Re: irc channel

[Paul Stringer]

Colloquy http://colloquy.info/ is one of the most polished.

On Jun 19, 2007, at 7:31 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:



On 6/18/07, Pascal Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


http://www.people.ex.ac.uk/jastaple/irc/homer.html

:-)




I presume you are joking. PPC only, macos7, what? Mozilla/SeaMonkey
had an embedded IRC client.


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Re: Getting Started With WO site

[Chuck Hill]

On Jun 18, 2007, at 10:30 PM, Q wrote:



On 19/06/2007, at 2:02 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:

I am not sure that putting it in the WOCommunity site is the best  
idea.  I will propose that a top level split is of longer term  
value.  "spaces" in a Confluence website are somewhat isolated  
from each other, but it is still easy to make links between topics  
in each.


Agreed, my preference was more for using confluence than the wocom  
space in particular.


  Rather than have the stuff from the WikiBook jammed into WOCOM,  
would it not be more useful to provide something along the lines of:


WOLips - for all things directly related to WOLips and Eclipse usage


Yup, that already exists as the WOL space.

WOCOOM - for community related things, news, plans, associations,  
etc.

Wonder -  for all things directly related to Project Wonder


YES.


WebObjects - for documentation on WebObjects
WOTutorials - maybe part of WebObjects, maybe  a separate space


I don't think these should be separate spaces.


That depends on what goes in them.  If the WebObjects one is devoted  
to documentation that extends what Apple has in JavaDocs and other  
docs, it may make sense to keep tutorial information separate.



I think that having a top level differentiation like that will  
make it easier to locate the information that you want and easier  
to decide where to place new material.


A logical page structure would also help this. However, search in  
confluence is very good, and significantly more useful for finding  
things than navigation alone.


A logical page structure would be great, but that requires more  
planning and co-ordination than I fear will happen.  :-)


Chuck






On Jun 18, 2007, at 6:00 PM, Q wrote:



++1 here. I really dislike trying to use the wiki book, I would  
much prefer to see content marshalled into the WOCommunity wiki,  
rather than into the wiki book.


If the WOCOM wiki was the official centre of these efforts I  
would be much more included to spend time on it.


On 19/06/2007, at 8:45 AM, Chuck Hill wrote:


I also am less than thrilled with the WikiBook:

- the process of adding images is painful
- I am not sure if anything else can be added
- searching just the WO content is either not possible or not clear
- the markup is limited
- no one has control over the backups etc.

I have used Confluence quite a bit and find that to be much  
better for documenting technical material.


Chuck

On Jun 14, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

Agreed.  How do we (and I guess by we I mean everybody on this  
list) come to an agreement on the one place that should be the  
definitive posting grounds?  Honestly, I sometimes find  
navigating the wiki book less than ideal, but it's kind of a  
minor irritation that I can live with if it solves the problem  
of a central repository, and there's so much there already that  
it seems like the most logical place to me.  Whatever it is, it  
should be publicly editable, I think, and it has to be  
searchable and individual articles must be linkable.  Is  
anybody in disagreement that the wiki book is the best place  
ongoing to post information?  If so, can we start an effort to  
shuttle information posted elsewhere into the wiki book if it  
is missing?  If not, what are alternative suggestions for the  
central repository of information?


Thanks,
Mark

On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Dana Kashubeck wrote:


On 6/14/07 11:57 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:
My understanding is that the webobjects wiki book (http:// 
en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjects) is trying to  
become the central point of documentation for WebObjects that  
people post to.  There's already a ton of info there, but we  
all know it could use a ton more.  At WOWODC, when the  
experts panel was asked what could be done to help with  
project wonder, this is what they came back with  
immediately:  We need people writing documentation, and this  
is the place to put it.  Even if it's bad, there are so many  
people watching it that bad info will get edited out quickly.
I think there's a danger in having TOO many informational  
sites.  If everybody decides to wing it because they get on a  
high at a developer's conference regarding being able to  
document stuff to widen the movement, I think we will end up  
with dozens of blogs, half finished tutorials, etc.  There's  
a reason there isn't much documentation on Wonder and  
WebObjects:  writing good documentation is HARD and time  
consuming, and not a very glamorous task.  So if you have 10  
spare hours to write a decent article on a very specific  
issue, I think everybody would be better served if that went  
to the wikibook.  That way, everybody can always point to one  
resource as definitive.
I don't mean to be preachy about it or rain on anybody's  
parade that is putting up yet another site about WebObjects.   
What I just wrote might sound snappy or mean, but I don't  
mean it that way.  I'm just tr

Current book recommendations? (Ajax and/or CSS)

[Paul Stringer]

O'Reilly CSS Cookbook has proved pretty useful to me as a reference,  
also online there's http://alistapart.com/. Not a book but as good as  
one is CSSEdit on the Mac by MacRabbit. It's a beautiful application  
for working with, creating and editing CSS styles.


On Ajax I had the Apress 'Foundations of Ajax' book. It's pretty good  
in teaching the principles but it doesn't tell you about what you're  
going to need to do when it comes to WebObjects. For this their  
really is no substitute for  examining the WOnder Ajax Examples and  
Framework and getting going just implementing them in a project.


Paul


On Jun 19, 2007, at 1:37 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:



Current book recommendations? (Ajax and/or CSS)


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Re: Getting Started With WO site

[Q]

On 19/06/2007, at 2:02 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:

I am not sure that putting it in the WOCommunity site is the best  
idea.  I will propose that a top level split is of longer term  
value.  "spaces" in a Confluence website are somewhat isolated from  
each other, but it is still easy to make links between topics in each.


Agreed, my preference was more for using confluence than the wocom  
space in particular.


  Rather than have the stuff from the WikiBook jammed into WOCOM,  
would it not be more useful to provide something along the lines of:


WOLips - for all things directly related to WOLips and Eclipse usage


Yup, that already exists as the WOL space.


WOCOOM - for community related things, news, plans, associations, etc.
Wonder -  for all things directly related to Project Wonder


YES.


WebObjects - for documentation on WebObjects
WOTutorials - maybe part of WebObjects, maybe  a separate space


I don't think these should be separate spaces.

I think that having a top level differentiation like that will make  
it easier to locate the information that you want and easier to  
decide where to place new material.


A logical page structure would also help this. However, search in  
confluence is very good, and significantly more useful for finding  
things than navigation alone.




On Jun 18, 2007, at 6:00 PM, Q wrote:



++1 here. I really dislike trying to use the wiki book, I would  
much prefer to see content marshalled into the WOCommunity wiki,  
rather than into the wiki book.


If the WOCOM wiki was the official centre of these efforts I would  
be much more included to spend time on it.


On 19/06/2007, at 8:45 AM, Chuck Hill wrote:


I also am less than thrilled with the WikiBook:

- the process of adding images is painful
- I am not sure if anything else can be added
- searching just the WO content is either not possible or not clear
- the markup is limited
- no one has control over the backups etc.

I have used Confluence quite a bit and find that to be much  
better for documenting technical material.


Chuck

On Jun 14, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

Agreed.  How do we (and I guess by we I mean everybody on this  
list) come to an agreement on the one place that should be the  
definitive posting grounds?  Honestly, I sometimes find  
navigating the wiki book less than ideal, but it's kind of a  
minor irritation that I can live with if it solves the problem  
of a central repository, and there's so much there already that  
it seems like the most logical place to me.  Whatever it is, it  
should be publicly editable, I think, and it has to be  
searchable and individual articles must be linkable.  Is anybody  
in disagreement that the wiki book is the best place ongoing to  
post information?  If so, can we start an effort to shuttle  
information posted elsewhere into the wiki book if it is  
missing?  If not, what are alternative suggestions for the  
central repository of information?


Thanks,
Mark

On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Dana Kashubeck wrote:


On 6/14/07 11:57 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:
My understanding is that the webobjects wiki book (http:// 
en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjects) is trying to  
become the central point of documentation for WebObjects that  
people post to.  There's already a ton of info there, but we  
all know it could use a ton more.  At WOWODC, when the experts  
panel was asked what could be done to help with project  
wonder, this is what they came back with immediately:  We need  
people writing documentation, and this is the place to put  
it.  Even if it's bad, there are so many people watching it  
that bad info will get edited out quickly.
I think there's a danger in having TOO many informational  
sites.  If everybody decides to wing it because they get on a  
high at a developer's conference regarding being able to  
document stuff to widen the movement, I think we will end up  
with dozens of blogs, half finished tutorials, etc.  There's a  
reason there isn't much documentation on Wonder and  
WebObjects:  writing good documentation is HARD and time  
consuming, and not a very glamorous task.  So if you have 10  
spare hours to write a decent article on a very specific  
issue, I think everybody would be better served if that went  
to the wikibook.  That way, everybody can always point to one  
resource as definitive.
I don't mean to be preachy about it or rain on anybody's  
parade that is putting up yet another site about WebObjects.   
What I just wrote might sound snappy or mean, but I don't mean  
it that way.  I'm just trying to advocate a central repository  
for everything so people don't have to go here and there to  
get various pieces of the overall puzzle.  Maybe if you start  
a site, you could also make sure that all of the contents of  
that site are also posted in the wiki book in the sensible  
place?  Thoughts?
I was thinking the same thing.  Last year there were some  
really great efforts

[Eclipse/WOLips] EOGenerator not generating files

[Cheong Hee (Datasonic)]

Testing on the tutorial posted by Janine a while ago ...

At the install EOGenerator 1.7 section (c), i supposed this is a minor to 
change:

"Go to Eclipse -> Preferences -> WOLips -> EOGenerator" meant
"Go to Window -> Preferences -> WOLips -> EOGenerator"

The issue I am running into is the eogenerator seemed unable to generate the 
class files from Eclipse/WOLips.  I am right-clicked LicensePlate.eogen and 
then "WOLips Tools-> EO Generate".  No package is generated in src directory.

