Re: [Vo]: Interesting Information Contained in Output Temperature Curve Shape
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 12:57 PM, David Roberson wrote: > There is a wealth of information contained within the shape of the output > temperature curve associated with operation of the ECAT. > That's total speculative and nonsensical over-interpretation. It's based in the first place on the assumption that the power is constant during the "on" phase and zero in the "off" phase, but if that's what it is, why would Rossi have forbidden measurement of the actual wave to the ecat during the live run? He permitted measuring the power to the ecat during the blank run. Then they say it's the same, except for the turning off, but don't allow measurement. Again, why? He's told us what it is, but it can't be measured. The most obvious explanation is that he's concealing additional power input during the "off" cycle. The exact shape of the power cycle is completely unknown. If the particular details of the power input are proprietary, and it's not measured, you can't conclude anything from the output waveform, beyond that it has the same periodicity as the input power fluctuation. The "on" portion may not be flat, and the "off" may not be zero or flat. Otherwise, there would be no reason to disallow their measurement. Even if your assumptions of the input were correct, your interpretation of the inflection point is far too vague and unspecific to mean anything to me. Your spice model may give you all the results you want, but your descriptions of what's happening are far from clear.
Re: [Vo]: Interesting Information Contained in Output Temperature Curve Shape
about the trade secret, it is already in the report, and not surprising. about the engineer able to harness and control anything from gearbox to furnace. no. serious. anyway quite common, it is a job. 2013/5/31 David Roberson > I assume that you are kidding Alain. I just want to point out a few > important observations which others might find useful as they search for a > better understanding of how this puppy works. There is so much untruth > floating around that every once in a while it feels good to throw in a good > bone. > > Dave > -Original Message- > From: Alain Sepeda > To: Vortex List > Sent: Fri, May 31, 2013 3:14 pm > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Interesting Information Contained in Output Temperature > Curve Shape > > ah at last a control-command model of the reactor... > beware, you publish trade secret ! > > I know an engineer that given that knowledge can install an automotive > computer, program a matlab model, and control that the optimal way, with a > hardened processor tha resist all a car can suffer. > > ask him a thermal engine and he make a CHP (all is on-the-shelves). talk > him of thermal regulation and smart grid awareness... I guess he can... > > time is for engineering. > > > 2013/5/31 David Roberson > >> There is a wealth of information contained within the shape of the >> output temperature curve associated with operation of the ECAT. My spice >> model also demonstrates this behavior and the testers eluded to some of the >> important issues. It is apparent to anyone reviewing the output >> temperature curve that the ECAT does not behave like an ordinary resistor. >> >> The time frame over which the ECAT operates is determined to a major >> extent by the thermal mass of the device and that is why the earlier CATs >> operated for variable periods within the SSM(Self Sustaining Mode). For >> some reason the skeptics do not understand this issue and make a big deal >> out of the relatively rapid cycle period of the latest test unit. You can >> expect this parameter to change repeatedly as the design is modified into >> the future. >> >> I want to point out an important feature revealed by the output power >> curve. This curve can be found in the released paper on page 27 as plot >> 8. When positive feedback is active, the resulting temperature curve has a >> well defined characteristic. Most of the runs that I have done with my >> model are when the COP of the ECAT is usefully high. Of course COP of 6 >> falls into the category, while the lower COP of 3 does not hold as much >> interest. >> >> If you look at the falling edge of the waveform you will see an inflexion >> point. High temperatures above that location are generated as a result of >> positive feedback with a the loop gain of greater than 1. This causes a >> bowed shape where the temperature wants to stay elevated. At the inflexion >> point the gain becomes less than 1 and stable operation ensues. >> >> The driven portion of the waveform behaves in a similar manner. This is >> a bit less evident due to the masking from the input power. Initially the >> loop gain is less than 1 with a very low COP if held at the operation >> point. But, to get the good performance, drive is continued at a level >> that leads to the unstable state which is when the loop gain is 1 or more. >> An inflection point shows up when instability is reached. >> >> Enough for now, >> >> Dave >> >> >> > >
Re: [Vo]: Interesting Information Contained in Output Temperature Curve Shape
I assume that you are kidding Alain. I just want to point out a few important observations which others might find useful as they search for a better understanding of how this puppy works. There is so much untruth floating around that every once in a while it feels good to throw in a good bone. Dave -Original Message- From: Alain Sepeda To: Vortex List Sent: Fri, May 31, 2013 3:14 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]: Interesting Information Contained in Output Temperature Curve Shape ah at last a control-command model of the reactor... beware, you publish trade secret ! I know an engineer that given that knowledge can install an automotive computer, program a matlab model, and control that the optimal way, with a hardened processor tha resist all a car can suffer. ask him a thermal engine and he make a CHP (all is on-the-shelves). talk him of thermal regulation and smart grid awareness... I guess he can... time is for engineering. 