Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Tue, 10 May 2011 07:31:34 -0700: Hi, [snip] Yes - that is exactly why I mentioned a particular organic Rankine cycle Turbine which can provide close to 15% thermal efficiency at 500 C : http://www.infinityturbine.com/ORC/ORC_Waste_Heat_Turbine.html There are others, but the Stirling is in a lower range of efficiency. Since Infinity Turbine is obviously in production now, there is not wait on their end. At 500 C, Carnot = 61%. Surely a reasonable fraction of that can be attained without too much difficulty? Fission reactors run at about 300 - 350 C. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
Original-Nachricht Datum: Mon, 9 May 2011 21:20:04 -0400 Von: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Betreff: Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity Years ago a lot of money was put into OTEC generation, which has very small temperature differences. Those techniques could be revived. Yes, why not. But please consider the practical efficiency: 3%. That is a value you reach also with thermoelectric elements. The theoretically highest value you may reach with OREC is around 6% (having sea water at 26/6 degrees C). But it is unclear if one day someone will reach these 6%. If I remember it correctly, Rossi wanted to guarantee 6 times more heat than input power. Thats 16%, much higher than 3 or 6%. So, it will not work. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
Hi, If I recall correctly Rossi already mentioned coupling his device with a Stirling engine, which only needs a hot and cold side. The Stirling engine can then be used with a linear generator to generate electricity. These Stirling engines/generators are already used on a small scale (in the Netherlands) in Central Heating/Boiler systems (e.g. Remeha, Vaillant) to produce 1 - 5 kW electricity. Stirling engines/generators are also used in the focal point of large parabolic mirrors in the US for generating electricity. Kind regards, MoB
Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
Angela Kemmler wrote: Yes, why not. But please consider the practical efficiency: 3%. That is a value you reach also with thermoelectric elements. I believe it is more like 10% these days. I am assuming that rapid progress in thermoelectricity will be made, in response to cold fusion. As I explained in the book, this will be similar to progress in hard disks that came about in response the microcomputer. The microcomputer opened up new markets for peripherals such as small hard disks. Cold fusion will open up new markets for many peripherals. If I remember it correctly, Rossi wanted to guarantee 6 times more heat than input power. Thats 16%, much higher than 3 or 6%. So, it will not work. This is just a matter of engineering. Rossi's device can run with no input at all. It is reportedly dangerous in that mode, but in any case I'm sure the control current can be reduced to a minimum, perhaps 1%. Development on Rossi's device has hardly begun. Whatever practical limits and problems it now has, they will soon be overcome. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
Yes - that is exactly why I mentioned a particular organic Rankine cycle Turbine which can provide close to 15% thermal efficiency at 500 C : http://www.infinityturbine.com/ORC/ORC_Waste_Heat_Turbine.html There are others, but the Stirling is in a lower range of efficiency. Since Infinity Turbine is obviously in production now, there is not wait on their end. As for the TEG - there is no thermoelectric generator available as a commercial item which will guaranteed 5% efficiency today. Wiki says the best is 3%. Even at 3% you get no guarantee, and they fail easily. Rossi knows not waste his time with thermoelectrics, which BTW was his most recent and glaring failure to deliver. His vaunted TEGs - built at US taxpayer expense, were a gigantic disappointment - since Rossi claimed to get 20+ %, but in actual testing averaged 1%. That should be a warning of what to expect from the E-Cat, as well. Jones. -Original Message- From: Angela Kemmler JR: Years ago a lot of money was put into OTEC generation, which has very small temperature differences. Those techniques could be revived. Yes, why not. But please consider the practical efficiency: 3%. That is a value you reach also with thermoelectric elements. The theoretically highest value you may reach with OREC is around 6% (having sea water at 26/6 degrees C). But it is unclear if one day someone will reach these 6%. If I remember it correctly, Rossi wanted to guarantee 6 times more heat than input power. That's 16%, much higher than 3 or 6%. So, it will not work. -- attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