The extract of the .eogen file looks as such:
C:\CheongHee\UserAreaEclipse\Developer\Applications\eogenerator\eogenerator.exe 
-destination src -java -javaTemplate JavaSourceEOF52.eotemplate -model 
C:LicensePlate.eomodeld -packagedirs -subclassDestination src 
-subclassJavaTemplate JavaSubclassSourceEOF5.eotemplate -templatedir 
../../../../UserAreaEclipse/Developer/Applications/eogenerator/Templates 
-verbose

Note that there is a "-model C:LicensePlate.eomodeld".  Is this supposed to be 
"-model LicensePlate.eomodeld" ?

Running on the command line, with slight modiification on "-model 
LicensePlate.eomodeld", it did work.

Cheers

Cheong Hee


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Re: Getting Started With WO site

[Chuck Hill]

I am not sure that putting it in the WOCommunity site is the best  
idea.  I will propose that a top level split is of longer term  
value.  "spaces" in a Confluence website are somewhat isolated from  
each other, but it is still easy to make links between topics in  
each.  Rather than have the stuff from the WikiBook jammed into  
WOCOM, would it not be more useful to provide something along the  
lines of:


WOLips - for all things directly related to WOLips and Eclipse usage
WOCOOM - for community related things, news, plans, associations, etc.
Wonder -  for all things directly related to Project Wonder
WebObjects - for documentation on WebObjects
WOTutorials - maybe part of WebObjects, maybe  a separate space

I think that having a top level differentiation like that will make  
it easier to locate the information that you want and easier to  
decide where to place new material.


Chuck


On Jun 18, 2007, at 6:00 PM, Q wrote:



++1 here. I really dislike trying to use the wiki book, I would  
much prefer to see content marshalled into the WOCommunity wiki,  
rather than into the wiki book.


If the WOCOM wiki was the official centre of these efforts I would  
be much more included to spend time on it.


On 19/06/2007, at 8:45 AM, Chuck Hill wrote:


I also am less than thrilled with the WikiBook:

- the process of adding images is painful
- I am not sure if anything else can be added
- searching just the WO content is either not possible or not clear
- the markup is limited
- no one has control over the backups etc.

I have used Confluence quite a bit and find that to be much better  
for documenting technical material.


Chuck

On Jun 14, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

Agreed.  How do we (and I guess by we I mean everybody on this  
list) come to an agreement on the one place that should be the  
definitive posting grounds?  Honestly, I sometimes find  
navigating the wiki book less than ideal, but it's kind of a  
minor irritation that I can live with if it solves the problem of  
a central repository, and there's so much there already that it  
seems like the most logical place to me.  Whatever it is, it  
should be publicly editable, I think, and it has to be searchable  
and individual articles must be linkable.  Is anybody in  
disagreement that the wiki book is the best place ongoing to post  
information?  If so, can we start an effort to shuttle  
information posted elsewhere into the wiki book if it is  
missing?  If not, what are alternative suggestions for the  
central repository of information?


Thanks,
Mark

On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Dana Kashubeck wrote:


On 6/14/07 11:57 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:
My understanding is that the webobjects wiki book (http:// 
en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjects) is trying to  
become the central point of documentation for WebObjects that  
people post to.  There's already a ton of info there, but we  
all know it could use a ton more.  At WOWODC, when the experts  
panel was asked what could be done to help with project wonder,  
this is what they came back with immediately:  We need people  
writing documentation, and this is the place to put it.  Even  
if it's bad, there are so many people watching it that bad info  
will get edited out quickly.
I think there's a danger in having TOO many informational  
sites.  If everybody decides to wing it because they get on a  
high at a developer's conference regarding being able to  
document stuff to widen the movement, I think we will end up  
with dozens of blogs, half finished tutorials, etc.  There's a  
reason there isn't much documentation on Wonder and  
WebObjects:  writing good documentation is HARD and time  
consuming, and not a very glamorous task.  So if you have 10  
spare hours to write a decent article on a very specific issue,  
I think everybody would be better served if that went to the  
wikibook.  That way, everybody can always point to one resource  
as definitive.
I don't mean to be preachy about it or rain on anybody's parade  
that is putting up yet another site about WebObjects.  What I  
just wrote might sound snappy or mean, but I don't mean it that  
way.  I'm just trying to advocate a central repository for  
everything so people don't have to go here and there to get  
various pieces of the overall puzzle.  Maybe if you start a  
site, you could also make sure that all of the contents of that  
site are also posted in the wiki book in the sensible place?   
Thoughts?
I was thinking the same thing.  Last year there were some really  
great efforts to put together "the site" for WebObjects  
information.  I think it was this one:  http:// 
wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOCOM/WOCOM


So there's that wiki, the wiki book, www.wocommunity.org, etc.,  
etc.  I completely agree that there is a huge need for  
documentation and resources and it is important for the  
community to put these things together.  But right now  
everything just seems

Firefox VS Safari

[Anthony Arthur]

Normally I test/debug using Safari, suffering glacier-ly slow  
response times.  Then I tried Firefox -- wow -- what a difference.   
Why does Safari respond so much more slowly than FF?  Anyone else  
ever notice this and care to offer a reason?


--Brian
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Re: Duplicate objects in a relationship

[Ken Anderson]

Is the relationship munged the first time it is fired, or is there a  
period where it behaves correctly?  Are you manually manipulating the  
array anywhere?


On Jun 18, 2007, at 4:58 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:



On Jun 17, 2007, at 4:22 PM, Simon McLean wrote:


Hi Chuck - I am using inheritance, but of the single table variety:


Is the restricting qualifier unique across all entities?  Do the  
abstract ones have a restricting qualifier?


Yes, and yes.


I still somewhat suspect an inheritance issue, or an inheritance  
modelling issue.  Have you looked at the SQL generated when the  
fault for this relationship is fired?  That may provide a clue.





Client has a parent called AbstractOrganisation, EmployeeRole  
has a parent called AbstractUserRole which are mapped to  
ABSTRACT_ORGANISATION and ABSTRACT_USER_ROLE tables. The  
problematic relationship is inherited from the parent - so  
getRoles() actually returns an array of AbstractUserRoles, and  
the reverse relationship getOrganisation() returns an  
AbstractOrganisation.


I tried moving the relationships from the parent down to the  
child objects, but I get the same behavior. I've also checked  
the tables for duplicate PK's but there aren't any.


Iterate over the objects in client.getRoles() and print out  
getClass().getName(), entityName(), and hashCode() on each.  I  
suspect you may get a surprise.


Here is the output:

com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
5627611
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
10105184
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
2082210
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
5627611
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
10105184
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
2082210
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
5627611
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
10105184
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
2082210
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
5627611
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
10105184
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
2082210

Which suggests there are definitely duplicates in there.

I've also noticed that not all Client objects are affected. In  
fact, it looks like only a handful are. I guess this points to a  
data error ?


I have no idea what is wrong, but I remain suspicious of how you  
have modeled/implemented inheritance.  Is there any chance that the  
restricting qualifiers may match more than one sub-class?


Chuck

--

Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their  
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific  
problems.

http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects





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Re: Getting Started With WO site

[Q]

++1 here. I really dislike trying to use the wiki book, I would much  
prefer to see content marshalled into the WOCommunity wiki, rather  
than into the wiki book.


If the WOCOM wiki was the official centre of these efforts I would be  
much more included to spend time on it.


On 19/06/2007, at 8:45 AM, Chuck Hill wrote:


I also am less than thrilled with the WikiBook:

- the process of adding images is painful
- I am not sure if anything else can be added
- searching just the WO content is either not possible or not clear
- the markup is limited
- no one has control over the backups etc.

I have used Confluence quite a bit and find that to be much better  
for documenting technical material.


Chuck

On Jun 14, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

Agreed.  How do we (and I guess by we I mean everybody on this  
list) come to an agreement on the one place that should be the  
definitive posting grounds?  Honestly, I sometimes find navigating  
the wiki book less than ideal, but it's kind of a minor irritation  
that I can live with if it solves the problem of a central  
repository, and there's so much there already that it seems like  
the most logical place to me.  Whatever it is, it should be  
publicly editable, I think, and it has to be searchable and  
individual articles must be linkable.  Is anybody in disagreement  
that the wiki book is the best place ongoing to post information?   
If so, can we start an effort to shuttle information posted  
elsewhere into the wiki book if it is missing?  If not, what are  
alternative suggestions for the central repository of information?


Thanks,
Mark

On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Dana Kashubeck wrote:


On 6/14/07 11:57 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:
My understanding is that the webobjects wiki book (http:// 
en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjects) is trying to  
become the central point of documentation for WebObjects that  
people post to.  There's already a ton of info there, but we all  
know it could use a ton more.  At WOWODC, when the experts panel  
was asked what could be done to help with project wonder, this  
is what they came back with immediately:  We need people writing  
documentation, and this is the place to put it.  Even if it's  
bad, there are so many people watching it that bad info will get  
edited out quickly.
I think there's a danger in having TOO many informational  
sites.  If everybody decides to wing it because they get on a  
high at a developer's conference regarding being able to  
document stuff to widen the movement, I think we will end up  
with dozens of blogs, half finished tutorials, etc.  There's a  
reason there isn't much documentation on Wonder and WebObjects:   
writing good documentation is HARD and time consuming, and not a  
very glamorous task.  So if you have 10 spare hours to write a  
decent article on a very specific issue, I think everybody would  
be better served if that went to the wikibook.  That way,  
everybody can always point to one resource as definitive.
I don't mean to be preachy about it or rain on anybody's parade  
that is putting up yet another site about WebObjects.  What I  
just wrote might sound snappy or mean, but I don't mean it that  
way.  I'm just trying to advocate a central repository for  
everything so people don't have to go here and there to get  
various pieces of the overall puzzle.  Maybe if you start a  
site, you could also make sure that all of the contents of that  
site are also posted in the wiki book in the sensible place?   
Thoughts?
I was thinking the same thing.  Last year there were some really  
great efforts to put together "the site" for WebObjects  
information.  I think it was this one:  http:// 
wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOCOM/WOCOM


So there's that wiki, the wiki book, www.wocommunity.org, etc.,  
etc.  I completely agree that there is a huge need for  
documentation and resources and it is important for the community  
to put these things together.  But right now everything just  
seems *so* scattered!  Can those who have been generous enough  
with their time please post their content on one of the already  
existing sites?


