Thanks.  I couldn't recall their name.  Your
memory is better than mine, old Beene.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 4:16 PM Jones Beene  wrote:

> I have a vague memory of it but not the details. There was a lot of
> disinformation about the exploits of the Cincinnati Group.
>
> Last I heard Keith is still at it and has a new project but that list
> folded.
>
>
>
> Terry Blanton wrote:
>
> Wow.  Okay, firing up the wayback machine...
>
> I vaguely recall that Keith Nagel was doing some research along those
> lines.  Maybe Jones remembers.  I think Beene participated in Nagel's
> NewCandle list where they did some research along those lines.
>
>  Nicholas Palmer wrote:
>
> Hi Terry,
>
> I think it was Chris T or Jed R who pointed me towards Vortex way back
> when. While we're reminiscing, I wonder if you might be able to clear up
> something? I met Chris at his house not that long before he died and he
> showed me something he was working on, which was the ' tile burn'
> experiment from the 'Cincinnati group' He showed me a kitchen tile with a
> 1cm diameter hole burned right through it and said it was amazing to watch
> it 'light up' when only 30 watts or so was used with a secret sauce. I
> subsequently found out that the important or only ingredient was zirconium.
> I had asked Chris at the time if aluminium powder might be part of the
> 'sauce' and he looked angry. I note that powdered zirconium can be used in
> old style flash bulbs and pyrotechnics. Do you know if anything came of it?
>
> Nick Palmer
>
>

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jones Beene]

 I have a vague memory of it but not the details. There was a lot of 
disinformation about the exploits of the Cincinnati Group. 

Last I heard Keith is still at it and has a new project but that list folded.



Terry Blanton wrote:  
 Wow.  Okay, firing up the wayback machine...
I vaguely recall that Keith Nagel was doing some research along those lines.  
Maybe Jones remembers.  I think Beene participated in Nagel's NewCandle list 
where they did some research along those lines.
 Nicholas Palmer wrote:

Hi Terry,

I think it was Chris T or Jed R who pointed me towards Vortex way back when. 
While we're reminiscing, I wonder if you might be able to clear up something? I 
met Chris at his house not that long before he died and he showed me something 
he was working on, which was the ' tile burn' experiment from the 'Cincinnati 
group' He showed me a kitchen tile with a 1cm diameter hole burned right 
through it and said it was amazing to watch it 'light up' when only 30 watts or 
so was used with a secret sauce. I subsequently found out that the important or 
only ingredient was zirconium. I had asked Chris at the time if aluminium 
powder might be part of the 'sauce' and he looked angry. I note that powdered 
zirconium can be used in old style flash bulbs and pyrotechnics. Do you know if 
anything came of it?

Nick Palmer
  

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Terry Blanton]

Wow.  Okay, firing up the wayback machine...

I vaguely recall that Keith Nagel was doing some research along those
lines.  Maybe Jones remembers.  I think Beene participated in Nagel's
NewCandle list where they did some research along those lines.

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 2:50 PM Nicholas Palmer <
greendirectionconsult...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Hi Terry,
>
> I think it was Chris T or Jed R who pointed me towards Vortex way back
> when. While we're reminiscing, I wonder if you might be able to clear up
> something? I met Chris at his house not that long before he died and he
> showed me something he was working on, which was the ' tile burn'
> experiment from the 'Cincinnati group' He showed me a kitchen tile with a
> 1cm diameter hole burned right through it and said it was amazing to watch
> it 'light up' when only 30 watts or so was used with a secret sauce. I
> subsequently found out that the important or only ingredient was zirconium.
> I had asked Chris at the time if aluminium powder might be part of the
> 'sauce' and he looked angry. I note that powdered zirconium can be used in
> old style flash bulbs and pyrotechnics. Do you know if anything came of it?
>
> Nick Palmer
>
> On the side of the Planet - and the people - because they're worth it
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 05:08, Terry Blanton  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:51 PM Terry Blanton 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:46 PM Robin 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 So if an insult was intended, none taken. :)

>>>
>>> No, Donk was my favorite character in "Crocodile Dundee".  Reminded me
>>> of my uncle.
>>>
>>
>> I joined this list over 2 decades ago at the encouragement of Chris
>> Tinsley, who I met on the MUFON forum of CompuServe where I was a moderator
>> and investigator for the Mutual UFO Network.  He encouraged me to join;
>> whereby, I could ask questions of Hal Puthoff directly since he
>> participated on Vortex at the time.  Chris also introduced me to Eugene
>> Mallove, another UFO fan; although, a bit more reserved than Chris.
>>
>> Dr. Puthoff was very approachable and even open to answering questions
>> about his involvement in Remote Viewing research among other things.
>> Little did I know (not a reference to Scott :) that Chris got me here
>> because I was skeptical of Cold Fusion and I learned the truth on the forum.
>>
>> Back then, the forum was fun with literally hundred of posts per week and
>> a lot of jovial posts along with the science.
>>
>> So, no harm intended Robin.  It's just that I've wasted a lot of time on
>> Randell Mills while the power industry has wasted a lot of money.  Pity
>> that kind of money did not go to Fleischmann and Pons back in the day.
>> But, hey, it was not meant to be.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Nicholas Palmer]

Hi Terry,

I think it was Chris T or Jed R who pointed me towards Vortex way back
when. While we're reminiscing, I wonder if you might be able to clear up
something? I met Chris at his house not that long before he died and he
showed me something he was working on, which was the ' tile burn'
experiment from the 'Cincinnati group' He showed me a kitchen tile with a
1cm diameter hole burned right through it and said it was amazing to watch
it 'light up' when only 30 watts or so was used with a secret sauce. I
subsequently found out that the important or only ingredient was zirconium.
I had asked Chris at the time if aluminium powder might be part of the
'sauce' and he looked angry. I note that powdered zirconium can be used in
old style flash bulbs and pyrotechnics. Do you know if anything came of it?

