Re: [libreoffice-website] How to avoid a pressure cooker situation in the meeting

[Varun Mittal]

+1




Thank You

Best Regards
Varun Mittal 

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On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Narayan Aras wrote:

>
> Hi Mike, David, all-
>
> The agenda has 10 topics. Too many for a 1 hour session.
> (http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/ConfCall/Agenda).
>
> We will have only 5 minutes to settle each topic.
>
> The discussions will not be conclusive in this pressure cooker situation.
> Then we will come to the "storm" (or "fission") stage even before we
> realize! :)
>
> Having a series of calls is not feasible, as that approach needs a lot of
> time.
> Besides, we are finding it difficult to set up this FIRST call itself.
> So setting up so many calls till we trash out all issues is virtually
> impossible.
>
> Therefore, it is best to settle at least the fundamental differences
> offline.
> That leaves the main meeting to settle finer details, and to ratify what
> was agreed offline.
>
> Assuming that we agree to use an offline tool to argue our case, the next
> question is "which tool"?
>
> Well, the simplest tool (which is also readily available) is a wiki
> discussion page.
>
> However, it cannot handle counterarguments that have to be attached to a
> specific part of someone else's statement. Also, when in a multi-person
> argument, it would quickly become confusing who is opposing whose views
> fully/party/conditionally.
>
> In other words, it cannot create an argument map properly. (Which is the
> need of the hour).
>
> A concept map does that extremely well.
>
> Another advantage of a Concept map is that it also allows us to split a
> larger issue, and discuss the parts separately and then combine the
> conclusions again.
>
> Concept map also allows us to interrelate different streams of arguments as
> the plot gets larger with more and more arguments added. Note that no other
> tool is good at this.
>
> Therefore I suggest using a concept map tool like CMAP, Freemind,
> graphmind. or even brainstorm.
>
> Someone will need to set up this tool temporarily.
>
> What do you think?
>
> If you have any doubt, we could try out one (contentious) topic on a wiki
> discussion page.
>
>
> Regards,
> Narayan
>
>
> > Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:11:33 +0930
> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: new
> features  page ...
> > From: mich...@wheatland.com.au
> > To: website@libreoffice.org
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 3:41 AM, Charles Marcus
> >  wrote:
> > > On 2011-01-17 8:39 AM, David Nelson wrote:
> > >> But I see a chance to bring him back into the mainstream of the
> > >> project by encouraging him (and his "Drupal boys") to take a leading
> > >> role in the development of the SilverStripe website as a superb
> > >> communications and marketing tool for Libreoffice and TDF.
> > >
> > > I also think that, if Michael were so inclined, Drupal could initially
> > > serve as the 'support' backend, with its potential for integrating all
> > > of the different support modes (email lists, forums and newsgroups)...
> > > this would give it the opportunity to 'prove' itself (personally, I
> have
> > > no idea if Drupal can even truly achieve this, much less is preferable
> > > over Silverstripe)...
> > >
> > >> I can still be there to play an assistive role in the wings, with
> > >> some great ideas, too. But Michael could take on the main written
> > >> content development role, working in close symbiosis with Christoph
> > >> and Ivan. I feel they will have a close empathy and an excellent
> > >> working relationship.
> > >>
> > >> I feel that this is a novel and creative solution to what could
> > >> otherwise become a conflictual and unproductive situation. We will
> > >> all win. Most important of all, LIBREOFFICE and TDF will win.
> > >>
> > >> What do you think? I am including Michael in this mail, and I want
> > >> to hear his feelings on this.
> > >
> > > I think its a great idea if Michael is willing to take it on...
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Charles
> >
> > Charles,
> > I like the idea, but I think it is worth waiting for the conference
> > call to discuss.
> > This is achievable, however it will take some time setting up and
> > configuring, and in the same time we could have all the same
> > functionality as the existing site on one unified system, allowing us
> > to automatically manage all of the cross links between the systems. We
> > might end up creating a monster that we need to manually manage. I
> > will look into the possibilities prior to the meeting.
> >
> > Again, it is a great idea. I will add it to the agenda for the Conference
> Call.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mike Wheatland
> >
> > --
> > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to 
> > website+h...@libreoffice.org
> > List archive: http://listarc

Re: [libreoffice-website] Back to top link for all pages (was: Current Website)

[klaus-jürgen weghorn ol]

Hi Christian,
Am 20.01.2011 01:38, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:

Hi Klaus-Jürgen, *,

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:04 AM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
  wrote:

Am 13.01.2011 21:48, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:21 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
wrote:

["back to top" link like on the limesurvey site]

And if so, at what position?
Lower right as limesurvey site?


I think the position is quite good. It is moved away from the text but will
follow if you change the width of your browser.


I added it to the pumbaa site as a demo - what do you think?
http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/ (scroll down a little, the
link will appear)
If your monitor is too big and display the whole page at once, try
http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/get-help/mailing-lists/ -
that one is longer .-))


As there were no negative comments would you put this on the live-site? 
So we can avoid "on the top" inside the texts.