--
-
Dana Kashubeck
Systems Manager
Riemer Reporting Service Inc.
http://www.riemer.com

Phone: 440-835-2477 x. 125
Fax:   440-835-4594
-




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Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their  
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific  
problems.

http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects

Re: irc channel

[Pascal Robert]

Le 07-06-18 à 19:47, Joe Little a écrit :


On 6/18/07, Pascal Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

http://www.people.ex.ac.uk/jastaple/irc/homer.html

:-)



I presume you are joking. PPC only, macos7, what? Mozilla/SeaMonkey
had an embedded IRC client.


You bet I was joking :-)  Not only Homer is very old, but even in the  
7.5/7.6 days it was unstable.




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Re: irc channel

[Joe Little]

On 6/18/07, Joe Little <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 6/18/07, Pascal Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.people.ex.ac.uk/jastaple/irc/homer.html
>
> :-)
>

I presume you are joking. PPC only, macos7, what? Mozilla/SeaMonkey
had an embedded IRC client.

That said, IRC is the root of all evil (wearing my security hat).
There's got to be a better way :)


answering with a working client:

http://adlr.info/?Irssix





>
> what's the suggested irc client for os x?
>
>
> On Jun 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, David Holt wrote:
> It's unbelievable how much you're missing already :-)
>
> heh heh (evil laughter)
>
> d
>
>
> --
> It's like driving a car at night. You never see further than your
> headlights, but you can make the whole trip that way.
>
> E. L. Doctorow
>
> from Sunbeams: http://www.thesunmagazine.org
>
>
> On 18 Jun 2007, at 2:21 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 17, 2007, at 12:17 PM, David LeBer wrote:
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> I just registered a WebObjects irc channel: #webo on irc.freenode.net.
>
> I figure all the cool kids are doing it...
>
> No.  No.  Nooo.  :-P  Given my nature, I think I ought to
> stay far away from this.
>
> What do you think about scheduling a set hour every week or two when we
> could all gather and chat.  I would be willing to show up for that.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> --
>
> Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall
> knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems.
> http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: irc channel

[Joe Little]

On 6/18/07, Pascal Robert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

http://www.people.ex.ac.uk/jastaple/irc/homer.html

:-)



I presume you are joking. PPC only, macos7, what? Mozilla/SeaMonkey
had an embedded IRC client.

That said, IRC is the root of all evil (wearing my security hat).
There's got to be a better way :)



what's the suggested irc client for os x?


On Jun 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, David Holt wrote:
It's unbelievable how much you're missing already :-)

heh heh (evil laughter)

d


--
It's like driving a car at night. You never see further than your
headlights, but you can make the whole trip that way.

E. L. Doctorow

from Sunbeams: http://www.thesunmagazine.org


On 18 Jun 2007, at 2:21 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:


On Jun 17, 2007, at 12:17 PM, David LeBer wrote:


Hello all,

I just registered a WebObjects irc channel: #webo on irc.freenode.net.

I figure all the cool kids are doing it...

No.  No.  Nooo.  :-P  Given my nature, I think I ought to
stay far away from this.

What do you think about scheduling a set hour every week or two when we
could all gather and chat.  I would be willing to show up for that.


Chuck


--

Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their overall
knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific problems.
http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects





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Re: irc channel

[Pascal Robert]

http://www.people.ex.ac.uk/jastaple/irc/homer.html

:-)


what's the suggested irc client for os x?

On Jun 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, David Holt wrote:


It's unbelievable how much you're missing already :-)

heh heh (evil laughter)

d

--  
It's like driving a car at night. You never see further than your  
headlights, but you can make the whole trip that way.


E. L. Doctorow

from Sunbeams: http://www.thesunmagazine.org


On 18 Jun 2007, at 2:21 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:



On Jun 17, 2007, at 12:17 PM, David LeBer wrote:


Hello all,

I just registered a WebObjects irc channel: #webo on  
irc.freenode.net.


I figure all the cool kids are doing it...


No.  No.  Nooo.  :-P  Given my nature, I think I  
ought to stay far away from this.


What do you think about scheduling a set hour every week or two  
when we could all gather and chat.  I would be willing to show up  
for that.



Chuck


--

Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their  
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve  
specific problems.

http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects





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programmingosx%40mac.com


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Current book recommendations? (Ajax and/or CSS)

[Leif Harrison]

Anyone have any book recommendations for Ajax (Java-focused...for use  
with WO, obviously) and/or CSS? (and possibly Javascript, to help  
with the Ajax bits?)


It appears that I'm a bit behind the curve, having left behind the  
Obj-C WO universe only two months ago...

(and now getting up to speed on Java WO)

- Leif

--
Leif Harrison
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: Getting Started With WO site

[Chuck Hill]

The ObjectStyle wiki is not my site so I can't comment on what can or  
should be done.  Right now they host a space/site for WOLips and one   
for the WO-Community.  The stuff from the wiki book does not seem  
like it should go in either place.


It would be cool if Wonder had its own space.

Just ruminating.

Chuck


On Jun 18, 2007, at 4:24 PM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

Well, then, should those of us who want a centralized repository  
focus on the confluence wiki?  I would be happy to volunteer a  
little time each day trying to organize the thing and bring content  
from the wiki book (and anywhere else I can get info with the  
author's permission) over to the confluence site if everybody is in  
agreement that this is the smart thing to do.


On Jun 18, 2007, at 6:50 PM, Mike Schrag wrote:

Yeah it seemed like it would be nicer going in, but once the  
content was in there it has been less than useful ... The one big  
benefit of it is that it's not going away any time soon, which  
can't necessarily be said of any place that might host a  
confluence for us.


ms

On Jun 18, 2007, at 6:45 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:


I also am less than thrilled with the WikiBook:

- the process of adding images is painful
- I am not sure if anything else can be added
- searching just the WO content is either not possible or not clear
- the markup is limited
- no one has control over the backups etc.

I have used Confluence quite a bit and find that to be much  
better for documenting technical material.


Chuck

On Jun 14, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

Agreed.  How do we (and I guess by we I mean everybody on this  
list) come to an agreement on the one place that should be the  
definitive posting grounds?  Honestly, I sometimes find  
navigating the wiki book less than ideal, but it's kind of a  
minor irritation that I can live with if it solves the problem  
of a central repository, and there's so much there already that  
it seems like the most logical place to me.  Whatever it is, it  
should be publicly editable, I think, and it has to be  
searchable and individual articles must be linkable.  Is anybody  
in disagreement that the wiki book is the best place ongoing to  
post information?  If so, can we start an effort to shuttle  
information posted elsewhere into the wiki book if it is  
missing?  If not, what are alternative suggestions for the  
central repository of information?


Thanks,
Mark

On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Dana Kashubeck wrote:


On 6/14/07 11:57 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:
My understanding is that the webobjects wiki book (http:// 
en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjects) is trying to  
become the central point of documentation for WebObjects that  
people post to.  There's already a ton of info there, but we  
all know it could use a ton more.  At WOWODC, when the experts  
panel was asked what could be done to help with project  
wonder, this is what they came back with immediately:  We need  
people writing documentation, and this is the place to put  
it.  Even if it's bad, there are so many people watching it  
that bad info will get edited out quickly.
I think there's a danger in having TOO many informational  
sites.  If everybody decides to wing it because they get on a  
high at a developer's conference regarding being able to  
document stuff to widen the movement, I think we will end up  
with dozens of blogs, half finished tutorials, etc.  There's a  
reason there isn't much documentation on Wonder and  
WebObjects:  writing good documentation is HARD and time  
consuming, and not a very glamorous task.  So if you have 10  
spare hours to write a decent article on a very specific  
issue, I think everybody would be better served if that went  
to the wikibook.  That way, everybody can always point to one  
resource as definitive.
I don't mean to be preachy about it or rain on anybody's  
parade that is putting up yet another site about WebObjects.   
What I just wrote might sound snappy or mean, but I don't mean  
it that way.  I'm just trying to advocate a central repository  
for everything so people don't have to go here and there to  
get various pieces of the overall puzzle.  Maybe if you start  
a site, you could also make sure that all of the contents of  
that site are also posted in the wiki book in the sensible  
place?  Thoughts?
I was thinking the same thing.  Last year there were some  
really great efforts to put together "the site" for WebObjects  
information.  I think it was this one:  http:// 
wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOCOM/WOCOM


So there's that wiki, the wiki book, www.wocommunity.org, etc.,  
etc.  I completely agree that there is a huge need for  
documentation and resources and it is important for the  
community to put these things together.  But right now  
everything just seems *so* scattered!  Can those who have been  
generous enough with their time please post their content on  
one of the already existing si

Re: Getting Started With WO site

[Steven Mark McCraw]

Well, then, should those of us who want a centralized repository  
focus on the confluence wiki?  I would be happy to volunteer a little  
time each day trying to organize the thing and bring content from the  
wiki book (and anywhere else I can get info with the author's  
permission) over to the confluence site if everybody is in agreement  
that this is the smart thing to do.


On Jun 18, 2007, at 6:50 PM, Mike Schrag wrote:

Yeah it seemed like it would be nicer going in, but once the  
content was in there it has been less than useful ... The one big  
benefit of it is that it's not going away any time soon, which  
can't necessarily be said of any place that might host a confluence  
for us.


ms

On Jun 18, 2007, at 6:45 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:


I also am less than thrilled with the WikiBook:

- the process of adding images is painful
- I am not sure if anything else can be added
- searching just the WO content is either not possible or not clear
- the markup is limited
- no one has control over the backups etc.

