[web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
Of course digg into Drupal, it is one of the best CMS out there.
Re: [web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
Let me second the Plone for CMS/Web2py for rapid apps meme. I'm also a regular user of Plone and Plone 4 is excellent. Point of trivia, while Plone latest release has gotten faster, Drupal's latest release has gotten slower. Anyway I've had to dive into web2py because it was the best choice for teach web application development. On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Philip Kilner phil.kil...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Jonathan, On 07/01/11 17:28, Jonathan Lundell wrote: I'd like to see a good CMS based on web2py (the analogy isn't exact, but sort of like Plone is based on Zope). However, building a good CMS on web2py is at least as much work as building web2py in the first place (order of magnitude, anyway). I don't believe that you can cobble together a good CMS like that. I'd ideally like to see an all web2py solution too, but I agree that it's a big task, which I suspect some underestimate. As a long-time Plone user (specifically, integrating RDBMS applications with Plone CMSs), I'm actually very happy using Plone as a CMS and web2py for RDBMS apps, and integrating the two where I need to. There is another issue, which is dilution - Plone has somewhat eclipsed Zope, and there is debate on and off about whether Plone is a CMS application or a framework, while Zope is now sometimes described as a CMS. I think that confusion has had a cost for both Zope and Plone. My hope is that: - - Web2py keeps focussing on being an excellent framework. - If someone develops a heavyweight CMS in web2py, which would be good, it does not get confused with web2py itself. FWIW, I'm hoping to start publishing my web2py notes later this month, and have been a little bit concerned that I might get a negative reaction to their being in a Plone CMS. I'm going to stop worrying about that - I've picked the best framework for my work in web2py, and the best CMS for me to document it in Plone. -- Cheers, PhilK
[web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
Drupal is a Trojan horse. Don't go there. On Jan 6, 7:21 pm, Luther Goh Lu Feng elf...@yahoo.com wrote: Even though it is in php, with the release of Drupal 7, I am tempted to give it a spin just to see what's the fuss all about. Drupal seems extremely popular, looking at some of the well known organisations that have used it. But are there any python, or hopefully, web2py alternatives to it?
[web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
On Jan 7, 9:59 am, VP vtp2...@gmail.com wrote: Drupal is a Trojan horse. Don't go there. What's the enemy hiding inside? PHP?
[web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
It's not so much PHP (at least not directly). It's a Trojan horse because it's a very attractive tool to create something quick, easy and pretty. CCK (now included in core), Panel, Views are so powerful that you can create many websites (apps) with them. But as you go deeper, trying to add features, it will be so difficult. Just to make the app looks right to your taste is really a challenging job. Another thing that is not so obvious to beginners is performance. It will baffle you how many database queries are made just to show a page (Drupal 6, but 7 is probably the same). Caching is good, but sometime you can't cache everything. Essentially, there are so much thing in the package that you have to piggy back for your app. Things like web2py are much more tidy. You have a global views of where things are. But Drupal is huge. well that's my point of view. On Jan 7, 2:03 am, cjrh caleb.hatti...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 7, 9:59 am, VP vtp2...@gmail.com wrote: Drupal is a Trojan horse. Don't go there. What's the enemy hiding inside? PHP?
[web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
On Jan 7, 10:27 am, VP vtp2...@gmail.com wrote: But as you go deeper, trying to add features, it will be so difficult. Just to make the app looks right to your taste is really a challenging job. Ok, interesting.
[web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
On Jan 7, 6:37 pm, cjrh caleb.hatti...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 7, 10:27 am, VP vtp2...@gmail.com wrote: But as you go deeper, trying to add features, it will be so difficult. Just to make the app looks right to your taste is really a challenging job. Ok, interesting. So quick question, is this challenge particular to the nature of CMS- es like drupal, or just drupal specific?
Re: [web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
On Jan 7, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Luther Goh Lu Feng wrote: On Jan 7, 6:37 pm, cjrh caleb.hatti...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 7, 10:27 am, VP vtp2...@gmail.com wrote: But as you go deeper, trying to add features, it will be so difficult. Just to make the app looks right to your taste is really a challenging job. Ok, interesting. So quick question, is this challenge particular to the nature of CMS- es like drupal, or just drupal specific? I'd say it's pretty much true of the major CMS's out there (it's certainly true of Expression Engine), but it may not be because of the nature of CMS's generally. I think it might be possible to write a good one. Difficult, though, especially at the definition/architecture stage. It's too easy to leave necessary functionality out, and too easy to screw things up by patching it in later.
[web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
On Jan 8, 12:48 am, Jonathan Lundell jlund...@pobox.com wrote: On Jan 7, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Luther Goh Lu Feng wrote: On Jan 7, 6:37 pm, cjrh caleb.hatti...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 7, 10:27 am, VP vtp2...@gmail.com wrote: But as you go deeper, trying to add features, it will be so difficult. Just to make the app looks right to your taste is really a challenging job. Ok, interesting. So quick question, is this challenge particular to the nature of CMS- es like drupal, or just drupal specific? I'd say it's pretty much true of the major CMS's out there (it's certainly true of Expression Engine), but it may not be because of the nature of CMS's generally. I think it might be possible to write a good one. Difficult, though, especially at the definition/architecture stage. It's too easy to leave necessary functionality out, and too easy to screw things up by patching it in later. Looking at web2py, we already have an IDE, a wizard, and a plugin wiki. Might be the beginnings of a drupal-like CMS for this year's web2py exhibition.