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k-j

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[libreoffice-website] New website conf call agenda (was: Re: new features page ...)

[Nino Novak]

Hi,

On Friday 21 January 2011 02:23, Michael Wheatland wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Bernhard Dippold
>
>  wrote:
> > Please let us keep focused on the work at the moment. When the
> > present site is in a final state, the team has shown how it works
> > and Drupal has lost it's "red rag" meaning to some community
> > members, we can consider all of these possibilities. To keep the
> > proposals in mind, they should be added to the wiki.
> >
> > Does this sound reasonable?
>
> I fully agree with your statement. [...]

Then please drop Agenda items 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9 and 10 and replace them 
by (e.g.)

1 - urgent TODOs for the website team - 
what has to be done in the next few days (before the release)?

2 - collaboration with all the website using teams
Identify the most important short term stakeholders for the website
Eventually ask who needs help with setting up website contents

3 - eventually (if really needed) items #2 and #3 from the old agenda 
(what groups/roles does the website team need now for achieving
goals from topics #1/#2 ?)

4 - if time is left, start to think about mid/long term strategies
one or two of the most important topics from the old agenda

Thereby you all can show that you are realists and not dreamers.

My 2 cents.

Nino

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[libreoffice-website] add instructions for Windows custom install

[Andras Timar]

Hi,

Can you add to download instruction or to release notes or whereever
you feel like it belongs to, that if user selects custom install in the
Windows installer, then unwanted dictionaries, language packs,
extensions or other optional features can be deselected? Even after
installation, Windows Start Menu - Control Panel - Add/Remove Programs -
LibreOffice - Modify, and unwanted features can be deselected.

I've seen a few(invalid) bug reports where the reporter did not know this.

Thanks,
Andras

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RE: [libreoffice-website] New website conf call agenda (was: Re: new features page ...)

[Narayan Aras]

Hi Nino!

What you are suggesting is equivalent to an internal review amongst the 
team-members.

Our aim is to establish the long-term vision, and then derive the short/mid 
term action-plan to achieve that goal.

Regards,
Narayan


  
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[libreoffice-website] IE fails to allow access to LibO website

[Sophie Gautier]

Hi all,

This was reported on #TDF:
(14:51:06) stevelee: hi, was anyone aware that IE fails to allow access 
to www.libreoffice.org due to it's bug with wildcard SSL certificates?


IE8 is also concerned.
Thanks.

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [libreoffice-website] IE fails to allow access to LibO website

[Erich Christian]

Hi Sophie, *

Am 21.01.2011 13:15, schrieb Sophie Gautier:
> (14:51:06) stevelee: hi, was anyone aware that IE fails to allow access
> to www.libreoffice.org due to it's bug with wildcard SSL certificates?
> 
> IE8 is also concerned.

^^ Cannot confirm, web- and subsites work just the download script
doesn't recognize the browser language.

cheers
Erich


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Re: [libreoffice-website] IE fails to allow access to LibO website

[Rimas Kudelis]

2011.01.21 14:38, Erich Christian rašė:

Hi Sophie, *

Am 21.01.2011 13:15, schrieb Sophie Gautier:

(14:51:06) stevelee: hi, was anyone aware that IE fails to allow access
to www.libreoffice.org due to it's bug with wildcard SSL certificates?

IE8 is also concerned.

^^ Cannot confirm, web- and subsites work just the download script
doesn't recognize the browser language.


I think the problem is that when accessing the website as 
https://www.libreoffice.org/, IE (up to v8) shows an error because it 
sees the certificate as issued for *.documentfoundation.org, and not 
*.libreoffice.org (or perhaps it just recieves a different certificate?).


Rimas





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Re: [libreoffice-website] Release Date not in the RN page

[Sophie Gautier]

Hi David,
On 21/01/2011 08:39, David Nelson wrote:

Hi Sophie, :-)

Done. I'll leave you to close the bug report then.


Done, thanks.
Kind regards
Sophie
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[libreoffice-website] Re: IE fails to allow access to LibO website

[plino]

Works perfectly with IE6.

It just informs you that the name on the certificate does not match the name
of the site and then asks if you want to proceed and/or view the
certificate...

Probably IE8 is much smarter ;) and just makes the decision for you not to
accept and bails out...
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Re: [libreoffice-website] New website conf call agenda

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Narayan,

Narayan Aras schrieb:


Hi Nino!

What you are suggesting is equivalent to an internal review amongst
the team-members.


It's just a proposal for an updated agenda that allows to start working 
for the final release before the long-term vision has been established.


And as you already stated, the agenda seems not to be realistic for a 
single confcall.


So we - the website team - need to find a solution. And I think Nino's 
proposal is a good one. Of course we need an internal review - internal 
by the website team. If you prefer an alternative approach, please 
provide your proposal.



> Our aim is to establish the long-term vision, and then derive the
short/mid term action-plan to achieve that goal.