I have used Confluence quite a bit and find that to be much better  
for documenting technical material.


Chuck

On Jun 14, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

Agreed.  How do we (and I guess by we I mean everybody on this  
list) come to an agreement on the one place that should be the  
definitive posting grounds?  Honestly, I sometimes find  
navigating the wiki book less than ideal, but it's kind of a  
minor irritation that I can live with if it solves the problem of  
a central repository, and there's so much there already that it  
seems like the most logical place to me.  Whatever it is, it  
should be publicly editable, I think, and it has to be searchable  
and individual articles must be linkable.  Is anybody in  
disagreement that the wiki book is the best place ongoing to post  
information?  If so, can we start an effort to shuttle  
information posted elsewhere into the wiki book if it is  
missing?  If not, what are alternative suggestions for the  
central repository of information?


Thanks,
Mark

On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Dana Kashubeck wrote:


On 6/14/07 11:57 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:
My understanding is that the webobjects wiki book (http:// 
en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjects) is trying to  
become the central point of documentation for WebObjects that  
people post to.  There's already a ton of info there, but we  
all know it could use a ton more.  At WOWODC, when the experts  
panel was asked what could be done to help with project wonder,  
this is what they came back with immediately:  We need people  
writing documentation, and this is the place to put it.  Even  
if it's bad, there are so many people watching it that bad info  
will get edited out quickly.
I think there's a danger in having TOO many informational  
sites.  If everybody decides to wing it because they get on a  
high at a developer's conference regarding being able to  
document stuff to widen the movement, I think we will end up  
with dozens of blogs, half finished tutorials, etc.  There's a  
reason there isn't much documentation on Wonder and  
WebObjects:  writing good documentation is HARD and time  
consuming, and not a very glamorous task.  So if you have 10  
spare hours to write a decent article on a very specific issue,  
I think everybody would be better served if that went to the  
wikibook.  That way, everybody can always point to one resource  
as definitive.
I don't mean to be preachy about it or rain on anybody's parade  
that is putting up yet another site about WebObjects.  What I  
just wrote might sound snappy or mean, but I don't mean it that  
way.  I'm just trying to advocate a central repository for  
everything so people don't have to go here and there to get  
various pieces of the overall puzzle.  Maybe if you start a  
site, you could also make sure that all of the contents of that  
site are also posted in the wiki book in the sensible place?   
Thoughts?
I was thinking the same thing.  Last year there were some really  
great efforts to put together "the site" for WebObjects  
information.  I think it was this one:  http:// 
wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOCOM/WOCOM


So there's that wiki, the wiki book, www.wocommunity.org, etc.,  
etc.  I completely agree that there is a huge need for  
documentation and resources and it is important for the  
community to put these things together.  But right now  
everything just seems *so* scattered!  Can those who have been  
generous enough with their time please post their content on one  
of the already existing sites?


--
-
Dana Kashubeck
Systems Manager
Riemer Reporting Service Inc.
http://www.riemer.com

Phone: 440-835-2477 x. 125
Fax:   440-835-4594
-




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Re: Getting Started With WO site

[Chuck Hill]

Yes.  I confess that I was hoping for something more  
integrated.  :-)



On Jun 18, 2007, at 4:06 PM, David Holt wrote:


You can use Google search very effectively:

 site:en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjects

Just get rid of the < > and put in your own search string ;-)


On 18 Jun 2007, at 3:45 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:


- searching just the WO content is either not possible or not clear




--

Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their  
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific  
problems.

http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects





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Re: Getting Started With WO site

[David Holt]

You can use Google search very effectively:

 site:en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjects

Just get rid of the < > and put in your own search string ;-)


On 18 Jun 2007, at 3:45 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:


- searching just the WO content is either not possible or not clear


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D2W Screenshots

[Guido Neitzer]

Hi.

We had a brief discussion on the irc channel about D2W and I've put  
some screenshots of an application that is VERY much work in progress  
on a website.


There might be some more interested people, so I've put it on my iWeb  
site (which I haven't updated in quite a while ... argl).


The application is pretty bad localized at the moment, I just don't  
have the time to work on it. But perhaps you get some ideas from it:


http://web.mac.com/cug/iWeb/Kanada/D2W.html

Have fun.
Guido
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Re: Getting Started With WO site

[Mike Schrag]

Yeah it seemed like it would be nicer going in, but once the content  
was in there it has been less than useful ... The one big benefit of  
it is that it's not going away any time soon, which can't necessarily  
be said of any place that might host a confluence for us.


ms

On Jun 18, 2007, at 6:45 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:


I also am less than thrilled with the WikiBook:

- the process of adding images is painful
- I am not sure if anything else can be added
- searching just the WO content is either not possible or not clear
- the markup is limited
- no one has control over the backups etc.

I have used Confluence quite a bit and find that to be much better  
for documenting technical material.


Chuck

On Jun 14, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

Agreed.  How do we (and I guess by we I mean everybody on this  
list) come to an agreement on the one place that should be the  
definitive posting grounds?  Honestly, I sometimes find navigating  
the wiki book less than ideal, but it's kind of a minor irritation  
that I can live with if it solves the problem of a central  
repository, and there's so much there already that it seems like  
the most logical place to me.  Whatever it is, it should be  
publicly editable, I think, and it has to be searchable and  
individual articles must be linkable.  Is anybody in disagreement  
that the wiki book is the best place ongoing to post information?   
If so, can we start an effort to shuttle information posted  
elsewhere into the wiki book if it is missing?  If not, what are  
alternative suggestions for the central repository of information?


Thanks,
Mark

On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Dana Kashubeck wrote:


On 6/14/07 11:57 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:
My understanding is that the webobjects wiki book (http:// 
en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjects) is trying to  
become the central point of documentation for WebObjects that  
people post to.  There's already a ton of info there, but we all  
know it could use a ton more.  At WOWODC, when the experts panel  
was asked what could be done to help with project wonder, this  
is what they came back with immediately:  We need people writing  
documentation, and this is the place to put it.  Even if it's  
bad, there are so many people watching it that bad info will get  
edited out quickly.
I think there's a danger in having TOO many informational  
sites.  If everybody decides to wing it because they get on a  
high at a developer's conference regarding being able to  
document stuff to widen the movement, I think we will end up  
with dozens of blogs, half finished tutorials, etc.  There's a  
reason there isn't much documentation on Wonder and WebObjects:   
writing good documentation is HARD and time consuming, and not a  
very glamorous task.  So if you have 10 spare hours to write a  
decent article on a very specific issue, I think everybody would  
be better served if that went to the wikibook.  That way,  
everybody can always point to one resource as definitive.
I don't mean to be preachy about it or rain on anybody's parade  
that is putting up yet another site about WebObjects.  What I  
just wrote might sound snappy or mean, but I don't mean it that  
way.  I'm just trying to advocate a central repository for  
everything so people don't have to go here and there to get  
various pieces of the overall puzzle.  Maybe if you start a  
site, you could also make sure that all of the contents of that  
site are also posted in the wiki book in the sensible place?   
Thoughts?
I was thinking the same thing.  Last year there were some really  
great efforts to put together "the site" for WebObjects  
information.  I think it was this one:  http:// 
wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOCOM/WOCOM


So there's that wiki, the wiki book, www.wocommunity.org, etc.,  
etc.  I completely agree that there is a huge need for  
documentation and resources and it is important for the community  
to put these things together.  But right now everything just  
seems *so* scattered!  Can those who have been generous enough  
with their time please post their content on one of the already  
existing sites?


--
-
Dana Kashubeck
Systems Manager
Riemer Reporting Service Inc.
http://www.riemer.com

Phone: 440-835-2477 x. 125
Fax:   440-835-4594
-




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40global-village.net


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--

Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their  
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific  
problems.

http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects





___

Re: Getting Started With WO site

[Chuck Hill]

I also am less than thrilled with the WikiBook:

- the process of adding images is painful
- I am not sure if anything else can be added
- searching just the WO content is either not possible or not clear
- the markup is limited
- no one has control over the backups etc.

I have used Confluence quite a bit and find that to be much better  
for documenting technical material.


Chuck

On Jun 14, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

Agreed.  How do we (and I guess by we I mean everybody on this  
list) come to an agreement on the one place that should be the  
definitive posting grounds?  Honestly, I sometimes find navigating  
the wiki book less than ideal, but it's kind of a minor irritation  
that I can live with if it solves the problem of a central  
repository, and there's so much there already that it seems like  
the most logical place to me.  Whatever it is, it should be  
publicly editable, I think, and it has to be searchable and  
individual articles must be linkable.  Is anybody in disagreement  
that the wiki book is the best place ongoing to post information?   
If so, can we start an effort to shuttle information posted  
elsewhere into the wiki book if it is missing?  If not, what are  
alternative suggestions for the central repository of information?


Thanks,
Mark

On Jun 14, 2007, at 12:10 PM, Dana Kashubeck wrote:


On 6/14/07 11:57 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:
My understanding is that the webobjects wiki book (http:// 
en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjects) is trying to become  
the central point of documentation for WebObjects that people  
post to.  There's already a ton of info there, but we all know it  
could use a ton more.  At WOWODC, when the experts panel was  
asked what could be done to help with project wonder, this is  
what they came back with immediately:  We need people writing  
documentation, and this is the place to put it.  Even if it's  
bad, there are so many people watching it that bad info will get  
edited out quickly.
I think there's a danger in having TOO many informational sites.   
If everybody decides to wing it because they get on a high at a  
developer's conference regarding being able to document stuff to  
widen the movement, I think we will end up with dozens of blogs,  
half finished tutorials, etc.  There's a reason there isn't much  
documentation on Wonder and WebObjects:  writing good  
documentation is HARD and time consuming, and not a very  
glamorous task.  So if you have 10 spare hours to write a decent  
article on a very specific issue, I think everybody would be  
better served if that went to the wikibook.  That way, everybody  
can always point to one resource as definitive.
I don't mean to be preachy about it or rain on anybody's parade  
that is putting up yet another site about WebObjects.  What I  
just wrote might sound snappy or mean, but I don't mean it that  
way.  I'm just trying to advocate a central repository for  
everything so people don't have to go here and there to get  
various pieces of the overall puzzle.  Maybe if you start a site,  
you could also make sure that all of the contents of that site  
are also posted in the wiki book in the sensible place?  Thoughts?
I was thinking the same thing.  Last year there were some really  
great efforts to put together "the site" for WebObjects  
information.  I think it was this one:  http:// 
wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOCOM/WOCOM


So there's that wiki, the wiki book, www.wocommunity.org, etc.,  
etc.  I completely agree that there is a huge need for  
documentation and resources and it is important for the community  
to put these things together.  But right now everything just seems  
*so* scattered!  Can those who have been generous enough with  
their time please post their content on one of the already  
existing sites?