Nick Palmer

On the side of the Planet - and the people - because they're worth it


On Wed, 17 Jun 2020 at 05:08, Terry Blanton  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:51 PM Terry Blanton  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:46 PM Robin 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So if an insult was intended, none taken. :)
>>>
>>
>> No, Donk was my favorite character in "Crocodile Dundee".  Reminded me of
>> my uncle.
>>
>
> I joined this list over 2 decades ago at the encouragement of Chris
> Tinsley, who I met on the MUFON forum of CompuServe where I was a moderator
> and investigator for the Mutual UFO Network.  He encouraged me to join;
> whereby, I could ask questions of Hal Puthoff directly since he
> participated on Vortex at the time.  Chris also introduced me to Eugene
> Mallove, another UFO fan; although, a bit more reserved than Chris.
>
> Dr. Puthoff was very approachable and even open to answering questions
> about his involvement in Remote Viewing research among other things.
> Little did I know (not a reference to Scott :) that Chris got me here
> because I was skeptical of Cold Fusion and I learned the truth on the forum.
>
> Back then, the forum was fun with literally hundred of posts per week and
> a lot of jovial posts along with the science.
>
> So, no harm intended Robin.  It's just that I've wasted a lot of time on
> Randell Mills while the power industry has wasted a lot of money.  Pity
> that kind of money did not go to Fleischmann and Pons back in the day.
> But, hey, it was not meant to be.
>
> Cheers!
>

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jürg Wyttenbach]

Hi Bob

Classic entangled states are not far off the true SO(4) entangled 
magnetic states. The only difference is that we now know that 
entanglement is covered by the phase space and thus is not time bound. 
The wave nodes do look similar to a scalar wave and the whole entangled 
system thus can transport phase bound energy quasi timeless. Quasi, 
because we do not yet know whether the dense space metric gives some 
limitation. Experiments did show > 64c But the metric would allow (at 
best) up to pi^5 *4.


You are right that all you need is to set up a medium with identical 
magnetic behavior and connect the states with an ordering impulse. In 
SO(4) physics magnetic energies (states) must match (topology + coupling 
EM mass) to go into full resonance.


We had just an other LENR experiment that confirmed this!

J.W.

On 17.06.2020 06:51, bobcook39...@hotmail.com wrote:


Jurg and Jones and others—

Jurg makes a good point regarding a strong field trigger for the 
reaction.  The strong field may be electric or magnetic IMHO.


The allowable energies and positions in of particles described in such 
a system by a QM wave function will be changed, and the allowable 
combinations of  such parameters reduced.


_All_ the various particles that may be involved in the suggested LENR 
reaction that have a magnetic moment (dipole, quadrupole, octupole 
etc.) will align to some degree with the instanteous magnetic field, 
including one  associated with a passing photon of a laser beam.  If 
the  photons wave front is large enough and intense enough, many 
particles may resonate and exchange spin energy between themselves.


Some of the particles will increase their spin energy (for example. 
atoms with an electron structure) and others will decrease their spin 
energy (for example, various nuclear structures, properly aligned with 
magnetic moments of their constituent particles in phase.


The key to the reaction is having enough electronic states in atoms to 
accept a large amount of energy donated by one or more nuclei during 
the resonant cycle.


Before the reaction the order of the system is relatively  high (low 
entropy) and after the reaction the order of the system  is reduced 
with a resulting increase of entropy.


Order in this example is directly related to the total energy of the 
system and its homogeneity in  terms of energy/unit volume.


The entropy increase is consistent with the 2^nd Law of 
thermodynamics  for a reaction of an entangled (coherent) quantum system.


Knowing the stable or quasi stable spin energies of various particles 
in a coherent system, including their resonant parameters in an 
ambient magnetic field is the job of LENR engineers.


I think Jurg is working on such knowing for simple systems. The 
Brookhaven Laboratory in New York keeps a data base for many nuclear 
species of the isomeric energy states and respective spin states.  I 
believe it is available to the public.  I will research this question 
and try to get a good link to the data base.


Bob Cook



*From: *Jürg Wyttenbach <mailto:ju...@datamart.ch>
*Sent: *Monday, June 15, 2020 4:21 PM
*To: *vortex-l@eskimo.com <mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
*Subject: *Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?


On 15.06.2020 16:03, Chris Zell wrote:
> I suspect that the Papp engine involves a secret hiding in plain sight.

Papp in fact used a mixture of noble gases like Ag + Kr,Xe- Both are
very efficient in support of LENR reactions. You just need to add little
Deuterium, a rusty Fe2O3 side for the catalytic production of D*and a
mechanism (strong field) , to trigger the reaction.


Unluckily he was very selfish as most others are too in the LENR
business. He took everything with him and now power heaven... But I
think that a reproduction is just a matter of money.


J.W.



