Re: [VO]:Re: Magnetic effect on water
In reply to R Stiffler's message of Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:06:18 -0600: Hi, [snip] >Blank>>We were able to drop out some white powder precipitate one a single >occasion some time back. >>>We had forgotten to turn off the test unit over the lunch hour. Never >>>able to reproduce the event in our steel test tank. The municipal source >of our water supply could >>>have had been hypo-chlorinated that day... or some chemical agent >>>to reduce manganese.. or visa-verse. Using a plexiglas tank with aluminum >frame and municipal >>>chlorinated water would occasionally produce the precipitate and severely >oxidize the aluminum. > >R.C. > >I have not duplicated you setup, yet I have never seem Cl released as a >White precipitate? If chlorine in the water oxidized the Al, you might get a white Al compound as precipitate (chlorides, oxides, hydroxides, aluminates, or a mixture). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/ Competition provides the motivation, Cooperation provides the means.
RE: [VO]:Re: Magnetic effect on water
Blank>>We were able to drop out some white powder precipitate one a single occasion some time back. >>We had forgotten to turn off the test unit over the lunch hour. Never >>able to reproduce the event in our steel test tank. The municipal source of our water supply could >>have had been hypo-chlorinated that day... or some chemical agent >>to reduce manganese.. or visa-verse. Using a plexiglas tank with aluminum frame and municipal >>chlorinated water would occasionally produce the precipitate and severely oxidize the aluminum. R.C. I have not duplicated you setup, yet I have never seem Cl released as a White precipitate? You mention 'manganese' is this part of your electrolyte? If not I might suggest you start drinking bottled water or maybe a good Brandy :-) -Original Message- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 7:28 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [VO]:Re: Magnetic effect on water Michael Foster wrote.. >Somewhere on Bill's endlessly large website is an experiment showing that exposure to a magnetic field increases the viscosity of water. This is such an easy thing to test that I tried it. It really works. At first I thought that this is mysterious and inexplicable. Then it occurred to me that since water molecules are electric dipoles, they would be subject to the Lenz effect when in a magnetic field, i.e., they would resist a change in orientation. Since the normal random thermal motion of the molecules would be more or less restricted, depending on the strength of the magnetic field, the rise in temperature of the water to ambient would be suppressed. This might also explain the precipitate. The normal Brownian motion caused by thermal agitation would also be suppressed, resulting in the water's inability to keep small paricles in suspension. The water would have to have some fine particulate impurity in the first place for this to happen. And here's some speculation: Suppose you place a beaker full of water inside a larger container with a non-polar liquid. Expose these to a strong magnetic field. Would the water become colder and the non-polar liquid hotter? Anti-entropic? Naaah. Howdy Michael, We were able to drop out some white powder precipitate one a single occasion some time back.We had forgotten to turn off the test unit over the lunch hour. Never able to reproduce the event in our steel test tank. The municipal source of our water supply could have had been hypo-chlorinated that day... or some chemical agent to reduce manganese.. or visa-verse. Using a plexiglas tank with aluminum frame and municipal chlorinated water would occasionally produce the precipitate and severely oxidize the aluminum. You idea of using a non-polar liquid is intriguing. Glad we have been giving the next test rig modular design theme some time for input like your speculation. If you would like to see a pic of the present setup I can send you a pdf. Richard Blank Bkgrd.gif Description: GIF image
RE: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water
Reading the link for sure has convinced me I have "Fictional Water", I guess that explains why it leaves the beaker at a rate of 20mL a day when not covered :-) I thought Jones had the key and samples are now stabilizing, this may answer the 'White' particles, but I see no reason, even after reading the wonderfully biased article that explains the temperature observations. -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:03 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water On 11/14/06, Jones Beene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from > the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower > surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the > surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. We should not forget the lesson learned from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywater Terry
Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water
On 11/14/06, Jones Beene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. We should not forget the lesson learned from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywater Terry
RE: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water