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Phone: 440-835-2477 x. 125
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Re: Getting Started With WO site

[Chuck Hill]

On Jun 14, 2007, at 11:10 AM, Michael Warner wrote:


The amount of brain power in the WO community is staggering.


Certainly when they get ejected from The Chieftain at closing time.  :-)


 This was confirmed when I attended the WOWODC session last Sunday  
and listened to the presenters.   Yet, IMESHO, there is something  
bogus about asking others to write documentation for you (see post  
below).   I HATE writing documentation and I am as guilty as the  
next person of not doing it.   Nevertheless, the difficulties in  
one's initial approach to WO, Project Wonder, etc.,  and  
difficulties in understanding and learning how to apply its (their)  
most powerful features are its central weakness.   And this  
weakness is in turn based on a problem that is endemic to Apple and  
WO -- the lack of the kind of documentation that clearly lays out  
the why, when and how of the WO way.


"there is something bogus about asking others to write documentation  
for you".  I agree, but you are misinterpreting my point at WOWODC.   
I am not asking people to create documentation for me.  I am asking  
them to create it for _themselves_ and others in their position.


The people who wrote the code don't need the documentation.  Most  
(all?) of the functionality released was not originally created for  
altruistic reasons.  It was created because someone who could create  
it also needed it.  What _they_ did not need was documentation.  I  
would be thrilled if everyone would provide JavaDocs, example code  
and tutorials.  I am not expecting this to happen.  These things take  
time to write well and the creators have already spent considerable  
time creating and releasing their work.  They have jobs to do, bills  
to pay.



Clearly written expository text can make practically all of WO and  
WO-related methods (including when and how to use them)  accessible  
to almost anyone.  The elegant design aspects of WO could similarly  
be revealed by way of thorough,  extensive text.  I argued a couple  
of years ago that a multiple volume non-virtual book would be the  
best way to go,  because in taking on such a project, the authors  
would have to develop a comprehensive sense of how all the specific  
bits of information fit together.   Moreover (perhaps I am too old  
school) there is a public-ness and permanence (of historical value)  
to a book,  a concrete thing that one can point others to, as a  
authoritative and centralized source.   Just imagine a 2-3 volume  
set sitting on the shelf of every Barnes and Noble.   Most  
responses to my suggestion at  that time were negative,  mostly  
based on the idea the such a project was impractical, which it  
probably is.


I suspect that it would be impractical, and it will certainly be   
painful.  You are looking at probably 3,000 to 3,500 hours to create  
these books.  Revenue at the top end will be about US$15,000.  That  
is around $5/hour.  Do you want the job?  I don't and I _like_  
writing documentation.



If I wanted to wax cynical,  I would say that making WO available  
to a wider audience is not a good idea -- people who were not smart  
enough to 'just get it'  (without documentation and examples) , or  
not stubborn  enough to approach things through extensive trial and  
error (my approach),  and who were unable to appreciate its  
brilliance and elegance,  might start using it -- the secrets of  
the inner sanctum would be revealed widely and soon all sorts of  
bad things might follow.


Based on past history they would just wander into the mailing list  
and start complaining.  :-)



A more/less ? practical suggestion might be this -- require as part  
of professional practice/protocol, that anyone who is developing  
applications like WO or who is writing methods to enhance WO be  
required to pair with a professional technical writer who's job it  
is to writie documentation.   It may well be that the developers  
themselves may not be the best people to write the docs -- besides,  
they won't do it anyway, as history has shown.


That does not seem very workable, given that we have very few people  
contributing and fewer still documenting.   If we say that anyone who  
wants to contribute something is obligated to document it (or have it  
documented)  we can expect the amount and quality of contribution to  
decrease.


I would like to see more documentation.  I am writing some, I will  
write more, I am helping with some other efforts.   But I see a lot  
more people willing to whine and ask that someone else write the  
documentation than I see actually contributing something.



Chuck



On Jun 14, 2007, at 8:57 AM, Steven Mark McCraw wrote:

My understanding is that the webobjects wiki book (http:// 
en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Programming:WebObjects) is trying to become  
the central point of documentation for WebObjects that people post  
to.  There's already a ton of info there, but we all know it could  
use a ton more.  At WOWODC, 

Re: irc channel

[Joshua Archer]

what's the suggested irc client for os x?

On Jun 18, 2007, at 2:49 PM, David Holt wrote:


It's unbelievable how much you're missing already :-)

heh heh (evil laughter)

d

--  
It's like driving a car at night. You never see further than your  
headlights, but you can make the whole trip that way.


E. L. Doctorow

from Sunbeams: http://www.thesunmagazine.org


On 18 Jun 2007, at 2:21 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:



On Jun 17, 2007, at 12:17 PM, David LeBer wrote:


Hello all,

I just registered a WebObjects irc channel: #webo on  
irc.freenode.net.


I figure all the cool kids are doing it...


No.  No.  Nooo.  :-P  Given my nature, I think I  
ought to stay far away from this.


What do you think about scheduling a set hour every week or two  
when we could all gather and chat.  I would be willing to show up  
for that.



Chuck


--

Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their  
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve  
specific problems.

http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects





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Re: A success story

[Chuck Hill]

Georg,

Thanks for posting this.  Stories like this are important to get  
people into WebObjects and to keep the faint of heart there.


Chuck


On Jun 11, 2007, at 11:52 PM, Georg Tuparev wrote:


WWDC times, rumor times :-)

No, folks, I am not starting yet another death of WO prediction. We  
had enough of them in the past. In contrary, for the folks that so  
often ask questions if it is worth starting to learn WO I'd like to  
write few encouraging words by describing how much our team was  
able to achieve just in 2-3 years. We delivered successfully three  
large systems, and a handful of smaller projects. I will describe  
with few words just the large projects.


1. Few years ago all large dutch banks agreed on a new standard for  
exchanging financial documents (invoices, statements, dunning  
letters, orders, and finance reports), and corresponding protocols  
for initiating transactions if documents require it (e.g. payment  
of an invoice). The exchange of documents takes place between banks  
and other large organizations (e.g. insurance and utility  
companies, large online retailers, etc.) Receiver of these  
documents are the users of the electronic (web-based) banking  
software. Two ASPs received a license to act as clearing houses for  
these documents, and for one of them (bluem.nl) we wrote the  
software. It is expected that after the system is adopted by all  
banks (hopefully within 12 months) it will generate transactions  
worth tens of billions of euros every year.
The system already runs for about half year, and we add new  
features each month. Apple Netherlands put the story on their site  
a while ago. If you can read dutch, here it is:

http://www.apple.com/nl/business/profiles/bluem/index.html
Probably everyone can imagine the complexity of the system, so I  
will not go into further details. Will only mention that the  
combined developer teams implementing just the simple interface for  
the banks had many orders of magnitude more developers, and  
required more time than our team.


2. Again together with Bluem we developed and deployed already  
twice a telecom billing and online data presentment and analyses  
system that takes raw call data, prepares invoices, phone  
statements, and statistics and make them available to the users in  
PDF and csv formats, or online.


3. We finished the first phase of a system to control a network of  
robotic astronomical observatories. As far as we know, this is not  
only the first and only such software for Mac, but it has many  
unique features not seen with any other astronomy package. Few  
weeks ago MacResearch published a short interview about this:
http://www.macresearch.org/ 
macs_in_astronomy_an_interview_with_georg_tuparev
Tomorrow at the WWDC we will present a poster about MONET (Sci.  
Dev. Poster session at 6:30) and will be happy to tell you more or  
give you a short demo.


In addition to these projects we will be releasing several new  
applications.


Here few facts about our team and the technologies we use...
1. Team size: started with 5 developers, now 12.
2. We are agile. XP is what we love, but cannot manage 100%
3. We use a mixture of WO, Cocoa, C, and scripts. On average WO is  
about 50%, and Cocoa - 30%. but this varies from project to project.

4. Database is always FrontBase
5. We use Xcode only (and hope not to use Eclipse, but this seams  
less and less possible)
6. We do not use Wonder directly (because we started long time ago  
and use somehow incompatible design), but we learn constantly from  
it, and borrow many ideas


We are following very closely new developments, and we are very  
confident, that we could not finish the simplest of the projects I  
mentioned above if we had to use other technologies or frameworks.  
For this we are very very thankful to all these fantastic and smart  
folks at Apple!!! Also we are very thankful to many folks on this  
list, who either directly or indirectly helped us with concrete  
problems or just with their contributions. Very special thanks to  
Chuck, Mike, and Anjo!!! We hope in the future to have a bit more  
time and to be able to start posting again to this list, or  
contributing by making parts of our software available to the  
community.


enjoy the WWDC

Georg Tuparev
Tuparev Technologies
Klipper 13
1186 VR Amstelveen
The Netherlands


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Re: irc channel

[Dana Kashubeck]

On 6/18/07 5:21 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:


On Jun 17, 2007, at 12:17 PM, David LeBer wrote:


Hello all,

I just registered a WebObjects irc channel: #webo on irc.freenode.net.