--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr. 22
8910 Affoltern am Albis

+41 44 760 14 18
+41 79 246 36 06


--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr. 22
8910 Affoltern am Albis

+41 44 760 14 18
+41 79 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Robin]

In reply to  bobcook39...@hotmail.com's message of Wed, 17 Jun 2020 04:51:53 
+:
Hi Bob,

Try this http://www.nndc.bnl.gov/chart/
[snip]
>I think Jurg is working on such knowing for simple systems.  The Brookhaven 
>Laboratory in New York keeps a data base for many nuclear species of the 
>isomeric energy states and respective spin states.  I believe it is available 
>to the public.  I will research this question and try to get a good link to 
>the data base.
>
>Bob Cook
[snip]

RE: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Jurg and Jones and others—

Jurg makes a good point regarding a strong field trigger for the reaction.  The 
strong field may be electric or magnetic IMHO.

The allowable energies and positions in of particles described in such a system 
by a QM wave function will be changed, and the allowable combinations of  such 
parameters reduced.

All the various particles that may be involved in the suggested LENR reaction 
that have a magnetic moment (dipole, quadrupole, octupole etc.) will align to 
some degree with the instanteous magnetic field, including one  associated with 
a passing photon of a laser beam.  If the  photons wave front is large enough 
and intense enough, many particles may resonate and exchange spin energy 
between themselves.

Some of the particles will increase their spin energy (for example. atoms with 
an electron structure) and others will decrease their spin energy (for example, 
various nuclear structures, properly aligned with magnetic moments of their 
constituent particles in phase.

The key to the reaction is having enough electronic states in atoms to accept a 
large amount of energy donated by one or more nuclei during the resonant cycle.

Before the reaction the order of the system is relatively  high (low entropy) 
and after the reaction the order of the system  is reduced with a resulting 
increase of entropy.
Order in this example is directly related to the total energy of the system and 
its homogeneity in  terms of energy/unit volume.

The entropy increase is consistent with the 2nd Law of thermodynamics  for a 
reaction of an entangled (coherent) quantum system.

Knowing the stable or quasi stable spin energies of various particles in a 
coherent system, including their resonant parameters in an ambient magnetic 
field is the job of LENR engineers.

I think Jurg is working on such knowing for simple systems.  The Brookhaven 
Laboratory in New York keeps a data base for many nuclear species of the 
isomeric energy states and respective spin states.  I believe it is available 
to the public.  I will research this question and try to get a good link to the 
data base.

Bob Cook



From: Jürg Wyttenbach<mailto:ju...@datamart.ch>
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 4:21 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?


On 15.06.2020 16:03, Chris Zell wrote:
> I suspect that the Papp engine involves a secret hiding in plain sight.

Papp in fact used a mixture of noble gases like Ag + Kr,Xe- Both are
very efficient in support of LENR reactions. You just need to add little
Deuterium, a rusty Fe2O3 side for the catalytic production of D*and a
mechanism (strong field) , to trigger the reaction.


Unluckily he was very selfish as most others are too in the LENR
business. He took everything with him and now power heaven... But I
think that a reproduction is just a matter of money.


J.W.



--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr. 22
8910 Affoltern am Albis

+41 44 760 14 18
+41 79 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:51 PM Terry Blanton  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:46 PM Robin 
> wrote:
>
>> So if an insult was intended, none taken. :)
>>
>
> No, Donk was my favorite character in "Crocodile Dundee".  Reminded me of
> my uncle.
>

I joined this list over 2 decades ago at the encouragement of Chris
Tinsley, who I met on the MUFON forum of CompuServe where I was a moderator
and investigator for the Mutual UFO Network.  He encouraged me to join;
whereby, I could ask questions of Hal Puthoff directly since he
participated on Vortex at the time.  Chris also introduced me to Eugene
Mallove, another UFO fan; although, a bit more reserved than Chris.

Dr. Puthoff was very approachable and even open to answering questions
about his involvement in Remote Viewing research among other things.
Little did I know (not a reference to Scott :) that Chris got me here
because I was skeptical of Cold Fusion and I learned the truth on the forum.

Back then, the forum was fun with literally hundred of posts per week and a
lot of jovial posts along with the science.

So, no harm intended Robin.  It's just that I've wasted a lot of time on
Randell Mills while the power industry has wasted a lot of money.  Pity
that kind of money did not go to Fleischmann and Pons back in the day.
But, hey, it was not meant to be.

Cheers!

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:46 PM Robin 
wrote:

> So if an insult was intended, none taken. :)
>

No, Donk was my favorite character in "Crocodile Dundee".  Reminded me of
my uncle.

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Robin]

In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 16 Jun 2020 23:04:48 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Sorry, Donk.  

"donk" is Dutch for a low hill or rise in the ground. The Spaan means Spanish. 
"van" is "from".

So if an insult was intended, none taken. :)

>Just my sick, cynical humor that no one gets.  I've been
>waiting decades on 3 things, a cold fusion generator, any working
>commercial device from Randell and aliens to land on the White House lawn.

Me too. :) However I doubt aliens would land on the Whitehouse lawn, they know 
they would be shot down. Also, why should
they show favoritism by singling out the USA for the honor?
If I were in their shoes, I would probably choose Switzerland, which has an 
enviable record of staying out of wars.
(Besides being neutral is much more profitable. ;)
[snip]

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:56 PM Robin 
wrote:
>
> In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:32:13 -0400:
> Hi Terry,
> [snip]
> >Quick, name 5 compounds that are *not* hydrino catalysts.  Are you sure?
> > ?
> I can't be sure of any of them, but what does that prove?

