[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108
Bug 105108 depends on bug 105202, which changed state.

Bug 105202 Summary: Add libinput measure touchpad-fuzz
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105202

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #26 from Peter Hutterer  ---
*** Bug 105675 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

Peter Hutterer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

--- Comment #25 from Peter Hutterer  ---
thanks for testing, merged and pushed

commit ea7498ef971350454db9c78b9ba160e7d6bb455b
Author: Peter Hutterer <>
Date:   Wed Feb 21 13:41:31 2018 +1000

 touchpad: use the fuzz value (if any) for the hysteresis margin

commit 1b64888a2248af2a287365598cf520e4e2be33fd
Author: Peter Hutterer <>
Date:   Fri Feb 23 11:44:23 2018 +1000

 touchpad: enable hysteresis based on a 0 fuzz value

commit 1523d8bb2e066bec297f7a03ce4a0d8cada8f383
Author: Peter Hutterer <>
Date:   Mon Mar 5 13:17:43 2018 +1000

 Extract and reset the abs fuzz value for the x/y axes

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108
Bug 105108 depends on bug 105303, which changed state.

Bug 105303 Summary: Kernel absfuzz handling is inconsistent
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105303

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #24 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
Confirmed the bug is fixed (just OK) using both patches 1 & 2:

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2018-March/037297.html
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2018-March/037298.html

BUT it feels surprisingly numb, as if fuzz amount is wrong. Then adding patch 3
does feel better:

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2018-March/037299.html

P.S. The patches don't apply cleanly and the 3rd one has a minor conflict.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #23 from Peter Hutterer  ---
I think with the series from
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2018-March/037297.html,
this should be it for this bug?

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #22 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
See bug 105306.

It's a separate bug because that enhancement alone doesn't fix the other bugs
already open. However once combined with:
 - smaller margins (fuzz); and
 - hysteresis always on
then I think we will have a complete fix for this bug and others.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #21 from Peter Hutterer  ---
> what hysteresis algo synaptics been using? Was it the same
> that libinput have now?

yeah, should be the same. The synaptics defaults are fuzz or if fuzz is 0, the
0.5% of the touchpad diagonal. No accommodation for different resolutions.

The functions are the same, see src/synaptics.c hysteresis() and in libinput
the  evdev_hysteresis() function. Look different, but return the same values.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #20 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
I've never looked into the synaptics algorithm.

However good news: I got omnidirectional (elliptical) hysteresis working
yesterday. I will formalise it into a patch today...

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #19 from Hi-Angel  ---
(In reply to Peter Hutterer from comment #1)
> Created attachment 137490 [details] [review]
> 0001-touchpad-use-the-fuzz-value-if-any-for-the-hysteresi.patch
> 
> Give this one a try please. synaptics was using the fuzz value, so that
> probably explains the better response.

Just curious, what hysteresis algo synaptics been using? Was it the same that
libinput have now?

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #18 from Peter Hutterer  ---
> 1. Use fuzz as the hysteresis threshold(s).

yep, already part of that patchset

> 2. Modify hysteresis to be omnidirectional 

the commit introducing that feature seems to trigger the wobble/jitter/..., see
see https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104828#c35
And as pointed out in that comment, I'm out of ideas on having an
omnidirectional hysteresis that doesn't add the same issues that we've seen
before (circle -> square movement)

> 3. Hysteresis always on.

That's already part of the patchset, provided fuzz is nonzero.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #17 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
I think the way forward here is:

1. Use fuzz as the hysteresis threshold(s).
2. Modify hysteresis to be omnidirectional (test if raw (dx,dy) is within the
ellipse defined by the hysteresis thresholds (hx,hy)).
3. Hysteresis always on.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #16 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
When I say "wobbles", I mean the problems with 'wip/hysteresis-wobbles' are
bigger than the problems with 1.10 that I originally called "jitter".

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #15 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
Tested 'wip/hysteresis-wobbles' on Yoga 11S. It seems more broken than any
other branch so far. The cursor actually wobbles in directions that the finger
isn't going in.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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--- Comment #14 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
Thanks. A new bug would be best since this one is explicitly for the Yoga 11S.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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--- Comment #13 from Dustin Spicuzza  ---
FWIW, the 1.10 release was a huge improvement for my Lenovo Flex 5-1470 laptop.
Unfortunately, I have a Dell Inspiron 15-3531 that has a similar jittery/wobble
issue with libinput 1.10 (Fedora).

I built/installed your wip/hystersis branch, and it's a huge improvement over
1.10 on my Dell. However, it seems to wobble if I leave my finger down after
moving the pointer. If it's useful, I can make some recordings and post it here
(or make a new bug).

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #12 from Peter Hutterer  ---
Alright, https://github.com/whot/libinput/tree/wip/hysteresis-wobbles is the
compiled branch for all the current hysteresis fixes. Please give it a test.
This includes:
* reducing to the fuzz
* enabling hysteresis where fuzz != 0
* wobble detection from Hi-Angel [slightly modified by me, but the
functionality is the same]
* hysteresis fixes to work across both axes simultaneously

The last one I'm not 100% sure about, I just finished the code and there may be
a massive thinko. Tests and sanity-checks appreciated.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

Peter Hutterer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||105202


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105202
[Bug 105202] Add libinput measure touchpad-fuzz
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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #11 from Peter Hutterer  ---
Created attachment 137524
  --> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=137524=edit
0001-evdev-change-hysteresis-to-work-across-both-axes.patch

> Reassess the feasibility of making hysteresis omnidirectional so that circles 
> with the finger don't equate to squares with the cursor.