I figure all the cool kids are doing it...


No.  No.  Nooo.  :-P  Given my nature, I think I ought 
to stay far away from this.


What do you think about scheduling a set hour every week or two when we 
could all gather and chat.  I would be willing to show up for that.
Given all the different time zones involved, I think that's going to be 
difficult.


Someone mentioned maybe creating a public transcript available . . .


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Dana Kashubeck
Systems Manager
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http://www.riemer.com

Phone: 440-835-2477 x. 125
Fax:   440-835-4594
-

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Re: irc channel

[David Holt]

It's unbelievable how much you're missing already :-)

heh heh (evil laughter)

d

--  
It's like driving a car at night. You never see further than your  
headlights, but you can make the whole trip that way.


E. L. Doctorow

from Sunbeams: http://www.thesunmagazine.org


On 18 Jun 2007, at 2:21 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:



On Jun 17, 2007, at 12:17 PM, David LeBer wrote:


Hello all,

I just registered a WebObjects irc channel: #webo on  
irc.freenode.net.


I figure all the cool kids are doing it...


No.  No.  Nooo.  :-P  Given my nature, I think I  
ought to stay far away from this.


What do you think about scheduling a set hour every week or two  
when we could all gather and chat.  I would be willing to show up  
for that.



Chuck


--

Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their  
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific  
problems.

http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects





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Re: irc channel

[Chuck Hill]

On Jun 17, 2007, at 12:17 PM, David LeBer wrote:


Hello all,

I just registered a WebObjects irc channel: #webo on irc.freenode.net.

I figure all the cool kids are doing it...


No.  No.  Nooo.  :-P  Given my nature, I think I  
ought to stay far away from this.


What do you think about scheduling a set hour every week or two when  
we could all gather and chat.  I would be willing to show up for that.



Chuck


--

Practical WebObjects - for developers who want to increase their  
overall knowledge of WebObjects or who are trying to solve specific  
problems.

http://www.global-village.net/products/practical_webobjects





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Re: WWDC photos (WebObjects Lab + Bash)

[Chuck Hill]

On Jun 18, 2007, at 9:33 AM, Asa Hardcastle wrote:

Although the trek to the Apple campus can give one time to reflect,  
it did cut the party a little short in years past, especially as  
the number of developers attending has been increasing  
dramatically.   I am glad to avoid the bus ride.


As for this year, I thought the music was great, the food was  
great, and the party was fun.  What made it mac-ish enough for me  
were all of the developers present.


Can't get much more Mac-ish than 7,000 developers!



My thoughts for next year's bash would be:
 * Bring back the beer from around the world pavilion


OK, that I did miss.  I did not want complain (free beer and all...)  
but better beer would have been better.


Chuck


 * Extend the time - we're Apple developers, we play as hard as we  
work.
 * Tell us who is playing ahead of time.  With acts like Ozamatli  
you want to have some time to prepare for dancing!



later,

asa



On Jun 18, 2007, at 12:03 PM, Janine Sisk wrote:

I agree the location wasn't very Mac-ish, but I don't think that  
many people would have fit on campus, not to mention the cost of  
the additional busses over last year.  So I think it was something  
they had to do.


And I thought the music was great, better than last year. To each  
their own. :)  The bottom line is that some people will be unhappy  
no matter what they do, so it's all about tradeoffs.


janine

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Re: Duplicate objects in a relationship

[Chuck Hill]

On Jun 17, 2007, at 4:22 PM, Simon McLean wrote:


Hi Chuck - I am using inheritance, but of the single table variety:


Is the restricting qualifier unique across all entities?  Do the  
abstract ones have a restricting qualifier?


Yes, and yes.


I still somewhat suspect an inheritance issue, or an inheritance  
modelling issue.  Have you looked at the SQL generated when the fault  
for this relationship is fired?  That may provide a clue.





Client has a parent called AbstractOrganisation, EmployeeRole has  
a parent called AbstractUserRole which are mapped to  
ABSTRACT_ORGANISATION and ABSTRACT_USER_ROLE tables. The  
problematic relationship is inherited from the parent - so  
getRoles() actually returns an array of AbstractUserRoles, and  
the reverse relationship getOrganisation() returns an  
AbstractOrganisation.


I tried moving the relationships from the parent down to the  
child objects, but I get the same behavior. I've also checked the  
tables for duplicate PK's but there aren't any.


Iterate over the objects in client.getRoles() and print out  
getClass().getName(), entityName(), and hashCode() on each.  I  
suspect you may get a surprise.


Here is the output:

com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
5627611
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
10105184
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
2082210
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
5627611
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
10105184
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
2082210
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
5627611
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
10105184
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
2082210
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
5627611
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
10105184
com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
EmployeeRole
2082210

Which suggests there are definitely duplicates in there.

I've also noticed that not all Client objects are affected. In  
fact, it looks like only a handful are. I guess this points to a  
data error ?


I have no idea what is wrong, but I remain suspicious of how you have  
modeled/implemented inheritance.  Is there any chance that the  
restricting qualifiers may match more than one sub-class?


Chuck

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Re: WWDC

[Dana Kashubeck]

On 6/18/07 4:26 PM, Chuck Hill wrote:


On Jun 16, 2007, at 7:14 AM, Dana Kashubeck wrote:


On 6/16/07 8:28 AM, Don Guernsey wrote:
What WO needs - Cocoa! An Objective-C WO anyone?? I would love to 
have the GUI

stuff, the builder, and everything else from Cocoa.

Then all you need is a time machine -- and not the one in Leopard.

I would absolutely *love* to see WO go back to Objective-C.  WO 
started out Objective-C and it was perfect for anyone who already had 
Objective-C frameworks and wanted to utilize them on their web site. 
Then they added Java support alongside Objective-C, then they dropped 
Objective-C altogether.


For the first year or two after it moved to Java I would have agreed 
with you.  Now with all the Java libraries available, I am quite content 
in Java-land.  A lessor language (IMO) but a larger universe.
Come on now, there must be *some* third-party Objective-C frameworks 
available for web development.  Oh, wait . . . no.


I didn't mean to imply that Apple /should/ go back to Objective-C.  I 
totally see the reasoning and like I said, it makes perfect business 
sense.  Just sucks for those of us whose business logic is in 
Objective-C frameworks.  Personally?  Yes, I'd love to see a return. 
But I'm a realist and I don't believe it will ever happen.


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Re: WWDC

[Chuck Hill]

On Jun 16, 2007, at 4:21 PM, Andrew Lindesay wrote:


What WO needs - Cocoa! An Objective-C WO anyone?? I would love to  
have the GUI

stuff, the builder, and everything else from Cocoa.


I'm doing a really neat project with a Cocoa front-end backed by a  
WebObjects application-server.  My framework (http:// 
homepage.mac.com/andrewlindesay/le/page_lestuff.html) introduces a  
JSON-RPC request handler into the WOA and then I have written a  
Cocoa library which is essentially a JSON-RPC client.  The client  
knows how to deal with GID's, one-way transport of EO's from the  
server to the client etc...


IMHO it would be bad thing for WO to have anything to do with  
Objective-C and to me it does not seem necessary just to get a  
desktop app front-ending a WO application.


Until this year, I had been thinking that WO needed a Cocoa front  
end.  Now that I have seen WebKit apps etc, that seems like a better  
(read cross platform) solution.  Andrew is on the right track here.  
IMHO.



Chuck

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Re: WWDC

[Chuck Hill]

On Jun 16, 2007, at 7:14 AM, Dana Kashubeck wrote:


On 6/16/07 8:28 AM, Don Guernsey wrote:
What WO needs - Cocoa! An Objective-C WO anyone?? I would love to  
have the GUI

stuff, the builder, and everything else from Cocoa.

Then all you need is a time machine -- and not the one in Leopard.

I would absolutely *love* to see WO go back to Objective-C.  WO  
started out Objective-C and it was perfect for anyone who already  
had Objective-C frameworks and wanted to utilize them on their web  
site. Then they added Java support alongside Objective-C, then they  
dropped Objective-C altogether.


For the first year or two after it moved to Java I would have agreed  
with you.  Now with all the Java libraries available, I am quite  
content in Java-land.  A lessor language (IMO) but a larger universe.


Chuck


Although it makes my life increasingly more difficult, I can see  
why they did it and I would hazard a guess that they won't ever go  
back.  At the time Java was as hot as Ruby is now and I'm sure the  
decision was based upon trying to get more market share. Since  
they've already ported from Objective-C to Java, I doubt they'll  
port back to Objective-C . . . unless, that is, they are still  
maintaining their own Objective-C version and decide to release  
it.  That seems like a lot of work, though.


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Re: Hibernate

[Dov Rosenberg]

When I mentioned incorporating Project Wonder - I really meant some of the
ideas embodied in the frameworks that the team has brought forward. Things
like additional qualifiers, multiple db connections, synchronization, better
lock management, etc. It would be even better if Apple would donate some
time from a decent tech writer to help out on some WO based open source
projects. Probably wouldn't take them very long to make a big impact.

As I mentioned before - Hibernate is a lot lower level and not nearly as
elegant as EOF in terms of how it does things. But it does provide a lower
level of control that EOF does not provide without abandoning the benefits
of EOF.

Any tool without an active development team (either paid or open source) is
going to stagnate and eventually wither. It is not enough to throw a little
fertilizer on it once a year.