Sorry, Donk.  Just my sick, cynical humor that no one gets.  I've been
waiting decades on 3 things, a cold fusion generator, any working
commercial device from Randell and aliens to land on the White House lawn.

Honestly, I've been waiting longer on the aliens; but, I'm beginning to
think THAT might actually HAPPEN before I die.

Cheers!

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Robin]

In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:32:13 -0400:
Hi Terry,
[snip]
>Quick, name 5 compounds that are *not* hydrino catalysts.  Are you sure?
> ?
I can't be sure of any of them, but what does that prove?

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 5:59 PM Robin 
wrote:

> In reply to  Michael Foster's message of Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:11:40 +
> (UTC):
> Hi,
>
> When Hydrogen and Chlorine burn, they react in a series of reactions like
> this:-
>
> Cl + H2 -> HCl + H
> H + CL2 -> HCl + Cl
>
> Both H & Cl are free radicals.
>
> Both steps produce HCl molecules, and the first step produces copious
> amounts of H atoms. According to Mills, HCl can be
> a catalyst.
>

Quick, name 5 compounds that are *not* hydrino catalysts.  Are you sure?
 


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#m_-4362670091717778790_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Robin]

In reply to  Michael Foster's message of Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:11:40 + (UTC):
Hi,

When Hydrogen and Chlorine burn, they react in a series of reactions like this:-

Cl + H2 -> HCl + H
H + CL2 -> HCl + Cl

Both H & Cl are free radicals.

Both steps produce HCl molecules, and the first step produces copious amounts 
of H atoms. According to Mills, HCl can be
a catalyst. So now you have the perfect combination of gaseous fuel and 
catalyst. The energy released from the Hydrino
reaction is more than enough to split an additional H2 or Cl2 molecule to 
compensate for the lost H atom (losing an H
atom breaks that particular chain).
The UV serves to split the first few molecules, thus initiating the chain 
reactions.

>A couple of observations. If you are worried about the mechanical resonance of 
>this reaction, don't use an engine with a crankshaft. Instead, just have a 
>spring loaded piston with an adjustable tension to match the resonance of the 
>reaction. Energy could then be extracted by electromagnetic means.
>
>The Papp engine, though, seems to have relied on the UV triggered reaction 
>between gaseous hydrogen and chlorine. The participation of the noble gases 
>may have been the formation of numerous excimers with the chlorine. Maybe Papp 
>didn't really know, assuming he wasn't a total fraud, which of these noble 
>gasses was reacting, so he just more or less threw in the the kitchen sink. Or 
>maybe he was so secretive he was trying to hide which gas did the trick.
>
>The UV triggered reaction between hydrogen and chlorine might OU itself.  When 
>I was a very mischievous boy, I used to make what I called sunlight bombs by 
>filling glass bottles with a hydrogen and chlorine mixture. Hydrogen was made 
>by electrolysis. Chlorine was generated by mixing Clorox and Sani-Flush which 
>used to be sodium bisulfate.  I put one of these outside at night expecting 
>that the rising sun would set it off. It didn't happen. I discovered by 
>further reading that the UV exposure had to be sudden. So with my next attempt 
>I covered the bottle with a can attached to a string. When yanking the can off 
>the bottle there would be an unexpectedly huge explosion. This observation, 
>made more than 60 years ago, is purely subjective; but I can only say that the 
>explosion was a lot bigger than the chemical reaction warranted.  I am lucky 
>that I escaped childhood with all my fingers and both eyes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, June 13, 2020, 06:30:40 PM UTC, Jones Beene 
>  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> An interesting proposition for an advanced transportation fuel would be 
> presented to us - IF (big if) hydrogen can be routinely converted into a 
> denser form on a catalyst, and then expanded in a piston engine 
> configuration. This concept would relate to using argon as a "pseudo 
> oxidizer." Argon is not exactly "inert" to the same extent as helium and 
> other Column eight atoms (Vlll on the periodic table).
>
>AFAIK this exact concept, when transposed into a piston engine configuration, 
>has never been explored... or has it? There is the Papp engine, which used 
>argon and other inert gases but did not use hydrogen; and there is the Laumann 
>engine which included oxygen with argon and no surface catalyst -- but neither 
>of those is precisely the same.
>
>According to Wiki, "argonium" is the name for argon hydride which is a (1+) 
>ion species formed by combining a proton with argon into a short-lived 
>molecule (2+ millisecond) life - which has a
>surprising strong binding energy. Argonium is actually found to be relatively 
>common in
> interstellar space, despite this short lifetime.
>
>In a piston engine a short lifetime could actually be put to good use if an 
>asymmetry exists due to the Mills effect. It would act as a thermal sink.
>
>Imagine a closed cycle piston engine which recirculates the two gases H2 ans 
>Ar in such a way that under compression (at TDC) the two are combined on a 
>catalyst surface (such as nickel, palladium, iridium etc) allowing for net 
>energy to be freed as UV photons, which gain would be the result of some 
>combination of the ion binding energy along with a redundant orbital photon 
>emission less the ionization loss - as described by Mills, Holmlid etc.
>In Mills theory this emission would be related minimally to multiples of 27.2 
>eV so even if the reaction goes no further that a single redundant hydrogen 
>orbital reduction, an attractive scenario for net gain would exist - even if 
>the protons are lost after a single pass and must be continually replace by 
>electrolysis of water.