Jones Beene wrote: As for the TEG - there is no thermoelectric generator available as a commercial item which will guaranteed 5% efficiency today. Wiki says the best is 3%. Even at 3% you get no guarantee, and they fail easily. Here is a commercial TEG that is 5.4% efficient: http://ect2007.its.org/system/files/u1/pdf/30.pdf This group, Zorbas et al., have published some other papers about TEG that look interesting. Rossi knows not waste his time with thermoelectrics, which BTW was his most recent and glaring failure to deliver. His vaunted TEGs - built at US taxpayer expense, were a gigantic disappointment - since Rossi claimed to get 20+ %, but in actual testing averaged 1%. That should be a warning of what to expect from the E-Cat, as well. That is a biased sample. You should look at the totality of Rossi's work, which has been mainly successful. You should also look at the totality of Ni-H and Pd-D cold fusion studies. That should be a warning that you are excessively pessimistic and strangely biased against Rossi. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
-Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell Jones Beene wrote: As for the TEG - there is no thermoelectric generator available as a commercial item which will guaranteed 5% efficiency today. Wiki says the best is 3%. Even at 3% you get no guarantee, and they fail easily. JR: Here is a commercial TEG that is 5.4% efficient: http://ect2007.its.org/system/files/u1/pdf/30.pdf JB: No. Again, you seem to seldom read the papers you cite for proof. This paper speculates on a part which is not being made anymore, and AFAIK Melcor the maker of this part - went belly-up, and was bought by Laird. Laird apparently does not make any TEG modules at all - only cooling. Would you drop the technology if it really worked? Ergo, it seems that there is no commercial part. Only a second-rate paper making unsubstantiated claims. In summary, the paper you cite makes an estimate, based on a mathematical model which projects from temperatures which are off-spec for the original part - which is no longer in production. This proves nothing except it did not work well enough to keep it in production. JB: Rossi knows not waste his time with thermoelectrics, which BTW was his most recent and glaring failure to deliver. His vaunted TEGs - built at US taxpayer expense, were a gigantic disappointment - since Rossi claimed to get 20+ %, but in actual testing averaged 1%. That should be a warning of what to expect from the E-Cat, as well. JR: That is a biased sample. You should look at the totality of Rossi's work, which has been mainly successful. JB: Oh my! LOL - you must mean the infamous Petrodragon work :) Where is the mainly successful work from Rossi? In fact, has not the guy not been mostly a failure for his entire career? In fact, does not this entire Defkalion Green Technology thing have pump and dump written all over it ? It is completely possible that Rossi was hand-picked by the Greek scammers as a patsy for a sophisticated pump and dump stock IPO, since he was exactly what they were looking for - and could back up with experiment the kind of technology that gets media attention, which it did - and which they can turn into a billion Euro IPO scam this fall. Or sooner. Look for the IPO in July, along with a staged demo of a less than one MW unit. The ironic thing is - the Greeks do not care if it works or not, only that they can get enough media exposure to sell out the IPO. Did you see the interview? Scary characters in my appraisal. The double irony is the technology may actually work ! when all that the Greek scammers need is a successor to the GWE scam. How quickly we forget. Genesis World Energy could be the model stock scam for Defkalion. Where is Chipotle pickle (who uncovered the GWE scam) when we need him? Jones
Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
Jones Beene wrote: Where is the mainly successful work from Rossi? His biofuel Diesel engines have evidently made him a lot of money. In fact, has not the guy not been mostly a failure for his entire career? Mostly measured how? If you are tallying up the number of failed attempts versus successful ones, every scientist, inventor and programmer is a failure. That metric makes no sense. The ironic thing is - the Greeks do not care if it works or not, only that they can get enough media exposure to sell out the IPO. Did you see the interview? Scary characters in my appraisal. The double irony is the technology may actually work ! when all that the Greek scammers need is a successor to the GWE scam. How quickly we forget. Genesis World Energy could be the model stock scam for Defkalion. This is a public forum, easily accessible to anyone on the Internet. Unless you know of some specific evidence that people are engaged in criminal activity, I strongly recommend you refrain from making wild and unsupported allegations here. You may not get in trouble, but you could cause lots of problems for innocent people. If you do have evidence of a scam, I suggest you contact the authorities in Greece. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