Please define who is "we"?

I can only describe what I personally think: At this very moment the 
main task for the website team should be the present website being ready 
for our release.


Reading Michaels comment he seems to support this approach, David has 
done a tremendous work on this goal. Christian, Ivan and Christoph spent 
their time and effort on this task too.


So I think the general approach at the moment seems to support more what 
Nino wrote.


The long-term plans have to be discussed in detail - no question.

But this is not the task I (can't speak for the entire team, but what I 
read here seems to support my opinion) want to work on *now*.


So the idea of prioritizing the agenda items is reasonable IMHO.

Let's start working - we have discussed way too long without working on 
the short-term tasks.


Discussion can and should go on - but let's have the work in the most 
important position.


The website team will be evaluated by the *work* it manages to handle.

It's our chance to show the community that we are not a group of 
individuals spending our time on discussions, while the work is not done 
or left over to just a handful. We want to be a team - let's show the 
community that we are one!


Best regards

Bernhard

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Re: [libreoffice-website] Back to top link for all pages

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Klaus-Jürgen, Christian, all

klaus-jürgen weghorn ol schrieb:

Hi Christian,
Am 20.01.2011 01:38, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:

Hi Klaus-Jürgen, *,

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:04 AM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
 wrote:

Am 13.01.2011 21:48, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:21 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
 wrote:

["back to top" link like on the limesurvey site]

And if so, at what position?
Lower right as limesurvey site?


I think the position is quite good. It is moved away from the text
but will
follow if you change the width of your browser.


I added it to the pumbaa site as a demo - what do you think?
http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/ (scroll down a little, the
link will appear)
If your monitor is too big and display the whole page at once, try
http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/get-help/mailing-lists/ -
that one is longer .-))


As there were no negative comments would you put this on the live-site?
So we can avoid "on the top" inside the texts.


+1

Best Bernhard

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RE: [libreoffice-website] New website conf call agenda (was: Re: new features page ...)

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Naryan, hi Nino!

As Bernhard already said, I also think the proposal by Nino to focus on
the very next steps is a very sensible one.


Am Freitag, den 21.01.2011, 16:29 +0530 schrieb Narayan Aras:
> Hi Nino!
> 
> What you are suggesting is equivalent to an internal review amongst
> the team-members.
> 
> Our aim is to establish the long-term vision, and then derive the
> short/mid term action-plan to achieve that goal.

The long-term vision for the website is important, that's true. But when
looking at one of the decision criteria proposed by project management,
both importance and urgency can be considered. From my point-of-view,
the work on the current website (making it perfect for the release) is
both important and urgent.

What I'd like to bring in is, that the current website / infrastructure
is the "window to the world" so it is required that many people have to
be happy with it. If not, then there are less users, missing external
support, and thus, no need for any long time planning :-)

David, Ivan and Christian still do a tremendous job to make the website
- so I'd like to ask them, if they feel that discussing the current
issues / requests for help will help them. So please speak up (thanks!).

Narayan, one kind request - please keep the essential part of the
message you reply to. This makes it easier to keep track without having
to look at the older messages.

Cheers,
Christoph


Am Freitag, den 21.01.2011, 11:42 +0100 schrieb Nino Novak: 
> Hi,
> 
> On Friday 21 January 2011 02:23, Michael Wheatland wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Bernhard Dippold
> >
> >  wrote:
> > > Please let us keep focused on the work at the moment. When the
> > > present site is in a final state, the team has shown how it works
> > > and Drupal has lost it's "red rag" meaning to some community
> > > members, we can consider all of these possibilities. To keep the
> > > proposals in mind, they should be added to the wiki.
> > >
> > > Does this sound reasonable?
> >
> > I fully agree with your statement. [...]
> 
> Then please drop Agenda items 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9 and 10 and replace them 
> by (e.g.)
> 
[... Proposals ...]
> 
> Thereby you all can show that you are realists and not dreamers.


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[libreoffice-website] download page issue on spanish site

[Daniel A. Rodriguez]

Hi, I'm getting some problems trying to include dropdown lists in download
page, text editor cut html code up resulting in some kind of tag cloud.

Any hint?


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Re: [libreoffice-website] Back to top link for all pages

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Bernhard, hi all!

Am Freitag, den 21.01.2011, 17:36 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> Hi Klaus-Jürgen, Christian, all
> 
> klaus-jürgen weghorn ol schrieb:
> > Hi Christian,
> > Am 20.01.2011 01:38, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:
> >> Hi Klaus-Jürgen, *,
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:04 AM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
> >>  wrote:
> >>> Am 13.01.2011 21:48, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:
>  On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:21 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
>   wrote:
> > ["back to top" link like on the limesurvey site]
>  And if so, at what position?
>  Lower right as limesurvey site?
> >>>
> >>> I think the position is quite good. It is moved away from the text
> >>> but will
> >>> follow if you change the width of your browser.
> >>
> >> I added it to the pumbaa site as a demo - what do you think?
> >> http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/ (scroll down a little, the
> >> link will appear)
> >> If your monitor is too big and display the whole page at once, try
> >> http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/get-help/mailing-lists/ -
> >> that one is longer .-))
> >
> > As there were no negative comments would you put this on the live-site?
> > So we can avoid "on the top" inside the texts.
> >
> +1

+/-1 :-)

Sorry, I've missed this discussion a bit. I like the general idea
(although shorter pages are attractive as well), but the current
realization might miss the main advantage. Three thoughts ...