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jones Beene]

 Interesting info, Michael
Another wrinkle to add in the mix (for a working method of collecting energy 
from dense hydrogen in a mechanical device) is the apparent superconductivity 
of protons when absorbed into a metal matrix even at elevated temperatures. 

Since superconductors are strongly diamagnetic (thousands of times more so than 
bismuth) this property offers a way to ensure directional movement of 
reactants. 

More on this later.

Michael Foster wrote:  
 A couple of observations. If you are worried about the mechanical resonance of 
this reaction, don't use an engine with a crankshaft. Instead, just have a 
spring loaded piston with an adjustable tension to match the resonance of the 
reaction. Energy could then be extracted by electromagnetic means.

The Papp engine, though, seems to have relied on the UV triggered reaction 
between gaseous hydrogen and chlorine. The participation of the noble gases may 
have been the formation of numerous excimers with the chlorine. Maybe Papp 
didn't really know, assuming he wasn't a total fraud, which of these noble 
gasses was reacting, so he just more or less threw in the the kitchen sink. Or 
maybe he was so secretive he was trying to hide which gas did the trick.

The UV triggered reaction between hydrogen and chlorine might OU itself.  When 
I was a very mischievous boy, I used to make what I called sunlight bombs by 
filling glass bottles with a hydrogen and chlorine mixture. Hydrogen was made 
by electrolysis. Chlorine was generated by mixing Clorox and Sani-Flush which 
used to be sodium bisulfate.  I put one of these outside at night expecting 
that the rising sun would set it off. It didn't happen. I discovered by further 
reading that the UV exposure had to be sudden. So with my next attempt I 
covered the bottle with a can attached to a string. When yanking the can off 
the bottle there would be an unexpectedly huge explosion. This observation, 
made more than 60 years ago, is purely subjective; but I can only say that the 
explosion was a lot bigger than the chemical reaction warranted.  I am lucky 
that I escaped childhood with all my fingers and both eyes.

On Saturday, June 13, Jones Beene wrote:

An interesting proposition for an advanced transportation fuel would be 
presented to us - IF (big if) hydrogen can be routinely converted into a denser 
form on a catalyst, and then expanded in a piston engine configuration. This 
concept would relate to using argon as a "pseudo oxidizer." Argon is not 
exactly "inert" to the same extent as helium and other Column eight atoms (Vlll 
on the periodic table).

AFAIK this exact concept, when transposed into a piston engine configuration, 
has never been explored... or has it? There is the Papp engine, which used 
argon and other inert gases but did not use hydrogen; and there is the Laumann 
engine which included oxygen with argon and no surface catalyst -- but neither 
of those is precisely the same.

According to Wiki, "argonium" is the name for argon hydride which is a (1+) ion 
species formed by combining a proton with argon into a short-lived molecule (2+ 
millisecond) life - which has a
surprising strong binding energy. Argonium is actually found to be relatively 
common in
 interstellar space, despite this short lifetime.

In a piston engine a short lifetime could actually be put to good use if an 
asymmetry exists due to the Mills effect. It would act as a thermal sink.

Imagine a closed cycle piston engine which recirculates the two gases H2 ans Ar 
in such a way that under compression (at TDC) the two are combined on a 
catalyst surface (such as nickel, palladium, iridium etc) allowing for net 
energy to be freed as UV photons, which gain would be the result of some 
combination of the ion binding energy along with a redundant orbital photon 
emission less the ionization loss - as described by Mills, Holmlid etc.
In Mills theory this emission would be related minimally to multiples of 27.2 
eV so even if the reaction goes no further that a single redundant hydrogen 
orbital reduction, an attractive scenario for net gain would exist - even if 
the protons are lost after a single pass and must be continually replace by 
electrolysis of water.

  

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Michael Foster]

A couple of observations. If you are worried about the mechanical resonance of 
this reaction, don't use an engine with a crankshaft. Instead, just have a 
spring loaded piston with an adjustable tension to match the resonance of the 
reaction. Energy could then be extracted by electromagnetic means.

The Papp engine, though, seems to have relied on the UV triggered reaction 
between gaseous hydrogen and chlorine. The participation of the noble gases may 
have been the formation of numerous excimers with the chlorine. Maybe Papp 
didn't really know, assuming he wasn't a total fraud, which of these noble 
gasses was reacting, so he just more or less threw in the the kitchen sink. Or 
maybe he was so secretive he was trying to hide which gas did the trick.

The UV triggered reaction between hydrogen and chlorine might OU itself.  When 
I was a very mischievous boy, I used to make what I called sunlight bombs by 
filling glass bottles with a hydrogen and chlorine mixture. Hydrogen was made 
by electrolysis. Chlorine was generated by mixing Clorox and Sani-Flush which 
used to be sodium bisulfate.  I put one of these outside at night expecting 
that the rising sun would set it off. It didn't happen. I discovered by further 
reading that the UV exposure had to be sudden. So with my next attempt I 
covered the bottle with a can attached to a string. When yanking the can off 
the bottle there would be an unexpectedly huge explosion. This observation, 
made more than 60 years ago, is purely subjective; but I can only say that the 
explosion was a lot bigger than the chemical reaction warranted.  I am lucky 
that I escaped childhood with all my fingers and both eyes.