>>Can we assume that the temperature of the magnetized sample is >>always less than ambient? That is correct and over a number of tests varied in the range of (-.5 to -1.6) C' below ambient. I did of course assure that this was just not a location anomaly. The last series was conducted in a fume hood with vents off. >>As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from >>the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower >>surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the >>surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. Yes, after you mentioned this I looked back and indeed these beakers were used in some prior electrolysis work with electrolyte containing Boron. You may have answered the whole question "Poor Lab Work" Yet the temperature difference is my prime interest and must start with new glassware and will know by the weekend if indeed this is where it's coming from, then? -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:38 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water - Original Message - From: "Dr. Stiffler" > Repeatedly here is what I have found. The beaker within the > center of the ring magnet, does not reach equilibrium with > ambient temperature (yet the magnet itself does). The beaker > that is one meter away from the other setup, does reach > equilibrium with ambient. Can we assume that the temperature of the magnetized sample is always less than ambient? The implication would be that the magnet provides some extra "structure", and structure is generally indicative an anti-entropic ordering, so there is some energy withdrawn from ambient which is tied up in the ordering itself ? I say "extra" structure because liquid water has plenty of hidden structure already, but there is debate on what that structure consists of. Older textbooks used to say there is base-level hidden sea of tetrahedrons - little pyramids with triangular bases, formed when each water molecule connects to four others. The hexagon doesn't show until phase change. That old notion is likely incorrect, according to Martin Chaplin's fine web site on water and he goes into great detail about macro-structures. http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ Here is his page on electric and magnetic effects of water: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/magnetic.html As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. Jones
Re: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water
On Tuesday 14 November 2006 20:37, Jones Beene wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Dr. Stiffler" > > > Repeatedly here is what I have found. The beaker within the > > center of the ring magnet, does not reach equilibrium with > > ambient temperature (yet the magnet itself does). The beaker > > that is one meter away from the other setup, does reach > > equilibrium with ambient. > > Can we assume that the temperature of the magnetized sample is > always less than ambient? > > The implication would be that the magnet provides some extra > "structure", and structure is generally indicative an > anti-entropic ordering, so there is some energy withdrawn from > ambient which is tied up in the ordering itself ? > > I say "extra" structure because liquid water has plenty of hidden > structure already, but there is debate on what that structure > consists of. Older textbooks used to say there is base-level > hidden sea of tetrahedrons - little pyramids with triangular > bases, formed when each water molecule connects to four others. > The hexagon doesn't show until phase change. That old notion is > likely incorrect, according to Martin Chaplin's fine web site on > water and he goes into great detail about macro-structures. > http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ > > Here is his page on electric and magnetic effects of water: > http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/magnetic.html > > As for the white precipitate, which could be calcium leached from > the beaker - this could be due to the extra "wetting" of a lower > surface tension in the magnetized water. Magnetic fields lower the > surface tensions of H2O by up to 8% according to Chaplin. > > Jones A little qual and quant analyses might be in order here, especially if the precipitate is reproducable. It would help immensely to know just what that white precipitate is if only to eliminate endless speculation. By the way, distilled water may still have solutes in it in small quantities, and glasswear might not be scrupulousely clean. Use 'USP' distilled water instead of ordinary 'distilled' water from the supermarket. A bit more expensive but lends the essential reproducability. YeeGadd, I'm sounding like my old quantitative professor from my days at university. Also clean out the glasswear with an acid-dichromate solution and rinse with some of the USP water. Use gloves and goggles with the acid-dichromate solution. You may or may not be able to get that solution, or even USP water due to the present legal climate around the world unless you are in Africa which is free-er in placesor in Russia. Standing Bear
RE: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water
Interesting. I have read much of what is on the net and a ton of old texts, yet my work was an off shoot of the effects a magnetic field might have on electrolysis. Should I receive an invitation and I can slip away from the bandits and bootleggers, it might be interesting to compare notes. -Original Message- From: RC Macaulay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:03 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: Re: Magnetic effect on water Dr. Stiffler wrote, >I have a question for the group and will follow up with additional coverage > of the research that brings questions like these to the forefront. > > Assume (2) 150mL Pyrex lab beakers filled with distilled, de-ionized > water. > Seal both tops of the beakers with Al foil to reduce evaporation. Place > one > beaker in the center of a ring magnet (we used ones taken from audio > woofers), the rating of which is not relevant at this point. > > Place the second beaker at least a meter from the beaker and the ring > magnet. Now let both sit undisturbed for 24 hours. > > Repeatedly here is what I have found. The beaker within the center of the > ring magnet, does not reach equilibrium with ambient temperature (yet the > magnet itself does). The beaker that is one meter away from the other > setup, > does reach equilibrium with ambient. > > Additionally the beaker within the magnet has a white precipitate where > the > other one does not. > > Before I go further, has anyone done anything similar? > > *I do not subscribe to the effects of magnetic field on pure water, yet I > now have question on that understanding. > > Thanks... Howdy Stiffler, Much studies around including some pretty far out stuff in the " ORMUS" areas. WE have a research test setup at our Weimar Texas shop. Our next series of tests will start a log on the use of magnets and solenoids both for flows and water vortex studies. Richard
