Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid
I'd use a variable blade, fixed throttle turbine - ideally without a condenser for space and weight reasons (although just 400C may be too wastefull in terms of water consumption - higher temperatures would be much better). Safety will be a problem. We have to keep exhaust temperatures well below 100C at any point touchable from the outside - so planing the expansion path would be tricky but probably not impossible within the boudaries of a standard footprint. It would have to be a serial hybrid, of course. Running such a slowly responding source directly would be ok for a locomotive that can just dump whatever heat it doesn't need through a chiney and doesn't have to stop at a red light every couple of seconds - but not with a car. We built prototype hybrids with gas turbines more than a decade or so ago - so principally, yes, it would work. And it wouldn't even have to be significantly more expensive than a Chevy Volt (but we'd need a larger battery). Despite all that, I don't see this technology in any car soon (provided it exists). In my daydreams I rather see it as a large scale, extremely cheap heat source that could make the energetic disadvantages of hydrogen disappear - and making a hydrogen car/plane/cement-factory/blast-furness/whatever is probably much easier to do than trying to cope with the disadvantages of a slow/low temperture heatsource directly.
Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid
In reply to David Roberson's message of Sun, 5 Feb 2012 23:28:24 -0500 (EST): Hi, I agree that an effective radiator would be ideal, however at least initially a combination of partial venting and partial radiation may be needed. > >It seems logical that operators of vehicles that use LENR devices for power >would need a radiator to condense the steam back into water. The efficiency >of the system is better with the low pressures achieved by condensing the >steam and not many would want to have to refill the coolant as often as would >be required to go long distances. Also, if coolants other than water are >used, it would be difficult to release them into the atmosphere. > >A closed water system appears ideal and the LENR device could be running in >idle when the vehicle is not in use to keep the water from freezing during >cold periods since the cost of doing so would be negligible. > >Dave > > > >-Original Message- >From: mixent >To: vortex-l >Sent: Sun, Feb 5, 2012 8:48 pm >Subject: Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid > > >In reply to Alain Sepeda's message of Mon, 6 Feb 2012 00:39:01 +0100: >i, >snip] >for me it seems turbines are preferred, but the problem of radiators stay >I considered the option of not using a radiator at all, and just dumping the >pent steam into the environment. A quick back of the envelope calculation >eveals a (very rough) amount of water usage of 20 L / hr, which is not too much >o carry on board. A 40 L "gas tank" would hold enough water for about 2 hours, >fter which it would need to be refilled with a garden hose. Any radiator used >ould extend this. >This assumes a high temp. of 400 ºC, and a Carnot efficiency of 57%). >egards, >Robin van Spaandonk >http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid
In reply to David Roberson's message of Sun, 5 Feb 2012 23:20:08 -0500 (EST): Hi, [snip] > >A large battery is a bad thing to use in a vehicle as it tends to be very >expensive, heavy, and takes up a great deal of space. I am optimistic that >future improvements to LENR devices will lead to faster system response times. >Problems such as these are exactly what good engineering and science are able >to resolve. > >Dave I agree that a large battery is bad thing, however that's not what I said. Precisely because it is constantly being recharged, it can be kept fairly small. As for improved responsiveness, you may have to wait till my device gets built and configured to convert particle energy directly into electric current. Then you could have a system which goes from go to whoa in milliseconds. ;) > > >-Original Message- >From: mixent >To: vortex-l >Sent: Sun, Feb 5, 2012 8:30 pm >Subject: Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid > > >In reply to Alain Sepeda's message of Mon, 6 Feb 2012 00:39:01 +0100: >i, >The trick is to have a hybrid with turbine running at constant speed to top up > small set of batteries that power an electric drive train with regenerative >raking. >The Chevy Volt may be a good starting point. >>Just to starts discussion on How LENR will fit cars > >I have found some interesting comment in a discussion of Stirling Hybrid >car... >http://ideas.4brad.com/archives/94.html > >talking about low efficiency and weight of stirling compared to usual IC >talking about better performance of turbines, but sluggish to accelerate... >talking about the need of radiators to evacuate heat that in evacuated by >exhaust in IC engines > >there seems to have been a test of a Stirling version of Gran Torino in 77 > >for me it seems turbines are preferred, but the problem of radiators stay > >your comments awaited >egards, >Robin van Spaandonk >http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid
It seems logical that operators of vehicles that use LENR devices for power would need a radiator to condense the steam back into water. The efficiency of the system is better with the low pressures achieved by condensing the steam and not many would want to have to refill the coolant as often as would be required to go long distances. Also, if coolants other than water are used, it would be difficult to release them into the atmosphere. A closed water system appears ideal and the LENR device could be running in idle when the vehicle is not in use to keep the water from freezing during cold periods since the cost of doing so would be negligible. Dave -Original Message- From: mixent To: vortex-l Sent: Sun, Feb 5, 2012 8:48 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid In reply to Alain Sepeda's message of Mon, 6 Feb 2012 00:39:01 +0100: i, snip] for me it seems turbines are preferred, but the problem of radiators stay I considered the option of not using a radiator at all, and just dumping the pent steam into the environment. A quick back of the envelope calculation eveals a (very rough) amount of water usage of 20 L / hr, which is not too much o carry on board. A 40 L "gas tank" would hold enough water for about 2 hours, fter which it would need to be refilled with a garden hose. Any radiator used ould extend this. This assumes a high temp. of 400 ºC, and a Carnot efficiency of 57%). egards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid
A large battery is a bad thing to use in a vehicle as it tends to be very expensive, heavy, and takes up a great deal of space. I am optimistic that future improvements to LENR devices will lead to faster system response times. Problems such as these are exactly what good engineering and science are able to resolve. Dave -Original Message- From: mixent To: vortex-l Sent: Sun, Feb 5, 2012 8:30 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid In reply to Alain Sepeda's message of Mon, 6 Feb 2012 00:39:01 +0100: i, The trick is to have a hybrid with turbine running at constant speed to top up small set of batteries that power an electric drive train with regenerative raking. The Chevy Volt may be a good starting point. >Just to starts discussion on How LENR will fit cars I have found some interesting comment in a discussion of Stirling Hybrid car... http://ideas.4brad.com/archives/94.html talking about low efficiency and weight of stirling compared to usual IC talking about better performance of turbines, but sluggish to accelerate... talking about the need of radiators to evacuate heat that in evacuated by exhaust in IC engines there seems to have been a test of a Stirling version of Gran Torino in 77 for me it seems turbines are preferred, but the problem of radiators stay your comments awaited egards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid
In reply to Alain Sepeda's message of Mon, 6 Feb 2012 00:39:01 +0100: Hi, [snip] I wrote: (This assumes a high temp. of 400 ºC, and a Carnot efficiency of 57%). Oops, that should be 43%, which increases the water requirement to 36 L /hr. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid
In reply to Alain Sepeda's message of Mon, 6 Feb 2012 00:39:01 +0100: Hi, [snip] >for me it seems turbines are preferred, but the problem of radiators stay I considered the option of not using a radiator at all, and just dumping the spent steam into the environment. A quick back of the envelope calculation reveals a (very rough) amount of water usage of 20 L / hr, which is not too much to carry on board. A 40 L "gas tank" would hold enough water for about 2 hours, after which it would need to be refilled with a garden hose. Any radiator used would extend this. (This assumes a high temp. of 400 ºC, and a Carnot efficiency of 57%). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid
In reply to Alain Sepeda's message of Mon, 6 Feb 2012 00:39:01 +0100: Hi, The trick is to have a hybrid with turbine running at constant speed to top up a small set of batteries that power an electric drive train with regenerative braking. The Chevy Volt may be a good starting point. >Just to starts discussion on How LENR will fit cars > >I have found some interesting comment in a discussion of Stirling Hybrid >car... >http://ideas.4brad.com/archives/94.html > >talking about low efficiency and weight of stirling compared to usual IC >talking about better performance of turbines, but sluggish to accelerate... >talking about the need of radiators to evacuate heat that in evacuated by >exhaust in IC engines > >there seems to have been a test of a Stirling version of Gran Torino in 77 > >for me it seems turbines are preferred, but the problem of radiators stay > >your comments awaited Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Idea: Using Stirling/turbine for car LENR Hybrid
just to complete the discussion I have found a company that sell stirling with fair efficiency ( 27-28%) http://www.stirlingbiopower.com/STIRLING/BASSE.swf formerly http://www.stmpower.com/ it seems that their engine have been used in some ford prototypes, but for painting exhaust treatment... seems huge 2012/2/6 Alain Sepeda > Just to starts discussion on How LENR will fit cars > >
