Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD
At 5:16 PM 3/6/5, RC Macaulay wrote: [snip] As we continue to test various parabolic shaped segments in our designs for vacuum induction mixer feeding of products into process streams there are certain shapes of 3450 rpm speed rotating members that produce extremely tight vortexes in the clear plexiglas test tank. The vortex forms at the bottom of the tank and extends up to the face of the rotating member. Observing the vortex hunt around the rotating member, it randomly strikes the member.. NEVER at the center but at the discharge orifices on the periphery. This event occurs at around 20 sec. intervals and is quite visible causing the entire unit with submersible motor ( 2HP) to jump on its sliding mount. Entrained air in the water is also sheared off the member. Beside the main vertical vortex created, there are a host of free spinning pups released that are visible (contain an air center) for a short duration that bounce off all four walls in every direction horizontal to diagonal in orientation plus an occasional glowing bubble ( may only be reflection on the bubble from the light below the tank) [snip] The vortex is the fluid which rotates. The thing striking the rotating member is the vortex core which is probably composed of near vacuum water vapor. The jump is probably caused by a sudden drop in pressure on the rotor combined with a rapid fluctuation in resistance to torque. You seem to be describing phenomena which would be expected from such a device. A clear description of the objectives of the design and the problems to be solved is needed. It appears the objective of the machine is to mix. Are there other objectives? How will you measure the performance achieved by the machine? It appears the problems to be solved are (1) cavitation erosion and (2) the jump caused when the vacuum core strikes the rotor. Regards, Horace Heffner
Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD
Edmund Storms wrote: So I ask, what is the basic process in the PAGD effect? For example, how can moving ions extract energy from their surroundings? Why must the ions and/or electrons only move in a certain way, as caused by the unique applied voltage? I think the point is that the Correas themselves do not know yet, so the only way to investigate this phenomenon is to build a slavishly exact copies of the original gadget, and then begin experimenting with it. If the Correas or someone else working with the PAGD had a general theory then other people could reproduce the effect with a variety of different machines and configurations. This is exactly what happened with transistors. Between 1948 and 1952 a comprehensive theory was developed, and this made it much easier to reproduce the effect even if you did not know every detail of the Bell Labs protocols. Other companies and soon developed alternative methods. However it was still a big advantage to learn the details from Bell Labs, because they had solved many of the mechanical problems that were not directly related to theory, such as how to make extremely pure germanium. This was done with the zone-refining technique invented by Pfann and Scaff. Shockley, who was in charge of transistor research, try to prevent Pfann and Scaff from developing their technique because he thought it was a waste of time. - Jed
Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD
Jed Rothwell wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: So I ask, what is the basic process in the PAGD effect? For example, how can moving ions extract energy from their surroundings? Why must the ions and/or electrons only move in a certain way, as caused by the unique applied voltage? I think the point is that the Correas themselves do not know yet, so the only way to investigate this phenomenon is to build a slavishly exact copies of the original gadget, and then begin experimenting with it. The problem is that it is almost impossible to build an exact duplicate of a complex device. Without guidance based on even a crude model, it is impossible to know which of the many variables are important and which can be ignored. For example, using the cold fusion effect about which I have some experience, it was impossible to duplicate the F-P work exactly because F-P did not know most of what was important, even when they finally revealed what they had done. Even after years of work, attention was still directed to the physical and chemical properties of bulk palladium. Only recently has it become clear that the action is in surface deposits. Now the number of variables can be reduced and redirected to those that really matter. At this point, we do not know whether the energy extraction process in the PAGD apparatus occurs in the plasma, in the electrode surface, or in the attached components through which unusual waveforms pass. If, as Mike suggests, the apparatus acts as an antenna that picks up energy from aether waves, then where is this antenna located within the apparatus. What aspect of the apparatus is important to allow such extraction? Suppose the plasma is only required to create the required waveform experienced by elections passing through the connecting wires, similar to the way normal antenna work. Too many variables are available to allow an exact duplication, even using the patents. That is why the Correas must show that their apparatus actually does what they claim, because only that device has achieved all the known and unknown features that are important. Regards, Ed
Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD
Mike Carrell writes: The discussion of replication of the PAGD technology is getting a bit wild. All I have said is that the efforts at replication by Jeff contain gross errors. That's true. But your messages also indicated there is a lot unexplained art in the PAGD, with things that the Correas do simply because they work. Other people have said that, too. There is nothing wrong with that. Many industries and sciences are like that. Electrochemistry is full of protocols you have to learn from the master. If the PAGD is like this, then it will probably need a hands-on teaching session before a replication works. When someone follows the recipe in the patents, and the circuits given, and calibration means shown, and explores the glow discharge range indicated, and fails to see the PAGD discharge, then one can start mumbling about mysteries. It one sees the discharge, plenty of mysterious mumbling will follow. So far as I know no one has done this, they all do something different, and then talk about failure. True again. And this is not fair to the Correas. To this point is Ed Storm's position that the effect originates in certain deposits on the surfaces of cathodes and loading of bulk palladium is irrelevant. Ed has not yet identified these, or shown how to make lots of cathodes. Touche. - Jed
Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD
Dr. Storms comments intrigue me . As we continue to test various parabolic shaped segments in our designs for vacuum induction mixer feeding of products into process streams there are certain shapes of3450 rpmspeedrotating membersthat produce extremely " tight" vortexes in the clear plexiglas test tank. The vortex forms at the bottom of the tank and extends up to the face of the rotating member. Observingthe vortex " hunt" around the rotating member, it randomly " strikes" the member.. NEVER at the center but at the discharge orificeson the periphery. This event occurs ataround 20 sec. intervals and is quite visible causing the entire unit with submersible motor ( 2HP) to " jump" on its sliding mount. Entrained air in the water is also sheared off the member. Beside the main vertical vortex created, there are a host of free spinning " pups" released that are visible (contain an air center) for a short duration that bounce off all four walls in every direction horizontal to diagonalin orientation plus an occasional glowing bubble ( may only be reflection on the bubble from the light below the tank) Examining some rotating members that have been in service feeding 12-15 % hypo show classic cavitation pitting near the orifice at the periphery of the member. Of interest .. the plexiglas tank bottom ( 1/2 inch thick) shows a slightly indented circle ( smooth, not pitted)of 2 inches diameter and several mm deep which may mean some plexiglas material has been removed by action of the vortex. We also reversed the motor rotation to run counterclockwise ( as a northern hemisphere vortex). The vortex cone was much wider in diameter. The clockwise rotation produces a much tighter vortex column and appears to exceed the speed of the rotating member at times . This view from beneath the glass tank also allows us tosee the vortex strike the member. This information may be of interest because the event is easily replicated each test. We hoped to have the 10,000 rpmtest unitwith 15 hp VFD drive ready by now but, vibration problems require dynamic balancing of the components , plus the heat generated in the oil filled annulus is a problem. We have also been advised the higher speed unit may produce some uv andgamma radiation. Perhaps some of our learned Vortexians may comment on magnetics or radiation we may encounter and/ or measure. Our test facilities are not "laboratory grade" but a 3450 rpm unit is available for study by the serious Vortexian. Richard Blank Bkgrd.gif
Transistors, replication, and PAGD
Jed favors us with excellent snippets of the history of technology to illustrate contemporary situations. In that spirit, some comments. Transistors have their roots in very early radio detectors, the 'cats whisker' and a lump of lead oxide, or galena ore. The 'cats whisker' was a sharpened wire on a pivoting mount, enabling the user to fish around on the surface of the galena crystal to find a 'hot spot' that was a useful rectifier. Some 20 years later, the early solid state physics gave insight into what was going on. With the early development of radar, a pressing need was the receive/transmit switch. The same antenna was used for transmitting a multi-kilowatt burst and receiving the faint reflections from aircraft. An instant switch was needed to protect the teceiver from the transmitter burst. It was found in a point contact germanium diode, a refined version of the earler 'cats whisker' detector. Wartime necessity paid for methods of refining ot get pure germanium, and mass production of mechanically stable diodes. It also paid for studies in solid state physics to understand the operation of the diode. Bell Lab's search for an electronic switch started with that diode and in essence added another sharpenend wire close to the first one, and found that current injected by that second wire could control current in the other, with amplification. It was analogus to the well know triode vacuum tube, but with important differences that had to be understood to be controlled. Mass production was essential, which depended on understanding the transistor effect well enough to know what was truly essential and what was irrelevant. I won't recap the many clever ideas that were tried to stabilize the transistor characteristics and extend life. It was many years later that the concept of the planar transistor slowly emerged in two people and converged in integrated circuits which are made by a sophisticated printing process. It also took time to mature the use of silicon instead of germanium as a substrate. Germanium transistors are still made for specific applications, and used by circuit designers who understand how to handle gremanium's characteristics. The road from the point contact transistor to integrated circuits cost untold billions and tens of thousands of man hours of work in diverse technologies. Jed has given us useful illustrations fromthe history of aviation.I recall that even after the Wright brother's flight, even after the patents were issued, even after their successful demonstration in Washington, people were still building failing airplanes after 'their own ideas'. People who followed the Wright brothers patents built airplanes that flew. There were rapid refinements in the control system used, but these were based on the essentials revealed in the Wright brother's work. In the current discussion about PAGD, Jeff cites aerospace experience. I could suggest that his deviations from the Correa's patents are equivalent to deciding that it is too much trouble to make those curved wing and propellor surfaces, that flat wings and paddle-like propellors are good enough, following common sense. This ignores the extensive wind tunnel tests that the Wrights made of different wing and propellor shapes, long before there was any computer simulation of the airflow over these complex surfaces. In the current LENR scene, it could be said