Position: If you put it at the lower right, the mouse travel distance
will be maximized. Since we miss the advantages of Fitts's Law (lower
right browser window doesn't equal lower right screen), the very next
thing after "go top" is to use the website menu at the top.

Mapping: Going up is usually located at the top (like the scrollbar
button) - the positional mapping is incorrect.

Self-explanation: People will have to read the text to understand the
item (and it needs to be translated?). And, the shape doesn't provide
additional clues (direction).


So my proposal (if technically feasible): How about an element that
shows an arrow (up), which is located approx. 50 ... 100px next to the
LibO header (right of the header), at the top of the page.

--
  ++  ++
  |   HEADER HEADER HEADER HEADER HEADER   |  | /\ |
  ||  ++


And not to forget: The other things - how it appears, and when it
appears are just great!

What do you think?


Cheers,
Christoph

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law


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Re: [libreoffice-website] New website conf call agenda (was: Re: new features page ...)

[David Nelson]

Hi guys, :-)

It's worth remembering that the confcall is not limited strictly to
one hour. It can end when the participants feel we've talked enough.
If ever we don't cover *everything*, then we'll simply carry on at the
next confcall - because I think we should hold them regularly, in any
case.

I think it's important that everyone should feel free to add the items
to the agenda that they feel need to be discussed, and we'll simply
see how to cover it all.

In any case, the most important thing is that we should all do our
best to be there, and we should all do our best to come with an open
mind. ;-)

But I don't think we need to worry. Personally, I'm certain that we're
going to clear the air and sort a lot of the questions out.

I'm busy preparing a review of the work currently done on the site,
with a list of what I suggest needs to be finished, reviewed,
augmented, etc, so that people can start jumping in and working.

Obviously, we'll also be seeing how the team wants to further develop
the content during the confcall and via a wiki page.

However, I'm very keen to see people actually getting involved in the
work as soon as possible.

So I'll be posting my review in just a few hours, after a little
sleep, and I will be online on IRC and on Skype all weekend.

People without accounts and permissions on the site and who want to
work on the content will be able to get them immediately during the
weekend, and any time from now, and will be welcomed to start working
on the pages ASAP so we get them in good initial state for the 3.3
release. ;-)

I'll be posting further details to the list in a few hours, therefore. ;-)

David Nelson

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[libreoffice-website] Preparing Native Lang sites for the release

[Sophie Gautier]

Hi Native Lang Website teams,

I'm speaking to the website teams more than to the l10n leads here :)
Bellow you'll find the wishes of the marketing project and the work that 
they would like to see achieved before the release next week.
You can go your way or follow what is requested bellow (or mix the two 
;) it's up to you.


The PR is discussed on the private PR list, but I can send it to you as 
soon as it's ready, just request it and I'll send it privately to be 
discussed/adapted with your teams.


If you would like to be added to the private PR list just drop me a mail 
too. This is where prepare the announcement for the next version, under 
the direction of Italo, just as we had in the OOo project.
The process is, like in every part of our project, still a work in 
progress, so sorry for the short notice for all this wokr, I'm sure we 
will be much better next time :)


Don't hesitate if you have any question or need any help from me.

Kind regards
Sophie

 Original Message 
Subject: [libreoffice-marketing] marketing todos for 3.3 release
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:02:15 +0100
From: Florian Effenberger 
Reply-To: market...@libreoffice.org
Organization: The Document Foundation
To: market...@libreoffice.org, market...@us.libreoffice.org

Hello,

as we are quickly reaching our 3.3 release, during today's marketing
conference call, we collected items that should be done for the release
day. The date itself is not clearly fixed yet, but I expect it to be
within the next few days, so we should take a chance to work on it over
the weekend. :-)

Here's the list, any additions welcome:

* the local websites as well as libreoffice.org itself should be
prepared with the news

* we need to translate the features page into the various languages

* ideally, this comes also with localized screenshots that are used to
outline the new features

* the PR will soon be circulated and should then be translated into the
various languages and prepared for distribution

* you can add local quotes if you want

* we should point to local or global events where LibO community
members can be met, like FOSDEM and CeBIT:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Events

* we should throw local release parties:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/LibOReleaseEvents

* we might decide on a slogan to use for certain marketing activies:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Slogan (#35 seems to be a
good choice :-)

* we need to get in touch with journalists

* for the spokespeople, I'm sure there are lots of local contacts who
built connections with journalists over the last years, and you are of
course free to talk about LibreOffice, the product and the community