[web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
In essence, a CMS is not really a framework. Just like a forum software, or a blog software is not a CMS. I think unless VBulletin or Wordpress drastic changes their structure, they will not be as capable as Drupal, as a CMS. A CMS is a platform to build systems that manage content. It happens to be the the core of most web app are about managing contents. This is why Drupal is very popular and powerful. But as you add features on top of your apps that have little to do with the management of content, you will find it difficult in Drupal. A framework is more general. With web2py (or perhaps other frameworks) you can relatively easily build something like a Stock Exchange App. With Drupal, you probably can too, but it will be more difficult, and you'll have to piggy back lots of unnecessary things that have to do with CMS. Drupal is very nice at what it is. But because of that I think it's very dangerous. Most web apps have some form of management of content. This makes it very tempting to quickly adopt something like Drupal. But as you add on top of that core behavior other things, it will bite you in the butt. But for 80% of web apps, Drupal does very well. On Jan 7, 10:48 am, Jonathan Lundell jlund...@pobox.com wrote: On Jan 7, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Luther Goh Lu Feng wrote: On Jan 7, 6:37 pm, cjrh caleb.hatti...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 7, 10:27 am, VP vtp2...@gmail.com wrote: But as you go deeper, trying to add features, it will be so difficult. Just to make the app looks right to your taste is really a challenging job. Ok, interesting. So quick question, is this challenge particular to the nature of CMS- es like drupal, or just drupal specific? I'd say it's pretty much true of the major CMS's out there (it's certainly true of Expression Engine), but it may not be because of the nature of CMS's generally. I think it might be possible to write a good one. Difficult, though, especially at the definition/architecture stage. It's too easy to leave necessary functionality out, and too easy to screw things up by patching it in later.
[web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
Tks for your opinions. So I take it that it may not be worthwhile to consider building a drupal-like CMS off web2py for non-programmers? On Jan 8, 1:11 am, VP vtp2...@gmail.com wrote: In essence, a CMS is not really a framework. Just like a forum software, or a blog software is not a CMS. I think unless VBulletin or Wordpress drastic changes their structure, they will not be as capable as Drupal, as a CMS. A CMS is a platform to build systems that manage content. It happens to be the the core of most web app are about managing contents. This is why Drupal is very popular and powerful. But as you add features on top of your apps that have little to do with the management of content, you will find it difficult in Drupal. A framework is more general. With web2py (or perhaps other frameworks) you can relatively easily build something like a Stock Exchange App. With Drupal, you probably can too, but it will be more difficult, and you'll have to piggy back lots of unnecessary things that have to do with CMS. Drupal is very nice at what it is. But because of that I think it's very dangerous. Most web apps have some form of management of content. This makes it very tempting to quickly adopt something like Drupal. But as you add on top of that core behavior other things, it will bite you in the butt. But for 80% of web apps, Drupal does very well. On Jan 7, 10:48 am, Jonathan Lundell jlund...@pobox.com wrote: On Jan 7, 2011, at 8:40 AM, Luther Goh Lu Feng wrote: On Jan 7, 6:37 pm, cjrh caleb.hatti...@gmail.com wrote: On Jan 7, 10:27 am, VP vtp2...@gmail.com wrote: But as you go deeper, trying to add features, it will be so difficult. Just to make the app looks right to your taste is really a challenging job. Ok, interesting. So quick question, is this challenge particular to the nature of CMS- es like drupal, or just drupal specific? I'd say it's pretty much true of the major CMS's out there (it's certainly true of Expression Engine), but it may not be because of the nature of CMS's generally. I think it might be possible to write a good one. Difficult, though, especially at the definition/architecture stage. It's too easy to leave necessary functionality out, and too easy to screw things up by patching it in later.
Re: [web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
On Jan 7, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Luther Goh Lu Feng wrote: Looking at web2py, we already have an IDE, a wizard, and a plugin wiki. Might be the beginnings of a drupal-like CMS for this year's web2py exhibition. I'd like to see a good CMS based on web2py (the analogy isn't exact, but sort of like Plone is based on Zope). However, building a good CMS on web2py is at least as much work as building web2py in the first place (order of magnitude, anyway). I don't believe that you can cobble together a good CMS like that.
[web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
I think it would definitely be worthwhile for there to be a decent Web2py-based CMS. But it doesn't need to be as extensive and complicated as Drupal. Keep it simple.
Re: [web2py] Re: Drupal alternatives in Python or web2py
Hi Jonathan, On 07/01/11 17:28, Jonathan Lundell wrote: I'd like to see a good CMS based on web2py (the analogy isn't exact, but sort of like Plone is based on Zope). However, building a good CMS on web2py is at least as much work as building web2py in the first place (order of magnitude, anyway). I don't believe that you can cobble together a good CMS like that. I'd ideally like to see an all web2py solution too, but I agree that it's a big task, which I suspect some underestimate. As a long-time Plone user (specifically, integrating RDBMS applications with Plone CMSs), I'm actually very happy using Plone as a CMS and web2py for RDBMS apps, and integrating the two where I need to. There is another issue, which is dilution - Plone has somewhat eclipsed Zope, and there is debate on and off about whether Plone is a CMS application or a framework, while Zope is now sometimes described as a CMS. I think that confusion has had a cost for both Zope and Plone. My hope is that: - - Web2py keeps focussing on being an excellent framework. - If someone develops a heavyweight CMS in web2py, which would be good, it does not get confused with web2py itself. FWIW, I'm hoping to start publishing my web2py notes later this month, and have been a little bit concerned that I might get a negative reaction to their being in a Plone CMS. I'm going to stop worrying about that - I've picked the best framework for my work in web2py, and the best CMS for me to document it in Plone. -- Cheers, PhilK