I had a patch for this a year or so ago, but it didn't get any testing or
positive test results, can't remember. Attaching here so it's public at least.
should apply on 1.9.0 but probably not on master

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #10 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
Sounds like a plan:

1. Start using fuzz if available.
2. Never disable hysteresis; and
3. Submit proper measurements and fuzz tweaks per-model.

And maybe in parallel:

Reassess the feasibility of making hysteresis omnidirectional so that circles
with the finger don't equate to squares with the cursor.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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--- Comment #9 from Peter Hutterer  ---
it's already doable, the EV_ABS lines in 60-evdev.hwdb support fuzz and flat as
well (order is x:y:resolution:fuzz:flat).

But before we do that we need a tool to measure what the fuzz would be. Having
users just submit entries they think are correct to the system-wide hwdb is
bound to be painful in the long run. Oh, and that tool needs to reset fuzz to 0
to make sure the kernel doesn't get in the way of the measurements.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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--- Comment #8 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
The wobble is gone because hysteresis is always enabled (I hardcoded it to
enabled). That's not a change introduced by the patch though.

Moving in squares (when the finger moves in circles) is the same old problem
with the hysteresis algorithm, not a problem with the hysteresis magnitude.

That all said, I support the idea of committing attachment 137490. Just
remember to not close this bug.

Once we're using fuzz, perhaps it will be possible to tweak the fuzz (hence
tweak the hysteresis) for each touchpad externally, like libinput-model-quirks?

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105108

--- Comment #7 from Peter Hutterer  ---
'moves in squares' when you actually move the cursor, right? Does it wobble?

1) fwiw, a bug link is not always a signal that the bug is fixed, but rather a
reference to some other documentation so in a year's time we know where we got
a patch idea from.

2) fuzz of 0 as "no hysteresis" is used by the synaptics driver, but tbh I'm
doubtful that's a correct approach. Devices have a tendency to be outright
wrong and 0 is the only default value here. Which means 0 is shared by devices
that don't have fuzz and by devices that simply don't fill it in.

Having said that, might be worth just seeing how long it takes for someone to
complain :)

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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--- Comment #6 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
Confirmed on two machines (Yoga 11S and X1 Carbon gen 5) that using fuzz is a
better idea than resolution/2. Just still not as good as completely disabling
hysteresis (the cursor still visibly moves in squares, just smaller squares
now).

Caveats:
  1. That patch mentions this bug when it shouldn't. It's not a fix for this
bug.
  2. That patch assumes fuzz==0 means unknown fuzz. But I suspect for some
devices, fuzz=0 is the correct fuzz to use (equivalent to never enabling
hysteresis at all). I can't find documentation confirming this theory though.

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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Peter Hutterer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||104828


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104828
[Bug 104828] Wobbly AlpsPS/2 ALPS DualPoint TouchPad
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Peter Hutterer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||hi-an...@yandex.ru

--- Comment #5 from Peter Hutterer  ---
just comment out the tp_maybe_disable_hysteresis() call for testing. and yes,
if that fixes the issue with wobbly pointers but gives reasonable
responsiveness, then that's one way to just completely avoid the hysteresis
enabling/disabling option.

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--- Comment #4 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
Sounds like a good idea, but also like something I can't test unless I add some
hacks to stop hysteresis from quickly turning off, right?

Also, even if that worked the patch mentions this bug as if it's a fix. But
clearly it would not be a fix for this bug if hysteresis is still turning off.
It sounds like the patch needs changing before I even test it. At least to not
mention this bug.

Later I guess, if we are lucky enough to find that fuzz solves lots of problems
with hysteresis then maybe we could consider never turning it off(!). Then that
would be a real fix for this one and other bugs.

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--- Comment #3 from Peter Hutterer  ---
it's unrelated, it just changes how the hysteresis behaves when it's enabled
but it doesn't affect when/how it is enabled/disabled. ideally, it should make
the touchpad more responsive even when the hysteresis is needed.

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--- Comment #2 from Daniel van Vugt  ---
Will do.

Although, will that fix keep working after hysteresis turns off? Or would it
stop hysteresis from turning off?

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Peter Hutterer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||peter.hutte...@who-t.net

--- Comment #1 from Peter Hutterer  ---
Created attachment 137490
  --> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=137490=edit
0001-touchpad-use-the-fuzz-value-if-any-for-the-hysteresi.patch

Give this one a try please. synaptics was using the fuzz value, so that
probably explains the better response.

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Daniel van Vugt  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://launchpad.net/bugs/
   ||1749689

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Daniel van Vugt  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 OS|All |Linux (All)
   Priority|medium  |low
   Hardware|Other   |x86-64 (AMD64)

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[Wayland-bugs] [Bug 105108] Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery

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Bug ID: 105108
   Summary: Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery
   Product: Wayland
   Version: unspecified
  Hardware: Other
OS: All
Status: NEW
  Severity: normal
  Priority: medium
 Component: libinput
  Assignee: wayland-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
  Reporter: daniel.van.v...@canonical.com

Created attachment 137371
  --> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=137371=edit
yoga11s_one_finger_still.txt (evemu recording)

Lenovo Yoga 11S touchpad is jittery. The cursor moves a little even when I try
to keep my finger still.

This is noticeable after hysteresis has turned off, but libinput hysteresis was
definitely not helping since it made the touchpad unusably numb and
unresponsive. So the jitter problem I'm talking about here in libinput 1.10 is
much better than how it was previously :)

The same jitter happens with the synaptics driver if I turn off hysteresis
there. Although synaptics with hysteresis provides a nice experience... seems
to be a dramatically lower hysteresis threshold.

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