Dov Rosenberg




On 6/18/07 4:09 PM, "Chuck Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Jun 15, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Dov Rosenberg wrote:
> 
>> I think the WO community is a very strong one. I have been using WO
>> since 1996. While Hibernate has a big learning curve to it ­ it has
>> also made a lot of forward progress in comparison to EOF.
> 
> That is probably as it started out with very little done and EOF has
> been pretty much done for a long time.
> 
> 
>> There are still a lot of things I like about EOF including having a
>> centralized place to look for model information versus storing it
>> in annotations inside the Java files, and the handling of
>> relationships, and key value coding to name a few. But not having
>> native support for databases like DB2, lack of easy to use
>> connection pooling (there are some things that can be done), a
>> richer set of Qualifiers, etc. Project Wonder should be
>> incorporated into EOF/WO ASAP by Apple.
> 
> You want to make Open Source code into Closed Source code?  That is
> nuts.  With Wonder we can see how it works, fix it if it is broken,
> and extend it.  I would like _less_ in the core frameworks.
> Particularly, I would like less bugs.  And work is well underway in
> that area.
> 
> 
>> The choice to move away from WO/EOF is a hard one ­ it is still one
>> of the most well designed frameworks on the market (we have looked
>> at a lot of them over the past few months) - it is hard to believe
>> that it is 12 years old already. The core group of the WO community
>> including Chuck, Mike, and the gang have been a huge help. I think
>> in some respects having a smaller group of users actually makes the
>> group more cohesive and less fragmented. It has been my experience
>> that the average WO/EOF developer is much more technically
>> competent that other groups of developers. Maybe it is my biased
>> opinion.
> 
> I agree and suspect there is some correlation between being more
> technically competent and choosing to use WO.  But I am biased.
> 
> 
>> The last major upgrade to EOF was the daylight savings time update.
>> Before that was probably the move to 5.0 from 4.x. I still love WO.
>> I just wish Apple would give it more respect and realize that the
>> rest of the world would benefit from it.
> 
> Usually I would say, "Don't hold your breath.".  But this year that
> might be a safe thing to do.  ;-)
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 
>> On 6/15/07 4:33 PM, "Jeremy Rosenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On 15-Jun-07, at 12:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> wrote:
 
 1. Is EOF going to support JPA (Java Persistence Architecture)
 anytime soon?
 2. Is direct support for connection pooling going to be implemented?
 3. Any word on open source status?
 
 
 We have been seriously investigating Hibernate. Hibernate has
 mountains of
 documentation (it seems to be very complex in comparison to EOF)
 and a
 pretty vibrant developer community. We are also considering JSF as a
 replacement for the WebObjects components. The move would not be
 easy but in
 light of the lack of news I don't think we have a lot of choice
 from a
 business perspective.
 
 Any news is good news.
 
 Dov Rosenberg
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One of my colleagues has been using Hibernate because he's part of
>>> an open source project that requires him to find a solution
>>> outside of WebObjects.  He bitches about missing EOF almost daily
>>> (and that's after a year of working with it).  If there is no
>>> technological reason for you to leave WebObjects then it would be
>>> a mistake to do so.  If your concern is that you feel Hibernate or
>>> JSF has a more vibrant community then WebObjects then I think your
>>> concern is unfounded.  I'd be surprised if any community based
>>> initiative has a more committed core than WebObjects and that
>>> includes the dozens of developers within Apple projects, like
>>> iTunes and the Apple Store (I got that from Wikipedia, not from
>>> any specific knowledge gained at WWDC under NDA).
>>> 
>>> There's lots of news and it's all good news for any

Re: Hibernate

[Chuck Hill]

On Jun 15, 2007, at 2:06 PM, Dov Rosenberg wrote:

I think the WO community is a very strong one. I have been using WO  
since 1996. While Hibernate has a big learning curve to it – it has  
also made a lot of forward progress in comparison to EOF.


That is probably as it started out with very little done and EOF has  
been pretty much done for a long time.



There are still a lot of things I like about EOF including having a  
centralized place to look for model information versus storing it  
in annotations inside the Java files, and the handling of  
relationships, and key value coding to name a few. But not having  
native support for databases like DB2, lack of easy to use  
connection pooling (there are some things that can be done), a  
richer set of Qualifiers, etc. Project Wonder should be  
incorporated into EOF/WO ASAP by Apple.


You want to make Open Source code into Closed Source code?  That is  
nuts.  With Wonder we can see how it works, fix it if it is broken,  
and extend it.  I would like _less_ in the core frameworks.   
Particularly, I would like less bugs.  And work is well underway in  
that area.



The choice to move away from WO/EOF is a hard one – it is still one  
of the most well designed frameworks on the market (we have looked  
at a lot of them over the past few months) - it is hard to believe  
that it is 12 years old already. The core group of the WO community  
including Chuck, Mike, and the gang have been a huge help. I think  
in some respects having a smaller group of users actually makes the  
group more cohesive and less fragmented. It has been my experience  
that the average WO/EOF developer is much more technically  
competent that other groups of developers. Maybe it is my biased  
opinion.


I agree and suspect there is some correlation between being more  
technically competent and choosing to use WO.  But I am biased.



The last major upgrade to EOF was the daylight savings time update.  
Before that was probably the move to 5.0 from 4.x. I still love WO.  
I just wish Apple would give it more respect and realize that the  
rest of the world would benefit from it.


Usually I would say, "Don't hold your breath.".  But this year that  
might be a safe thing to do.  ;-)


Chuck


On 6/15/07 4:33 PM, "Jeremy Rosenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
wrote:




On 15-Jun-07, at 12:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:


1. Is EOF going to support JPA (Java Persistence Architecture)  
anytime soon?

2. Is direct support for connection pooling going to be implemented?
3. Any word on open source status?


We have been seriously investigating Hibernate. Hibernate has  
mountains of
documentation (it seems to be very complex in comparison to EOF)  
and a

pretty vibrant developer community. We are also considering JSF as a
replacement for the WebObjects components. The move would not be  
easy but in
light of the lack of news I don't think we have a lot of choice  
from a

business perspective.

Any news is good news.

Dov Rosenberg



One of my colleagues has been using Hibernate because he's part of  
an open source project that requires him to find a solution  
outside of WebObjects.  He bitches about missing EOF almost daily  
(and that's after a year of working with it).  If there is no  
technological reason for you to leave WebObjects then it would be  
a mistake to do so.  If your concern is that you feel Hibernate or  
JSF has a more vibrant community then WebObjects then I think your  
concern is unfounded.  I'd be surprised if any community based  
initiative has a more committed core than WebObjects and that  
includes the dozens of developers within Apple projects, like  
iTunes and the Apple Store (I got that from Wikipedia, not from  
any specific knowledge gained at WWDC under NDA).


There's lots of news and it's all good news for anyone who hopes  
to continue working in WebObjects.


A wise man once said that there is nothing in the NDA against  
saying that you are happy, and I am very happy. :)


Jeremy






Jeremy Rosenberg
Systems Consultant
Academic Computing Services
Simon Fraser University
Burnaby, BC, Canada V5A 1S6

Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

"AMAINT, provisioning good times since 1994!"




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Re: News from Webobjecs sessions

[Chuck Hill]

I missed the first minutes, but I did not hear anyone demand that it  
be Open Sourced or moved back to Objective-C.  That is the first time  
in several years!



On Jun 15, 2007, at 10:54 AM, Gavin Eadie wrote:


At 8:14 AM -0500 6/12/07, James Cicenia wrote:

Can we at least get a nugget like..

things are happening?
same as it always is.. nothing new.. just opensource.




We just finished the WebObjects Feedback session, about forty  
questions and suggestions to the Apple people up front.  What was  
different this year was that the audience and the stage were in  
synch - there was very little criticism of Apple, and what there  
was seemed reasonable and constructive (especially mine!).


As others have said, WWDC attendees are not allowed to disclose any  
of the material content of the presentations, but I'll join others  
here in saying things are looking good, in offering my thanks to  
the Apple team for making this year different, and to key members  
of our non-Apple community who have done heroic work this year.


We asked for a short note to this list from an Apple person - they  
can't disclose certain things either, but they know how close they  
can get to the line and stay safe!


A++
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Re: How to set a higher response timeout?

[Chuck Hill]

On Jun 14, 2007, at 6:34 AM, Helmut Schottmüller wrote:

It is working if I am defining proper values for the send/receive/ 
connect timeouts of my application instances in JavaMonitor, but  
it's not working while I am using my application in Direct Connect  
mode. I thought I could change it with the send/receive/connect  
timouts in the Site preferences in JavaMonitor but this has  
obviously no effect on Direct Connect.


Any hints for Direct Connect settings?


I don't think that is Direct Connect that you are using.   Direct  
Connect pretty much never times out.  And as Direct Connect is, well,  
direct, no such setting exist.  I suspect that you are running it  
through Apache in development mode.  Launch your app and go to http:// 
localhost:1085 to verify this.  I think that even if you run through  
Apache in development mode, the adaptor defaults will not work.  I  
thought that I had this working at one point, but I don't recall  
how.  You probably have to "deploy" it locally.


Chuck



Am 14.06.2007 um 14:07 schrieb Helmut Schottmüller:


Hi,

I'm doing some very time intensive calculations for a database  
import. After 30 seconds, my browser window only shows "No  
instance available" and I'm getting a warning that there was an  
exception while sending response: java.net.SocketException: Broken  
pipe.


Where can I set a higher response timeout? Is this a WO property  
or is it a JavaMonitor property?


I tried to set the send and receive timeouts in JavaMonitor but  
this had no effect. The output always stops after 30 secs.


Can anyone point me in the correct direction?

Thanks,

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Re: [ANN] Tying my hands...

[Chuck Hill]

Paolo,

Trust me, it is dead.  Dead. Dead. Dead.  Dead like stone.  Move to  
Eclipse or you will regret your delay.


