Where's Joe? (Was Re: [vox-tech] DE flame war.)
On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 09:30:05PM -0800, Robert G. Scofield wrote: This was fun to read. Nice use of simile and metaphor. This reminds of of Joe Arruda; Mr. Zen. What ever happened to him? He's out here... He came to the OpenVote LUGOD meeting (with me) a few months back, in fact. (He's down in San Jose, which is, of course, not far from where I am) -bill! ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
[vox-tech] DE flame war.
I was thinking of installing a DE on one of my computers. Don't really know much about them. Never really payed much attention. I've always used twm or Enlightenment when I wanted eye-candy. I plan on installing KDE on a test basis to see how I like it unless there are any issues why I should install Gnome instead. Any compelling reason to use Gnome instead of KDE? I definitely don't want to run a display manager, and I'd like to keep Enlightenment as a wm. I assume KDE can handle that Pete -- Save Star Trek Enterprise from extinction: http://www.saveenterprise.com GPG Fingerprint: B9F1 6CF3 47C4 7CD8 D33E 70A9 A3B9 1945 67EA 951D ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] DE flame war.
On Sun 06 Mar 05, 10:12 AM, Rod Roark [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sunday 06 March 2005 09:31 am, Peter Jay Salzman wrote: I definitely don't want to run a display manager, and I'd like to keep Enlightenment as a wm. I assume KDE can handle that You can run KDE and Gnome apps under other desktop environments. Of course they will link to big chunks of the respective libraries, so you may not gain much in terms of reducing bloatware. However the KDE and Gnome desktops include their own window managers -- I've never heard of running the KDE desktop per se under Enlightenment. The only reason why I say that is because Enlightenment has a menu option that says Support KDE desktop... Don't quite know what it means exactly. Pete -- Save Star Trek Enterprise from extinction: http://www.saveenterprise.com GPG Fingerprint: B9F1 6CF3 47C4 7CD8 D33E 70A9 A3B9 1945 67EA 951D ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] DE flame war.
On Sun 06 Mar 05, 1:18 PM, Troy Arnold [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Peter Jay Salzman wrote: Any compelling reason to use Gnome instead of KDE? Sure: Think about what happened to Galeon when the gnome project got its grubby little usability hands on it. If you get my drift on that, then there's really nothing more to say. -troy Nuff' said. I get your drift. ;) Pete -- Save Star Trek Enterprise from extinction: http://www.saveenterprise.com GPG Fingerprint: B9F1 6CF3 47C4 7CD8 D33E 70A9 A3B9 1945 67EA 951D ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] DE flame war.
On Sunday 06 March 2005 9:31 am, Peter Jay Salzman flailed at a keyboard and produced this: I was thinking of installing a DE on one of my computers. Don't really know much about them. Never really payed much attention. I've always used twm or Enlightenment when I wanted eye-candy. I plan on installing KDE on a test basis to see how I like it unless there are any issues why I should install Gnome instead. Any compelling reason to use Gnome instead of KDE? I definitely don't want to run a display manager, and I'd like to keep Enlightenment as a wm. I assume KDE can handle that I used to use Gnome; I switched to KDE about two months ago and I haven't looked back. On the other hand, I know people who have gone in exactly the opposite direction. I suspect it's all a matter of personal taste. I can't think of any compelling reason to use one or the other; I've run Gnome apps under KDE and vice versa, though they require sizable installations of their respective libraries. I've also used Enlightenment with KDE and with Gnome, and I've used Fluxbox on top of KDE as well. I didn't care for either of them personally, but, as I said, when it comes to a desktop environment, a lot of it really is just personal preference. -- Slainte, Richard S. Crawford (mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) AIM: Buffalo2K / http://www.mossroot.com You can't depend on your judgment when your imagination is out of focus. -Mark Twain GPG Public Key located at: http://www.mossroot.com/rscrawford.asc pgpYOELWK2ZJy.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] DE flame war.
on Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 10:12:24AM -0800, Rod Roark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Sunday 06 March 2005 09:31 am, Peter Jay Salzman wrote: I definitely don't want to run a display manager, and I'd like to keep Enlightenment as a wm. I assume KDE can handle that You can run KDE and Gnome apps under other desktop environments. Of course they will link to big chunks of the respective libraries, so you may not gain much in terms of reducing bloatware. However the KDE and Gnome desktops include their own window managers -- I've never heard of running the KDE desktop per se under Enlightenment. I'm not entirely up on who supports what, but, for example, WMaker can be used as the WM for both GNOME and KDE. Or could at points in past. With full support of the various DE symantics. Mind: if you'll tolerate a certain level of missing features, you can pretty much run _any_ WM within a given DE. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.comhttp://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of Gestalt don't you understand? Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. - Princess Bride signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] DE flame war.
on Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 01:18:21PM -0800, Troy Arnold ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Peter Jay Salzman wrote: Any compelling reason to use Gnome instead of KDE? Sure: Think about what happened to Galeon when the gnome project got its grubby little usability hands on it. You can follow some of that discussion on the galeon-user list. I'm a subscriber and participant. To its credit: Galeon has recovered much of the functionality lost in the 1.2 = 1.3 transition. To its debit: the Galeon dev team remain largely deaf to criticisms, exhibiting all classic signs of GNOMEitis[1]. A classic current example is tab navigation. The current tab widget doesn't allow scrolling of the tab *bar* without also cycling tabs themselves. It's as if scrolling, say, the thumbnails display in a PDF viewer jumped you through the document itself. Response: This is GtkNotebook behaviour. Um ...if the widget / widget set does _the wrong thing_ then either change the widget, write a replacement, or use a different widget set. Mind: We'd like to fix that but don't have the time ATM would be an acceptable answer. The problem is Crispin's so brain-locked he can't even see the problem. I wrote a laundry list of issues, desirable features, and general notes on Galeon (and browsers in general) to the list this February, response from Crispin Flowerday (primary Galeon dev): http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=10885824 The dev response was slightly, but not overall, encouraging. What Galeon could very much use is an alternate dev team. I'm not there in my coding skills, but would strongly encourage anyone who has ability and interest. Peace. Notes: 1. Essentially a tight loop of circular reasoning: 1. GNOME is designed for the naive user. 2. Naive users are not qualified to comment on design decisions. 3. Experienced/technical user are not the target demographic, and any input is dismissed. I can't recommend my own brief compendium, Jeff Waugh in his own words, an agony in seven fits, strongly enough: http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2004-January/008588.html -- Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.comhttp://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of Gestalt don't you understand? First come first served. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] DE flame war.
on Sun, Mar 06, 2005 at 12:31:11PM -0500, Peter Jay Salzman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I was thinking of installing a DE on one of my computers. Don't really know much about them. Never really payed much attention. I've always used twm or Enlightenment when I wanted eye-candy. I plan on installing KDE on a test basis to see how I like it unless there are any issues why I should install Gnome instead. Um. Any reason you can't do both and choose the one you want? Or another WM/DE? Any compelling reason to use Gnome instead of KDE? Yeah: one of them fits your preferences, usage habits, and needs better than the other. Speaking for myself: - I use WindowMaker. Light, fast, stable, out of my face, nice configuration tool, good existing keybindings, easy to configure / modify / add additional keybindings. - I've used most of the mainstream (and non-mainstream) WMs. GNOME and KDE both strike me as annoying, in general, though for less technical users, they've got their place. I'm partial toward XFCE4 for newbs -- it's got a straightforward interface, is sort of Mac OS X-like, tends to be friendly. - GNOME works really well if you've accepted your role within the GNOME Gulag. Of course, if you _don't_ feel that Havoc is the Font Of All Things HIG, you're going to find life