* for media requests specifically concerning the Foundation, please
route them to the TDF spokespeople, currently Charles, Italo, Olivier
and myself

* we should get "global" quotes, Charles and I am working on this

Sorry for this rather short compilation, and especially sorry for
staying so absent in the marketing list the last weeks. The
infrastructure and the foundation things kept me rather busy, but I am
now slowly coming back also to marketing and will contribute as I did
during my OOo times. :-)

We will also gradually improve structure, like local marketing contacts
and the like, so the workflow is even more optimized for 3.3.1 and 3.4. :-)

Thanks for all your help!
Florian

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Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Off topic (was: Re: [libreoffice-website] New website conf call agenda (was: Re: new features page ...))

[Christoph Noack]

Hi David!

Am Samstag, den 22.01.2011, 02:30 +0800 schrieb David Nelson:
> So I'll be posting my review in just a few hours, after a little
> sleep, and I will be online on IRC and on Skype all weekend. 

Thanks! And enjoy your sleep ... it sounds like a hard weekend job :-)

Cheers,
Christoph


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[libreoffice-website] Create a form in silverstripe

[Alexandro Colorado]

I am curious how we have a form like the one under downloads from the
Silverstripe interface?

regards.

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*OpenOffice.org* Español
http://es.openoffice.org

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Re: [libreoffice-website] Create a form in silverstripe

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:03 PM, Alexandro Colorado  
wrote:
> I am curious how we have a form like the one under downloads from the
> Silverstripe interface?

Not sure what you mean with form "under downloads" - if you mean the
download selection (OS/Variant and language, and the bittorrent
toggle), then this is something you cannot do from the interface, this
is parsing rsync output via php and adding a corresponding javascript
for the functionality.

(if you're curious - the far-from-being-nice (not making use of
silverstripe's datastructures, lots of spaghetti code/duplication that
creates the download page is here:
https://github.com/tdf/cms-code/blob/master/mysite/code/DownloadPage.php
the corresponding template that is used to generate the actual html
from the parsed data is
https://github.com/tdf/cms-themes/blob/master/libo/templates/Layout/DownloadPage.ss
)

If you want the download page in your subsite, like for example
http://sl.libreoffice.org/prenosi/ or
http://de.libreoffice.org/download/
Create a page of type "Download Page" - the download list will be
added below the content from the editor.

However, something like this:
http://de.libreoffice.org/anwender/mitmachen/
or this
http://fr.libreoffice.org/formulaire-de-contact/

can be done via the "User Defined Form" page-type.

If you need more elaborate functionality, then this probably would
involve some php code, but if it is of general interest/not too much
effort it can be added.

Just write what you have in mind and we can see how to implement/add it.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-website] download page issue on spanish site

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Daniel,

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 7:18 PM, Daniel A. Rodriguez
 wrote:
> Hi, I'm getting some problems trying to include dropdown lists in download
> page, text editor cut html code up resulting in some kind of tag cloud.

Yes, creation of arbitrary html is not allowed. For Forms, you can use
the "User Defined Form" page type, for more "complicated" stuff, you
need to explain what you need, so that the functionality can be added
to the underlying code (i.e. cannot be done by the UI alone).

ciao
Christian

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[libreoffice-website] Feedback concerning the current website

[Christoph Noack]

Hi David, all!

I've just went through the page and collected a few issues - among those
we already started to discuss. I've added them to the feedback lists:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Development

Sorry for being non-talkative today, but it is rather late - so enjoy your day!

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [libreoffice-website] Back to top link for all pages

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Christoph, all,

Christoph Noack schrieb:

Hi Bernhard, hi all!

Am Freitag, den 21.01.2011, 17:36 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:

Hi Klaus-Jürgen, Christian, all

klaus-jürgen weghorn ol schrieb:

Hi Christian,
Am 20.01.2011 01:38, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:

Hi Klaus-Jürgen, *,

On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:04 AM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
  wrote:

Am 13.01.2011 21:48, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 3:21 PM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
  wrote:

["back to top" link like on the limesurvey site]

And if so, at what position?
Lower right as limesurvey site?


I think the position is quite good. It is moved away from the text
but will
follow if you change the width of your browser.


I added it to the pumbaa site as a demo - what do you think?
http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/ (scroll down a little, the
link will appear)
If your monitor is too big and display the whole page at once, try
http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/get-help/mailing-lists/ -
that one is longer .-))


As there were no negative comments would you put this on the live-site?
So we can avoid "on the top" inside the texts.


+1


+/-1 :-)

Sorry, I've missed this discussion a bit. I like the general idea
(although shorter pages are attractive as well), but the current
realization might miss the main advantage. Three thoughts ...

Position: If you put it at the lower right, the mouse travel distance
will be maximized. Since we miss the advantages of Fitts's Law (lower
right browser window doesn't equal lower right screen), the very next
thing after "go top" is to use the website menu at the top.