 On Saturday, June 13, 2020, 06:30:40 PM UTC, Jones Beene  
wrote:





 An interesting proposition for an advanced transportation fuel would be 
presented to us - IF (big if) hydrogen can be routinely converted into a denser 
form on a catalyst, and then expanded in a piston engine configuration. This 
concept would relate to using argon as a "pseudo oxidizer." Argon is not 
exactly "inert" to the same extent as helium and other Column eight atoms (Vlll 
on the periodic table).

AFAIK this exact concept, when transposed into a piston engine configuration, 
has never been explored... or has it? There is the Papp engine, which used 
argon and other inert gases but did not use hydrogen; and there is the Laumann 
engine which included oxygen with argon and no surface catalyst -- but neither 
of those is precisely the same.

According to Wiki, "argonium" is the name for argon hydride which is a (1+) ion 
species formed by combining a proton with argon into a short-lived molecule (2+ 
millisecond) life - which has a
surprising strong binding energy. Argonium is actually found to be relatively 
common in
 interstellar space, despite this short lifetime.

In a piston engine a short lifetime could actually be put to good use if an 
asymmetry exists due to the Mills effect. It would act as a thermal sink.

Imagine a closed cycle piston engine which recirculates the two gases H2 ans Ar 
in such a way that under compression (at TDC) the two are combined on a 
catalyst surface (such as nickel, palladium, iridium etc) allowing for net 
energy to be freed as UV photons, which gain would be the result of some 
combination of the ion binding energy along with a redundant orbital photon 
emission less the ionization loss - as described by Mills, Holmlid etc.
In Mills theory this emission would be related minimally to multiples of 27.2 
eV so even if the reaction goes no further that a single redundant hydrogen 
orbital reduction, an attractive scenario for net gain would exist - even if 
the protons are lost after a single pass and must be continually replace by 
electrolysis of water.

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jones Beene]

Can a genius inventor also be a shameless scam artist? Rossi comes to mind, as 
does Papp.
Maybe even Edison ... and Tesla too. There is a thin line, as they say...

Here is a decent analysis of Papp. Recently posted video - well done
The Mystery of Joe Papp’s Noble Gas Engine | Ryan S. Wood

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The Mystery of Joe Papp’s Noble Gas Engine | Ryan S. Wood


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Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jürg Wyttenbach]

On 15.06.2020 16:03, Chris Zell wrote:

I suspect that the Papp engine involves a secret hiding in plain sight.


Papp in fact used a mixture of noble gases like Ag + Kr,Xe- Both are 
very efficient in support of LENR reactions. You just need to add little 
Deuterium, a rusty Fe2O3 side for the catalytic production of D*and a 
mechanism (strong field) , to trigger the reaction.



Unluckily he was very selfish as most others are too in the LENR 
business. He took everything with him and now power heaven... But I 
think that a reproduction is just a matter of money.



J.W.



--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr. 22
8910 Affoltern am Albis

+41 44 760 14 18
+41 79 246 36 06

RE: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[JonesBeene]

The working gas would be argon, which is also a reactant.  Argon will from a 
short lived molecule with hydrogen. Helium will not. Too bad since He has 
better heat transfer properties.

For a closed-cycle piston engine of this sort to work, the piston crown and the 
facing cylinder head would need to be catalytic for the formation of dense 
hydrogen when exposed to a mixed pressurized gas of hydrogen and argon. A very 
large compression ratio would be possible.

Ideally dense hydrogen on this catalytic surface would then combine immediately 
as it is being formed - with argon - at TDC which will them form argonium with 
exotherm

For this cycle to repeat ad infinitum, the argonium would need to decay at BDC. 
The normal version of argonium according to Wiki has a lifetime of 2+ 
milliseconds which may be too short for realistic rotational speed.

Thus – another miracle needed for this to work at all, is that the denser form 
of argonium would need to have a lifetime of about 10 milliseconds for a 
resonance at about 6000 RPM. 

No one has published anything about a dense form or argonium or any other 
molecule containing dense hydrogen. Maybe dense hydrogen will not bind to argon 
at all. 

This is why experimenter need to be able to make dense hydrogen reliably – to 
characterize all its properties,  and AFAIK no independent researcher can do 
this now.




Jones—
In your engine conceptual design what is the working gas that is heated and 
then does work in the decompression portion of the cycle?

Is it the Ar-H gas or a separate gas that is heated by the release of energy 
from the reactants in the “reaction chamber” (as the cylinder might be called) 
but not modified  by the release of energy .

For example,heliume might work well and be conserved without modification in a 
hermetically “reaction chamber that contained a “fuel” that would react with an 
appropriate EM trigger—“spark plug.”   Introduction of additional fuel stored 
within  the hermetically sealed  envelop could be accomplished after the 
original charge was sufficiently depleted—maybe a day, a week or longer, 
depending the dynamics of the system parameters that affect the reaction.

Bob Cook
.

➢ In a closed-cycle piston engine, particularly a Stirling-type, the suggestion 
is that there could be an inherent thermodynamic advantage in having sequential 
reactions which are exothermic on formation and then endothermic milliseconds 
later, on the expansion stroke. A resonance could then be engineered, 
especially if the decay was sharp and reliable and the engine ran at one speed 
only. However, this may not be what happens in practice with argon and hydrogen.

➢ If the lifetime of argonium happened with endotherm precisely at BDC, then 
that could present a bonus cooling effect in addition to the change in 
displacement. This would arguably increase the Carnot spread between the hot 
end and cold end of the Stirling. I have not been able to find evidence for 
this type of thermodynamic cycle in the literature.