a trifle...annoying. I find GNOME developer hubris to be grating in the extreme. Particularly the closed-loop logic refuting all user feedback: - GNOME's target demographic is non-technical users. - Non-technical users aren't qualified to comment on design issues. - Technical users aren't GNOME's target demographic. - GNOME has an alarming tendency to make like a supercharged VW Beatle on a ice-slicked Colorado mountain road: continuous 360s until it plunges headline over a 1500' abyss. The number of major direction/architecture changes the project's been through, and the willingless it's demonstrated to change allegiances (toolkits, target audience, design intent, preferred application set) makes me treat it like a rabid, pregnant, injured rhino: with a great deal of cirucumspection but not necessarially with any intent to turn it into a favorite house pet. - Another remarkably charming feature of GNOME is the way it encourages the user to make fantastic journeys through unfamiliar territory. Setting, say, MIME associations in your web browser requires firing up a sort of bastardized psychopathic cross-breed excuse of a file-mangler-cum-desktop-icon-manager, called Nautilus. Then it's merely a straightforward matter of a half dozen mouse-clicks, a newts eye, three waves of the rubber chicken (counterclockwise -- this is often omitted by the user and is contrary to the specs in the prior revisions docs). Browser proxy specification is similarly conveniently located in another totally separate application. - KDE doesn't exhibit quite the same level of psychotic extravegance (is this what they call damning with faint praise), and indeed seems to have a few things remarkably well tought out. Sean Perry made some offhand comments following a LUGoD presentation some years ago which suggest that its (KDE's, not LUGoD's) object- orientatedness was the basis for a certain level of sanity, such as the ability to embed access to various configuration utilities within separate apps: the app developer needn't reinvent the wheel, and the user need not go traipsing across the frozen tundra in search of a setting. Sometimes. You'll need to cross a few swamps from time to time, though. I definitely don't want to run a display manager, and I'd like to keep Enlightenment as a wm. I assume KDE can handle that You do realize, of course, that it's almost always possible to run an application without any regard for its containing environment. Except, of course, in the case of GNOME apps: http://bugs.debian.org/230756 Peace. -- Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.comhttp://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of Gestalt don't you understand? Reject EU Software Patents! http://swpat.ffii.org/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] DE flame war.
On Sunday 06 March 2005 20:57, Karsten M. Self wrote: Speaking for myself: - GNOME has an alarming tendency to make like a supercharged VW Beatle on a ice-slicked Colorado mountain road: continuous 360s until it plunges headline over a 1500' abyss. The number of major direction/architecture changes the project's been through, and the willingless it's demonstrated to change allegiances (toolkits, target audience, design intent, preferred application set) makes me treat it like a rabid, pregnant, injured rhino: with a great deal of cirucumspection but not necessarially with any intent to turn it into a favorite house pet. - Another remarkably charming feature of GNOME is the way it encourages the user to make fantastic journeys through unfamiliar territory. Setting, say, MIME associations in your web browser requires firing up a sort of bastardized psychopathic cross-breed excuse of a file-mangler-cum-desktop-icon-manager, called Nautilus. Then it's merely a straightforward matter of a half dozen mouse-clicks, a newts eye, three waves of the rubber chicken (counterclockwise -- this is often omitted by the user and is contrary to the specs in the prior revisions docs). Browser proxy specification is similarly conveniently located in another totally separate application. Sometimes. You'll need to cross a few swamps from time to time, though. This was fun to read. Nice use of simile and metaphor. This reminds of of Joe Arruda; Mr. Zen. What ever happened to him? Bob ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
Re: [vox-tech] DE flame war.
Quoting Karsten Self (kmself@ix.netcom.com): You do realize, of course, that it's almost always possible to run an application without any regard for its containing environment. Except, of course, in the case of GNOME apps: http://bugs.debian.org/230756 Wow, all my worst suspicions about Nautilus and GNOME brain-damage confirmed, in one neat little bug report. -- Cheers, Rick MoenMagnus frater spectat te. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ vox-tech mailing list vox-tech@lists.lugod.org http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