I'm not quite sure - as the website menu is still there, people can use 
it without moving to the top of the page.


In my eyes the  button will be used re-read some details 
or use links in the current page after reading the content partially or 
in a whole, but I might be wrong.


Mapping: Going up is usually located at the top (like the scrollbar
button) - the positional mapping is incorrect.


I understood Karl-Heinz differently - he used an example from Limesurvey 
(http://www.limesurvey.org), but this doesn't mean that they do it properly.


I found a website giving more information about the "to top" link:
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/totop.html


Self-explanation: People will have to read the text to understand the
item (and it needs to be translated?). And, the shape doesn't provide
additional clues (direction).


An (additional) arrow would be nice, but I don't know if it really works 
without any textual explanation.



So my proposal (if technically feasible): How about an element that
shows an arrow (up), which is located approx. 50 ... 100px next to the
LibO header (right of the header), at the top of the page.

--
   ++  ++
   |   HEADER HEADER HEADER HEADER HEADER   |  | /\ |
   ||  ++


I would understood this as a link back to the parent level in the 
navigation hierarchy. And showing / hiding it when the page is scrolled 
down might be disruptive.


What do you think of adding the link (not more prominent than at the 
moment) with an additional upward arrow at the right *upper* corner of 
the text area - directly below the navbar?


Best regards

Bernhard

PS: Concerning Fitt's law I don't know if we need to make this button 
more visible and larger. As people know where to click when they want to 
scroll up (upper arrow besides the website's content area), they will 
look at this position to place the mouse. As they already focus on a 
small area, they will probably see the tiny and not very colorful link. 
(As always - only my personal PoV, so Christoph's expertize is rated 
much higher...)


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[libreoffice-website] Re: [tdf-discuss] Nice new download site.

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Rainer, *

Robert Holtzman schrieb:

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:09:15AM +0100, Rainer M Krug wrote:

Hi

After I raised that issue recently, I would like to say congratulations
to a nice download site.


Thank you!

David and Ivan worked hard on the content and design of the new website, 
supported by Christian and Klaus-Jürgen.


I don't know who created the download selector (IIRC Christian or 
Stefan), but I'll forward your mail to the website mailing list, so 
everybody involved can read it.


What are you replying to and why, apparently, did you start a new
thread?

Apparently Rainer was one of the many people asking for an improved 
download page when the site went life.


Now he wants to congratulate the team for the new download page (perhaps 
for the entire site - It seems that he isn't a native speaker).


You probably have already seen the present page:
http://www.libreoffice.org/download

Best regards

Bernhard


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[libreoffice-website] Re: [tdf-discuss] Introduction/New Website Bugs

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Daniel, *

Welcome to our community!

Daniel Neel schrieb:

Hello all. My name is Daniel Neel and I'm interested in working on
LibreOffice's new Drupal-based web site.


I'm sorry if this disappoints you, but our new website is based on 
SilverStripe (an easy to be used CMS): http://www.libreoffice.org


Once our website is in a final state, we'll be able to discuss any 
further improvement. This might be Drupal, but at the moment there are 
other tasks, that are much more urgent than such a discussion.



I have experience developing with
(X)HTML and CSS on a couple of web sites and have dabbled with Python and
other technologies from time to time.


At the moment our website team is forming - do you want to join?

This would be great.

Please subscribe to the website mailing list (by sending a mail to 
website+subscr...@libreoffice.org and reply to the automated mail you 
get) and introduce you there, if you want to.


Anyways, I reviewed the new LibreOffice web site and recorded issues I
found. Is it possible for me to fix these bugs myself, or would I need to be
granted commit rights?


At the moment the Drupal staging site is not worked on, so I'd propose 
to add your findings to the wiki:

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Drupal/Feedback

I don't know if this Drupal solution will be more than a working draft, 
but this would allow to come back to them, when the work on the 
LibreOffice website has reached a final state and our discussions on the 
long-term solution came to a conclusion.


Please don't discuss any Drupal ideas at the moment, because they led to 
long and unproductive discussions in the past and we need to focus on 
the release now. If you follow the website list, you will find out, when 
we'll have the time to develop our goals and aims for the long-term 
website solution that will fit the needs of the entire community.