Chuck


On Jun 13, 2007, at 2:52 PM, Paolo Sommaruga wrote:


at

http://lists.apple.com/archives/webobjects-dev/2006/Aug/msg01144.html

one can read

Apple's strategy is to make WebObjects the best server-side runtime  
environment we can by:

- Improving performance, manageability, and standards compliance
- Making WO work well with ANT and the most popular IDEs, including  
Xcode and Eclipse


"including Xcode" doesn't mean that Xcode development for  
WebObjects is dead. The announce claims only the future lack of the  
WO developer tools based on Java bridge


Paolo

Il giorno 13/giu/07, alle ore 23:25, Guido Neitzer ha scritto:


On 13.06.2007, at 14:13, Paolo Sommaruga wrote:


I hope it works in a Xcode too


Xcode development for WebObjects is dead. Get over it. Don't  
expect ANY new development to work with it. It's history. Out of  
the game. Nada. Apple said that a year ago.


cug
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Re: WO 5.3.3/Tiger/No template found for component

[Chuck Hill]

On Jun 12, 2007, at 9:57 AM, Rick Innis wrote:


Hey people,

I'm in the process of moving some applications from Jaguar to  
Tiger. Most of them work fine, but two of them are giving me grief.  
Specifically, I'm getting no content back from them (though curl  
confirms that I'm getting a 200 response code from the server), and  
on the first connection attempt, the message "No template found for  
component" appears in the log file. However, they run fine on  
Jaguar (WO5.2.1)


Take a closer look at the app log.  Are these direct actions?  My  
suspicions would lie in API and JDK version changes.  The "No  
template found for component" may or may not indicated a problem,  
depending on what component it is for.



From some previous searching I believe this may be connected to the  
fact that the applications affected are both localized, so the  
template it's looking exists in Contents/Resources/ 
{French,English}.lproj but not in Contents/Resources. However, I've  
yet to find the insight that allows me to resolve this. Any  
assistance would be greatly appreciated.



Have you checked the build product to ensure that the templates are  
really there and the .html and .wod files are present?  Are you  
getting this error in development or deployment?


Chuck


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Notification between EODataContext using project wonder today

[Andreas Hjortsberg]

Hello,
Using WO 532

I have to ways of booking transactions through my application. One by direct 
actions which uses only one single EOEditingContext and the other one which is 
a component, a separate EOEditingContext for every Session. 

This is nothing strange I suppose. The problem occurs then two transactions 
that share data is updated at exactly the same time, and I mean data on a row 
level in the database.
 
It is extremely rare that it happens, once every second year or so but it is a 
big problem. 

One solution is be to book all my transactions through direct actions, this 
will solve my problems for now, but in a while we will start with multiple 
instances and then my strategy will fail as then I need to synchronize  the 
contexts between different instances.

So whats the best approach for this matter, Is there away to notify my other 
contexts that the data has been changed as it don't seem to happen today?. 
Should I use locking? I thouth project wonder was handle that issue?  Or should 
I always invalidate the target object but then I always will invalidate the 
object for every transaction. Can I use changesFromSnapShot  together with 
comittedSnapShotForObject to check if my object has been altered in another 
context? 


Any  thoughts's

Regards
/Andreas

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Re: WWDC photos (WebObjects Lab + Bash)

[David LeBer]

On 18-Jun-07, at 12:33 PM, Asa Hardcastle wrote:

Although the trek to the Apple campus can give one time to reflect,  
it did cut the party a little short in years past, especially as  
the number of developers attending has been increasing  
dramatically.   I am glad to avoid the bus ride.


As for this year, I thought the music was great, the food was  
great, and the party was fun.  What made it mac-ish enough for me  
were all of the developers present.


My thoughts for next year's bash would be:
 * Bring back the beer from around the world pavilion
 * Extend the time - we're Apple developers, we play as hard as we  
work.
 * Tell us who is playing ahead of time.  With acts like Ozamatli  
you want to have some time to prepare for dancing!


I also missed the technology specific zones... and the buttons :-)

--
;david

--
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Codeferous Software
'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing'
site:   http://codeferous.com
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Re: WWDC photos (WebObjects Lab + Bash)

[Asa Hardcastle]

Although the trek to the Apple campus can give one time to reflect,  
it did cut the party a little short in years past, especially as the  
number of developers attending has been increasing dramatically.   I  
am glad to avoid the bus ride.


As for this year, I thought the music was great, the food was great,  
and the party was fun.  What made it mac-ish enough for me were all  
of the developers present.


My thoughts for next year's bash would be:
 * Bring back the beer from around the world pavilion
 * Extend the time - we're Apple developers, we play as hard as we  
work.
 * Tell us who is playing ahead of time.  With acts like Ozamatli  
you want to have some time to prepare for dancing!



later,

asa



On Jun 18, 2007, at 12:03 PM, Janine Sisk wrote:

I agree the location wasn't very Mac-ish, but I don't think that  
many people would have fit on campus, not to mention the cost of  
the additional busses over last year.  So I think it was something  
they had to do.


And I thought the music was great, better than last year. To each  
their own. :)  The bottom line is that some people will be unhappy  
no matter what they do, so it's all about tradeoffs.


janine

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Re: WWDC photos (WebObjects Lab + Bash)

[Janine Sisk]

I agree the location wasn't very Mac-ish, but I don't think that many  
people would have fit on campus, not to mention the cost of the  
additional busses over last year.  So I think it was something they  
had to do.


And I thought the music was great, better than last year. To each  
their own. :)  The bottom line is that some people will be unhappy no  
matter what they do, so it's all about tradeoffs.


janine

On Jun 17, 2007, at 8:51 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote:


Hi!

  I didn't like it very much. The music was really bad. The place  
is cool, but it's not Mac-related. I live in Portugal, far far away  
from the "mother-ship". Last year it was great to see it, be there,  
notice the small details, like the pixelized fonts and Cairo icons  
around, etc. There's obviously something special about that place  
(at least for non-Apple employees!). Yerba buena is a really cool  
garden, but it's that kind of place that could be there, or  
anywhere else, and it wouldn't make a difference...


  I actually sent an email before to ADC asking why there was no  
Apple Campus Bash this year, and asking if I could grab a car and  
go there. They only said the campus was closed to visitors, but  
they did not say why there was no bash there. I think the +5000  
attendees is the answer. BTW, Moscone is getting a little too small  
for all this people... where will the WWDC be in three or four  
years, if they continue to grow up in a 2000 attendee/year ratio!?


  Yours

Miguel Arroz


On 2007/06/17, at 07:10, Alexander Spohr wrote:


Cliff,

any info on why there is no more Campus Bash?
To many busses needed? (Environment)
Bad behavior of guests? (Lurking for Prototypes)

How was the SF Bash compared to the Campus Bash?

atze


Am 16.06.2007 um 22:57 schrieb Cliff Tuel:

WWDC was a great success this year!  Thanks to everyone who  
came.  Here's
some photos of the packed WebObjects Lab, and Thursday's bash.   
Sorry I

couldn't take more -- I was supposed to be working. :-)

 

--
Cliff Tuel . http://apple.com/services/technicalsupport


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Freeport & Soliversum
Alexander Spohr
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RE: Duplicate objects in a relationship

[Ruenagel, Frank]

Hi,

do you prefetch massively? I can remember a similar case that
I used "setPrefetchingRelationshipKeyPaths" with many and
long keypaths; this results in Duplicates and Triplicates...
The model was simple: no inheritance, the pks where unique.
Everythings works fine after I prefetch manually (looping)

The problem has something to do with:
An Entity appears multipe times in different 
long prefetching-keypaths in one PrefetchingRelationshipKeyPaths-Array.


Frank




> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> pple.com]O
> n Behalf Of Simon McLean
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 1:23 AM
> To: Chuck Hill
> Cc: WebObjects Dev Apple
> Subject: Re: Duplicate objects in a relationship
> 
> 
> >> Hi Chuck - I am using inheritance, but of the single table variety:
> >
> > Is the restricting qualifier unique across all entities?  Do the  
> > abstract ones have a restricting qualifier?
> 
> Yes, and yes.
> 
> >> Client has a parent called AbstractOrganisation, EmployeeRole has  
> >> a parent called AbstractUserRole which are mapped to  
> >> ABSTRACT_ORGANISATION and ABSTRACT_USER_ROLE tables. The  
> >> problematic relationship is inherited from the parent - so 
> getRoles 
> >> () actually returns an array of AbstractUserRoles, and the 
> reverse  
> >> relationship getOrganisation() returns an AbstractOrganisation.
> >>
> >> I tried moving the relationships from the parent down to 
> the child  
> >> objects, but I get the same behavior. I've also checked 
> the tables  
> >> for duplicate PK's but there aren't any.
> >
> > Iterate over the objects in client.getRoles() and print out 
> getClass 
> > ().getName(), entityName(), and hashCode() on each.  I suspect you  
> > may get a surprise.
> 
> Here is the output:
> 
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 5627611
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 10105184
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 2082210
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 5627611
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 10105184
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 2082210
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 5627611
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 10105184
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 2082210
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 5627611
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 10105184
> com.clicktravel.travelsystem.EmployeeRole
> EmployeeRole
> 2082210
> 
> Which suggests there are definitely duplicates in there.
> 
> I've also noticed that not all Client objects are affected. In fact,  
> it looks like only a handful are. I guess this points to a 
> data error ?
> 
> Simon
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Framework version how to - need help

[Amedeo Mantica]

Hello,

I have made a framework and I use it with my woapps, now, I have  
upgraded my framework and the new version is not compatible with my  
previous woapp.


I think i can have multimple version inside a framework named A, B,  
C, etc...


But I don't know how to

Can anyone help me?

Thanks
Amedeo
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Re: Duplicate objects in a relationship

[Paul Lynch]

On 18 Jun 2007, at 00:22, Simon McLean wrote:


Which suggests there are definitely duplicates in there.

I've also noticed that not all Client objects are affected. In  
fact, it looks like only a handful are. I guess this points to a  
data error ?


Whereas I agree with Chuck that the most likely problem is to do with  
inheritance, I have also seen duplicated objects in a relationship in  
other circumstances.  The one that comes to mind is if I have a  
duplicate primary key value in one of the tables; duplicate PKs can  
have massive effects on EOF, far more than you might at first imagine.


It would be worth checking your tables for integrity.

Paul

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