RE: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Chris—

I had some of your ideas also.  Helium gas as a working gas seems like a good 
idea.

My understanding about the cause of lightening is based on an accumulation of 
differential  charge (like between two plates of a capacitor) between separate 
clouds and/of the ground.   The charges come from initially neutral atoms that 
loose electrons by frictional action called static electricity.

In most thunder storms with lightening and clouds not too close to the ground, 
lightening occurs between clouds.  If the clouds with their static electrical 
charge centers get close to the ground, a discharge to ground becomes more 
frequent.

Bob Cook
_

From: Chris Zell<mailto:chrisz...@wetmtv.com>
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 7:03 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

I suspect that the Papp engine involves a secret hiding in plain sight.

Inert gases have nothing to do with it. It’s the electrohydraulic effect using 
water vapor. Supposedly, there was a government test, previous to the tragic 
Feynmann incident, in which a gun barrel exploded like petals on a flower, 
cartoon-style.

I did a Quora question on lightning and couldn’t get a straight answer on how 
these discharges work, as the official narrative makes no sense at all.  
Charges in clouds shouldn’t accumulate because of electrostatic repulsion, no 
different from a stack precipitator.
One physicist did offer a reference from a Russian paper which claimed cosmic 
rays trigger lightning but that doesn’t cover the whole thing.

The secret to free energy could be right in front of us, every time it thunders.

From: Jones Beene 
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 2:31 PM
To: vortex 
Subject: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

An interesting proposition for an advanced transportation fuel would be 
presented to us - IF (big if) hydrogen can be routinely converted into a denser 
form on a catalyst, and then expanded in a piston engine configuration. This 
concept would relate to using argon as a "pseudo oxidizer." Argon is not 
exactly "inert" to the same extent as helium and other Column eight atoms (Vlll 
on the periodic table).

AFAIK this exact concept, when transposed into a piston engine configuration, 
has never been explored... or has it? There is the Papp engine, which used 
argon and other inert gases but did not use hydrogen; and there is the Laumann 
engine which included oxygen with argon and no surface catalyst -- but neither 
of those is precisely the same.


sender.

RE: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Jones—
In your engine conceptual design what is the working gas that is heated and 
then does work in the decompression portion of the cycle?

Is it the Ar-H gas or a separate gas that is heated by the release of energy 
from the reactants in the “reaction chamber” (as the cylinder might be called) 
but not modified  by the release of energy .

For example,heliume might work well and be conserved without modification in a 
hermetically “reaction chamber that contained a “fuel” that would react with an 
appropriate EM trigger—“spark plug.”   Introduction of additional fuel stored 
within  the hermetically sealed  envelop could be accomplished after the 
original charge was sufficiently depleted—maybe a day, a week or longer, 
depending the dynamics of the system parameters that affect the reaction.

Bob Cook
.


Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Jones Beene<mailto:jone...@pacbell.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 3:10 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

In a closed-cycle piston engine, particularly a Stirling-type, the suggestion 
is that there could be an inherent thermodynamic advantage in having sequential 
reactions which are exothermic on formation and then endothermic milliseconds 
later, on the expansion stroke.

A resonance could then be engineered, especially if the decay was sharp and 
reliable and the engine ran at one speed only. However, this may not be what 
happens in practice with argon and hydrogen.

If the lifetime of argonium happened with endotherm precisely at BDC, then that 
could present a bonus cooling effect in addition to the change in displacement. 
This would arguably increase the Carnot spread between the hot end and cold end 
of the Stirling.

I have not been able to find evidence for this type of thermodynamic cycle in 
the literature.


Jürg Wyttenbach wrote:

ArH3+ is long time stable and Ar H3+ is the driving factor in Mills original 
SUNCELL reaction. In fact H3+ is the most abundant form of Hydrogen in deep 
space.

RE: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Chris Zell]

I suspect that the Papp engine involves a secret hiding in plain sight.

Inert gases have nothing to do with it. It’s the electrohydraulic effect using 
water vapor. Supposedly, there was a government test, previous to the tragic 
Feynmann incident, in which a gun barrel exploded like petals on a flower, 
cartoon-style.

I did a Quora question on lightning and couldn’t get a straight answer on how 
these discharges work, as the official narrative makes no sense at all.  
Charges in clouds shouldn’t accumulate because of electrostatic repulsion, no 
different from a stack precipitator.
One physicist did offer a reference from a Russian paper which claimed cosmic 
rays trigger lightning but that doesn’t cover the whole thing.

The secret to free energy could be right in front of us, every time it thunders.

From: Jones Beene 
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 2:31 PM
To: vortex 
Subject: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

An interesting proposition for an advanced transportation fuel would be 
presented to us - IF (big if) hydrogen can be routinely converted into a denser 
form on a catalyst, and then expanded in a piston engine configuration. This 
concept would relate to using argon as a "pseudo oxidizer." Argon is not 
exactly "inert" to the same extent as helium and other Column eight atoms (Vlll 
on the periodic table).

AFAIK this exact concept, when transposed into a piston engine configuration, 
has never been explored... or has it? There is the Papp engine, which used 
argon and other inert gases but did not use hydrogen; and there is the Laumann 
engine which included oxygen with argon and no surface catalyst -- but neither 
of those is precisely the same.


sender.

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jones Beene]

 In a closed-cycle piston engine, particularly a Stirling-type, the suggestion 
is that there could be an inherent thermodynamic advantage in having sequential 
reactions which are exothermic on formation and then endothermic milliseconds 
later, on the expansion stroke. 