Best regards

Bernhard


--
Web site bugs

All notes taken using Chromium 8.0.552.237 (70801) Ubuntu 10.10, referring
to the Drupal web site at http://libreofficeaustralia.org/

Navigation bar
  - the sub menu of the "LibreOffice" item doesn't appear to align along the
navigation bar's left edge, while the other items align correctly

Home Page
  - "Take a tour to explore the functions and features of LibreOffice" should
inlude a period after "LibreOffice" - all other items end in periods.
  - The shadows under each image might look better feathered a bit more, with
less hard edges
 - The shadow under the puzzle icon doesn't appear centrally aligned
while the other shadows do
  - "Login or register to post comments Older polls" - might be useful to
have the links highlighted/underlined, as they're (in chrome 8)
indistinguishable from normal text without mousing over them.
 - Also in chrome 8 and firefox 3.6 the "Older polls" item should be on a
new line - currently a little confusing

LibreOffice/Calc
  - url doesn't follow the naming convention of other LibO products. Listed
as "../features/libreoffice-calc" rather than "../features/calc"
   - This also might affect the page's title which is "LibreOffice Calc |
LibreOffice.org" when it should be "Calc | LibreOffice.org", going by the
other product pages
   - also is the cause of a broken link on the Features page

Download
  - uses an old Apple logo - not sure if their newer logos are available for
use or not
  - also uses an old Ubuntu logo rather than the updated ones (located here:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Brand)

Download/Extensions
  - "Discover new possibilities", "Extensions make document creation fun.",
"Explore and install now" - inconsistent use of periods

Features
  - Space between heading and start of page content inconsistent with other
pages (the space between "Features" and "LibreOffice is a comprehensive...")

Features/Accessibility
  - Inconsistent spacing between heading and start of page content

Community/
  - Items in the large list aren't presented in the same order as in the
navigation bar
  - Page titles are inconsistent (see Project Teams and Forums vs the other
items)

Community/Project Teams
  - Contains links to two seperate Quality Assurance team pages, each with
differing content

Community/Forum
  - Sub-forum titles become un-aligned depending on if there's an icon to the
left of them (see mail icon) and if the thread has a mail icon and a
description of the sub-forum
(potentially in other cases as well)

News
  - Assuming the language bar should go below the "To suggest a news article
please contact the News Editor team" section.

All product pages (LibreOffice/... Calc/Writer/etc)
  - Inconsistent spacing between the navigation bar and the start of the
page's content




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Re: [libreoffice-website] Back to top link for all pages

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Christoph, *,

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 7:20 PM, Christoph Noack  wrote:
> Am Freitag, den 21.01.2011, 17:36 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
>> klaus-jürgen weghorn ol schrieb:
>> > Am 20.01.2011 01:38, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:
>> >>
>> >> I added it to the pumbaa site as a demo - what do you think?
>> >> http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/ (scroll down a little, the
>> >> link will appear)
>> >> If your monitor is too big and display the whole page at once, try
>> >> http://pumbaa.documentfoundation.org:7780/get-help/mailing-lists/ -
>> >> that one is longer .-))
>> >
>> > As there were no negative comments would you put this on the live-site?
>> > So we can avoid "on the top" inside the texts.
>> >
>> +1
>
> +/-1 :-)
> [...]
> Position: If you put it at the lower right, the mouse travel distance
> will be maximized. Since we miss the advantages of Fitts's Law (lower
> right browser window doesn't equal lower right screen), the very next
> thing after "go top" is to use the website menu at the top. [...]

Yes, very likely the user will use another link from the navigation
menu at the top/at the left.

> So my proposal (if technically feasible): How about an element that
> shows an arrow (up), which is located approx. 50 ... 100px next to the
> LibO header (right of the header), at the top of the page.

Well - nice idea, but it has one huge drawback: when you need to
scroll up, it is because you actually did scroll down in the past,
thus the header (and hence the proposed location for the button) is
moved out of sight as one of the first elements :-)

So this won't help.

> And not to forget: The other things - how it appears, and when it
> appears are just great!

Credit for that goes to limesurvey site and jquery :-)

> What do you think?

Well, not doable (unless I misunderstood and you're suggesting to make
the complete header a fixed element on screen, something which I'd
dislike..
But of course it could be placed at the top-right as well, or in the
middle of the screen, there I don't have a preference

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-website] Back to top link for all pages

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Bernhard, *;

On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 1:21 AM, Bernhard Dippold
 wrote:
> Christoph Noack schrieb:
>> Am Freitag, den 21.01.2011, 17:36 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
>>> klaus-jürgen weghorn ol schrieb:
 Am 20.01.2011 01:38, schrieb Christian Lohmaier:
> On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 8:04 AM, klaus-jürgen weghorn ol
>   wrote:
>>
>> Self-explanation: People will have to read the text to understand the
>> item (and it needs to be translated?). And, the shape doesn't provide
>> additional clues (direction).
>
> An (additional) arrow would be nice, but I don't know if it really works
> without any textual explanation.

Added an arrow, but probably it's too small to be helpful...

> What do you think of adding the link (not more prominent than at the moment)
> with an additional upward arrow at the right *upper* corner of the text area
> - directly below the navbar?
>
> PS: Concerning Fitt's law I don't know if we need to make this button more
> visible and larger. As people know where to click when they want to scroll
> up (upper arrow besides the website's content area), they will look at this
> position to place the mouse.

Well - before they can scroll up, they did scroll down, thus the
cursor is at the bottom area (when using the scrollbar in ther first
place).
So I don't really think you can apply Fitt's law in either case.

You did scroll down, want go up, cursor is already at the lower end of
the scrollbar → bottom-right position would be OK.