that in those few episodes of sudden extreme heat release, of 'heat after death', something "right" was done and in everything else people are unwittingly and sincerely repeating mistakes. After all, if those "right" events were repeated every day in labs around the world, we would not be fretting about the DoE reports or what Scientific American has to say. It may not be true that the specific construction described in the Correa patents is of the essence, or that disclosure overcomes barriers to commercial uitlization, but nobody can say that their work is mysterious or obscure until they with competence have duplicated what is in the patents. And I do mean "duplicated", not "imitated". After long contemplation of the phenomenon, there are aspects which seem strange indeed. Why not use wall-powered supplies to provide the setup conditions instead of batteries? Years ago Paulo said such supplies were destroyed when the PAGD pulse let go. Why? I don't know. Why not make LENR cells with cathodes cut from soup cans? It's cheaper. The same can be said of the Mills work. There is one paper in the Journal of Applied Physics which purportedly duplicated a Mills experiment, without significant results. One significant parameter was different, which meant that the paper reported on an expeiment which Mills had already made with null results, not on his successful experiment. Others have found the phenomena Mills reports with apparatus that is different is some respects, butwith an understanding of
Re: Transistors, replication, and PAGD
Ed Storms wrote with his usual insight: Mike Carrell wrote: It may not be true that the specific construction described in the Correa patents is of the essence, or that disclosure overcomes barriers to commercial uitlization, but nobody can say that their work is mysterious or obscure until they with competence have duplicated what is in the patents. And I do mean duplicated, not imitated. After long contemplation of the phenomenon, there are aspects which seem strange indeed. Why not use wall-powered supplies to provide the setup conditions instead of batteries? Years ago Paulo said such supplies were destroyed when the PAGD pulse let go. Why? I don't know. Why not make LENR cells with cathodes cut from soup cans? It's cheaper. Mike, I agree, the early transistor experience is very similar to what people now suffer with cold fusion. For example, one of the major problems with early transistors was the level of required purity. Very small amounts of impurity in the Ge would cause large and unexpected changes in the electrical properties. These amounts were below the level of detection until new analytical tools were developed. The same is true of cold fusion. The active material is a very small amount of material deposited on an inert substrate, a domain that is too small to see by normal methods. Therefore, once again, new tools must be applied, in addition to a new attitude. Palladium was used initially and is still thought to be the active material by some people. However, the palladium is only an inert substrate on which the active material deposits. Once the proper deposit has been identified, the effect will be completely reproducible regardless of what is used as the inert substrate. Soup cans would work just as well, provided the proper deposits are applied. The point I'm making is that knowing the important variables is more important than simply duplicating the effect. This requires making assumptions about the basic process. In the case of the transistor, the basic process involved electron conduction. The basic process in cold fusion involves a nuclear process in a solid lattice. For flight, the basic process involves the pressure differential created by air flowing over a curved surface. In each case, success was achieved by understanding the basic process. For transistors, the conduction band became the center of attention, for cold fusion, the solid structure is important, and for flight, the pressure of flowing air is measured. ---New stuff: So I ask, what is the basic process in the PAGD effect? Excellent question to which I do not have an answer. My understanding is that the effect was found by accident while investigating Xray tubes. The Correas then checked refrences, to be found in their patents, and empirically discovered the means to evoke the effect at will and capture the energy. What is conspicuously absent from the patents and publications is a discussion of exactly what goes on in the discharge itself. A few images here and there suggest an intensive investigation. Harold Aspden, who has written extensively on aether theory, devoted a monograph to the PAGD phenomenon. There are curious annular pits around one of the electrodes, suggesting a vortex. I infer that study of the phenomenon opened doors to a new understanding of physics which has underlain their later work and monographs. One must set aside preconceptions about the nature of the aether, and conventional notions ion behavior and the like. Dr. Harold Aspden was once head of IBM's patent operations for Europe with a base in the UK. During his graduate work he found some anomalous realtionships between heat and magnetism in magnetic materials, and this set him on a lifelong investigation of the nature of aether which is set out in books, monographs, and an extensive website full of tutorial essays. You can find his discussion of PAGD at http://www.aspden.org/reports/Es8/Rep8.htm. There is little I can add to a reading of this report, which sits in a context to Aspden's larger work. For example, how can moving ions extract energy from their surroundings? Wrong question. Read the above cited report by Aspden, which may not be the whole story. Why must the ions and/or electrons only move in a certain way, as caused by the unique applied voltage? Wrong question again: see Aspden. It isn't the applied voltage itself. The effect occurs in a certain region of the generally well known current-voltage realtionship of a glow discharge, near the arc conditions. The effect cannot be triggered; one sets up the conditons and when a vortex of aether energy comes by, part of it is tapped. One can better think of the cell as a kind of antenna. The discharges occur semi-periodically at various average rates. If the rate is low, the discharges tende to be more energetic than when they are fast. How can this required motion be achieved other