2013/5/31 David Roberson There is a wealth of information contained within the shape of the output temperature curve associated with operation of the ECAT. My spice model also demonstrates this behavior and the testers eluded to some of the important issues. It is apparent to anyone reviewing the output temperature curve that the ECAT does not behave like an ordinary resistor. The time frame over which the ECAT operates is determined to a major extent by the thermal mass of the device and that is why the earlier CATs operated for variable periods within the SSM(Self Sustaining Mode). For some reason the skeptics do not understand this issue and make a big deal out of the relatively rapid cycle period of the latest test unit. You can expect this parameter to change repeatedly as the design is modified into the future. I want to point out an important feature revealed by the output power curve. This curve can be found in the released paper on page 27 as plot 8. When positive feedback is active, the resulting temperature curve has a well defined characteristic. Most of the runs that I have done with my model are when the COP of the ECAT is usefully high. Of course COP of 6 falls into the category, while the lower COP of 3 does not hold as much interest. If you look at the falling edge of the waveform you will see an inflexion point. High temperatures above that location are generated as a result of positive feedback with a the loop gain of greater than 1. This causes a bowed shape where the temperature wants to stay elevated. At the inflexion point the gain becomes less than 1 and stable operation ensues. The driven portion of the waveform behaves in a similar manner. This is a bit less evident due to the masking from the input power. Initially the loop gain is less than 1 with a very low COP if held at the operation point. But, to get the good performance, drive is continued at a level that leads to the unstable state which is when the loop gain is 1 or more. An inflection point shows up when instability is reached. Enough for now, Dave
Re: [Vo]: Interesting Information Contained in Output Temperature Curve Shape
ah at last a control-command model of the reactor... beware, you publish trade secret ! I know an engineer that given that knowledge can install an automotive computer, program a matlab model, and control that the optimal way, with a hardened processor tha resist all a car can suffer. ask him a thermal engine and he make a CHP (all is on-the-shelves). talk him of thermal regulation and smart grid awareness... I guess he can... time is for engineering. 2013/5/31 David Roberson > There is a wealth of information contained within the shape of the > output temperature curve associated with operation of the ECAT. My spice > model also demonstrates this behavior and the testers eluded to some of the > important issues. It is apparent to anyone reviewing the output > temperature curve that the ECAT does not behave like an ordinary resistor. > > The time frame over which the ECAT operates is determined to a major > extent by the thermal mass of the device and that is why the earlier CATs > operated for variable periods within the SSM(Self Sustaining Mode). For > some reason the skeptics do not understand this issue and make a big deal > out of the relatively rapid cycle period of the latest test unit. You can > expect this parameter to change repeatedly as the design is modified into > the future. > > I want to point out an important feature revealed by the output power > curve. This curve can be found in the released paper on page 27 as plot > 8. When positive feedback is active, the resulting temperature curve has a > well defined characteristic. Most of the runs that I have done with my > model are when the COP of the ECAT is usefully high. Of course COP of 6 > falls into the category, while the lower COP of 3 does not hold as much > interest. > > If you look at the falling edge of the waveform you will see an inflexion > point. High temperatures above that location are generated as a result of > positive feedback with a the loop gain of greater than 1. This causes a > bowed shape where the temperature wants to stay elevated. At the inflexion > point the gain becomes less than 1 and stable operation ensues. > > The driven portion of the waveform behaves in a similar manner. This is a > bit less evident due to the masking from the input power. Initially the > loop gain is less than 1 with a very low COP if held at the operation > point. But, to get the good performance, drive is continued at a level > that leads to the unstable state which is when the loop gain is 1 or more. > An inflection point shows up when instability is reached. > > Enough for now, > > Dave > > >
[Vo]: Interesting Information Contained in Output Temperature Curve Shape
There is a wealth of information contained within the shape of the output temperature curve associated with operation of the ECAT. My spice model also demonstrates this behavior and the testers eluded to some of the important issues. It is apparent to anyone reviewing the output temperature curve that the ECAT does not behave like an ordinary resistor. The time frame over which the ECAT operates is determined to a major extent by the thermal mass of the device and that is why the earlier CATs operated for variable periods within the SSM(Self Sustaining Mode). For some reason the skeptics do not understand this issue and make a big deal out of the relatively rapid cycle period of the latest test unit. You can expect this parameter to change repeatedly as the design is modified into the future. I want to point out an important feature revealed by the output power curve. This curve can be found in the released paper on page 27 as plot 8. When positive feedback is active, the resulting temperature curve has a well defined characteristic. Most of the runs that I have done with my model are when the COP of the ECAT is usefully high. Of course COP of 6 falls into the category, while the lower COP of 3 does not hold as much interest. If you look at the falling edge of the waveform you will see an inflexion point. High temperatures above that location are generated as a result of positive feedback with a the loop gain of greater than 1. This causes a bowed shape where the temperature wants to stay elevated. At the inflexion point the gain becomes less than 1 and stable operation ensues. The driven portion of the waveform behaves in a similar manner. This is a bit less evident due to the masking from the input power. Initially the loop gain is less than 1 with a very low COP if held at the operation point. But, to get the good performance, drive is continued at a level that leads to the unstable state which is when the loop gain is 1 or more. An inflection point shows up when instability is reached. Enough for now, Dave