Hi, On 10-5-2011 19:19, Jed Rothwell wrote: Jones Beene wrote: As for the TEG - there is no thermoelectric generator available as a commercial item which will guaranteed 5% efficiency today. Wiki says the best is 3%. Even at 3% you get no guarantee, and they fail easily. Here is a commercial TEG that is 5.4% efficient: http://ect2007.its.org/system/files/u1/pdf/30.pdf This group, Zorbas et al., have published some other papers about TEG that look interesting. Jed, forget about these TEGs for now, in essence they are Peltier-elements which are used in opposite order and not efficient at all. You need something that is able to take full advantage of the Seebeck effect; sofar I didn't see any of these yet. Kind regards, MoB
Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
I never could draw a distinction between a scam and shrewd and adroit business practices. On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Jones Beene wrote: Where is the mainly successful work from Rossi? His biofuel Diesel engines have evidently made him a lot of money. In fact, has not the guy not been mostly a failure for his entire career? Mostly measured how? If you are tallying up the number of failed attempts versus successful ones, every scientist, inventor and programmer is a failure. That metric makes no sense. The ironic thing is - the Greeks do not care if it works or not, only that they can get enough media exposure to sell out the IPO. Did you see the interview? Scary characters in my appraisal. The double irony is the technology may actually work ! when all that the Greek scammers need is a successor to the GWE scam. How quickly we forget. Genesis World Energy could be the model stock scam for Defkalion. This is a public forum, easily accessible to anyone on the Internet. Unless you know of some specific evidence that people are engaged in criminal activity, I strongly recommend you refrain from making wild and unsupported allegations here. You may not get in trouble, but you could cause lots of problems for innocent people. If you do have evidence of a scam, I suggest you contact the authorities in Greece. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
Hi, On 10-5-2011 22:04, Axil Axil wrote: I never could draw a distinction between a scam and shrewd and adroit business practices. Well the dictionaries are quite clear about this: Definitions of scam 1. [n] - a fraudulent business scheme Definitions of adroit 1. [adj] - skillful (or showing skill) in adapting means to ends 2. [adj] - quick or skillful or adept in action or thought shrewd[ adj.] showing good judgement; wise: a shrewd man Kind regards, MoB
Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
MoB you must be an idealist. The main and some cynics say the only goal of business is to make money. Skillfully adapting means to making money does not necessarily imply meeting the needs and expectations of customers. Today, the overriding mandate of sound business practice is to influence the politicos as much as practicable to eliminate as many business regulations as they can manage to avoid legal entanglements (aka going to jail). Consumer protection and associated regulations is seen in the business community as a restraint of free trade which stifles the economy as a whole and their particular business activities specifically. Intense competition and the forces of natural selection will force the most well meaning CEO to acclimate to this lowest common denominator of business behavior in the due course of time. Kind regards, Axil On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Man on Bridges manonbrid...@aim.comwrote: Hi, On 10-5-2011 22:04, Axil Axil wrote: I never could draw a distinction between a scam and shrewd and adroit business practices. Well the dictionaries are quite clear about this: Definitions of scam 1. [n] - a fraudulent business scheme Definitions of adroit 1. [adj] - skillful (or showing skill) in adapting means to ends 2. [adj] - quick or skillful or adept in action or thought shrewd[ adj.] showing good judgement; wise: “a shrewd man” Kind regards, MoB
[Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
Here is a (loud) video of a heat conversion scheme for low temperature input, which clearly the E-Cat can handle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atu00VDDXAI Message: In the future of off-grid high-tech, the steam cycle is probably archaic anyway (for small devices)... You can get decent efficiency without it... It is possible that Rossi could self-power already if he had the skill-set and free time to go that route (he does not). For the grid operator - the comparative cost of lots of water (free) makes steam the obvious choice over a refrigerant - but not elsewhere. Jones attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:You do NOT need dry steam to get electricity
Years ago a lot of money was put into OTEC generation, which has very small temperature differences. Those techniques could be revived. However, as I said, based on previous Ni-H experiments there is no reason to think high temperatures will be a problem. - Jed