A resonance could then be engineered, especially if the decay was sharp and 
reliable and the engine ran at one speed only. However, this may not be what 
happens in practice with argon and hydrogen.

If the lifetime of argonium happened with endotherm precisely at BDC, then that 
could present a bonus cooling effect in addition to the change in displacement. 
This would arguably increase the Carnot spread between the hot end and cold end 
of the Stirling. 

I have not been able to find evidence for this type of thermodynamic cycle in 
the literature.


Jürg Wyttenbach wrote:   
ArH3+ is long time stable and Ar H3+ is the driving factor in Mills original 
SUNCELL reaction. In fact H3+ is the most abundant form of Hydrogen in deep 
space.  
  

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jürg Wyttenbach]

ArH_3 ^+ is long time stable and Ar H_3 ^+ is the driving factor in 
Mills original SUNCELL reaction. In fact H_3 ^+ is the most abundant 
form of Hydrogen in deep space. About H* we do not yet know.


In Mills theory this emission would be related minimally to multiples of 
27.2 eV so even if the reaction goes no further that a single redundant 
hydrogen orbital reduction, an attractive scenario for net gain would 
exist - even if the protons are lost after a single pass and must be 
continually replace by electrolysis of water.


For a magnetic resonance any coupling mass must be of same size and 
topology 27.2eV is just one good sample that works. But this has nothing 
to do with Mills model. It's just a lucky fit.


The production of H*-H* as Mills does it in teh SUN-CELL is very risky 
as nobody so far knows about its biological impact. I would stay far 
away. Only a follow-up


H*-H*+Any-isotope add-on LENR reaction would reduce the risk.


J.W.


On 13.06.2020 20:30, Jones Beene wrote:
An interesting proposition for an advanced transportation fuel would 
be presented to us - IF (big if) hydrogen can be routinely converted 
into a denser form on a catalyst, and then expanded in a piston engine 
configuration. This concept would relate to using argon as a "pseudo 
oxidizer." Argon is not exactly "inert" to the same extent as helium 
and other Column eight atoms (Vlll on the periodic table).





AFAIK this exact concept, when transposed into a piston engine 
configuration, has never been explored... or has it? There is the Papp 
engine, which used argon and other inert gases but did not use 
hydrogen; and there is the Laumann engine which included oxygen with 
argon and no surface catalyst -- but neither of those is precisely the 
same.


According to Wiki, "argonium" is the name for *argon hydride* which 
is**a (1+) ion species formed by combining a proton with argon into a 
short-lived molecule (2+ millisecond) life - which has a surprising 
strong binding energy. Argonium is actually found to be relatively 
common in interstellar space, despite this short lifetime.


In a piston engine a short lifetime could actually be put to good use 
if an asymmetry exists due to the Mills effect. It would act as a 
thermal sink.


Imagine a closed cycle piston engine which recirculates the two gases 
H2 ans Ar in such a way that under compression (at TDC) the two are 
combined on a catalyst surface (such as nickel, palladium, iridium 
etc) allowing for net energy to be freed as UV photons, which gain 
would be the result of some combination of the ion binding energy 
along with a redundant orbital photon emission less the ionization 
loss - as described by Mills, Holmlid etc.


In Mills theory this emission would be related minimally to multiples 
of 27.2 eV so even if the reaction goes no further that a single 
redundant hydrogen orbital reduction, an attractive scenario for net 
gain would exist - even if the protons are lost after a single pass 
and must be continually replace by electrolysis of water.














--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr. 22
8910 Affoltern am Albis

+41 44 760 14 18
+41 79 246 36 06

[Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jones Beene]

An interesting proposition for an advanced transportation fuel would be 
presented to us - IF (big if) hydrogen can be routinely converted into a denser 
form on a catalyst, and then expanded in a piston engine configuration. This 
concept would relate to using argon as a "pseudo oxidizer." Argon is not 
exactly "inert" to the same extent as helium and other Column eight atoms (Vlll 
on the periodic table).

AFAIK this exact concept, when transposed into a piston engine configuration, 
has never been explored... or has it? There is the Papp engine, which used 
argon and other inert gases but did not use hydrogen; and there is the Laumann 
engine which included oxygen with argon and no surface catalyst -- but neither 
of those is precisely the same.

According to Wiki, "argonium" is the name for argon hydride which is a (1+) ion 
species formed by combining a proton with argon into a short-lived molecule (2+ 
millisecond) life - which has a surprising strong binding energy. Argonium is 
actually found to be relatively common in interstellar space, despite this 
short lifetime. 

In a piston engine a short lifetime could actually be put to good use if an 
asymmetry exists due to the Mills effect. It would act as a thermal sink.

Imagine a closed cycle piston engine which recirculates the two gases H2 ans Ar 
in such a way that under compression (at TDC) the two are combined on a 
catalyst surface (such as nickel, palladium, iridium etc) allowing for net 
energy to be freed as UV photons, which gain would be the result of some 
combination of the ion binding energy along with a redundant orbital photon 
emission less the ionization loss - as described by Mills, Holmlid etc.
In Mills theory this emission would be related minimally to multiples of 27.2 
eV so even if the reaction goes no further that a single redundant hydrogen 
orbital reduction, an attractive scenario for net gain would exist - even if 
the protons are lost after a single pass and must be continually replace by 
electrolysis of water.