You and Christoph follow the other approach "the user wants to scroll
up, thus he points to the upper-area of the scollbar because they're
used to it", in this case the upper area would be better.

I now changed it to be at top-right instead of bottom-right, so you
get a feeling for it.

ciao
Christian

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RE: [libreoffice-website] New website conf call agenda (was: Re: new features page ...)

[Narayan Aras]

Hi! :)

Looking back at my reply I realized that I could not explain my point fully.

While the agenda at the web conference is for long-term planning, it is NOT a 
substitute for the short-term planning.
With barely a few days (or even hours) left for the D-day, I only expect 
furious single-minded activity.

In fact, my original proposal was "people can join after 3.3 is released".
But when this call was planned between David and Mike, I thought maybe there is 
enough time.

So if the team-members feel that the short-term goal should be dealt with 
first, naturally I agree.

Just postpone the call till the 3.3 and support system are deal with. 

Do I still see some "us vs. them" attitude under the surface? :)


Regards,
Narayan


  
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Re: [libreoffice-website] New website conf call agenda

[Michael Wheatland]

On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 2:02 AM, Bernhard Dippold
 wrote:
> Hi Narayan,
>
> Narayan Aras schrieb:
>>
>> Hi Nino!
>>
>> What you are suggesting is equivalent to an internal review amongst
>> the team-members.
>
> It's just a proposal for an updated agenda that allows to start working for
> the final release before the long-term vision has been established.
>
> And as you already stated, the agenda seems not to be realistic for a single
> confcall.
>
> So we - the website team - need to find a solution. And I think Nino's
> proposal is a good one. Of course we need an internal review - internal by
> the website team. If you prefer an alternative approach, please provide your
> proposal.
>
>> > Our aim is to establish the long-term vision, and then derive the
>> short/mid term action-plan to achieve that goal.
>
> Please define who is "we"?
>
> I can only describe what I personally think: At this very moment the main
> task for the website team should be the present website being ready for our
> release.
>
> Reading Michaels comment he seems to support this approach, David has done a
> tremendous work on this goal. Christian, Ivan and Christoph spent their time
> and effort on this task too.
>
> So I think the general approach at the moment seems to support more what
> Nino wrote.
>
> The long-term plans have to be discussed in detail - no question.
>
> But this is not the task I (can't speak for the entire team, but what I read
> here seems to support my opinion) want to work on *now*.
>
> So the idea of prioritizing the agenda items is reasonable IMHO.
>
> Let's start working - we have discussed way too long without working on the
> short-term tasks.
>
> Discussion can and should go on - but let's have the work in the most
> important position.
>
> The website team will be evaluated by the *work* it manages to handle.
>
> It's our chance to show the community that we are not a group of individuals
> spending our time on discussions, while the work is not done or left over to
> just a handful. We want to be a team - let's show the community that we are
> one!
>
> Best regards
>
> Bernhard


One thing we need to keep in mind, is that we have quite a few
under-utilised resources who have been working on the Drupal project
due to the misunderstanding that the Silverstripe site already had
developers.

I fully support prioritizing the agenda in order to draw focus on the
topics which need attention now, however the other agenda items
will/should be a simple discussion as to whether we should be
exploring the options in the medium term and who should report back on
the items. As it is the first conference call, structuring,
prioritizing and volunteering is going to be the outcome.

In order for everyone to get on board with the team we must have a
clear picture about where we are going and who is able to help with
the required tasks.

Without defining where we wish to end up, I believe we risk continuing
to proceed with development without community coordination and
collaboration as we have seen over the past few months on
Silverstripe.

It -will- be a short conversation which will clear up many of the
concerns about immediate and longer term goals.

Have confidence.

Mike

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Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call

[Michael Wheatland]

Looks like the best time is going to be:

Wednesday 26th January 2011 at 1900 GMT

This time would exclude Florian and Fabian. Not sure about David, his
availability says no, but he mentioned he might be able to shuffle
some things. Have a look at the poll and let us know if another time
might be better:
http://doodle.com/wzy78i52av4h6din

Also what do people think about starting early, possibly at 1800GMT so
we can capture as many people as possible over a 1-2 hour period.

Should we book it in?

Michael Wheatland

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Re: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call

[David Nelson]

Hi, :-)

On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 14:26, Michael Wheatland
 wrote:
> Looks like the best time is going to be:
>
> Wednesday 26th January 2011 at 1900 GMT
>
> This time would exclude Florian and Fabian. Not sure about David, his
> availability says no, but he mentioned he might be able to shuffle
> some things.

It's OK, I'll be there whenever it take place.

> Have a look at the poll and let us know if another time
> might be better:
> http://doodle.com/wzy78i52av4h6din
>
> Also what do people think about starting early, possibly at 1800GMT so
> we can capture as many people as possible over a 1-2 hour period.

In any case, I'm pretty sure this is going to go well over 1 hour...

> Should we book it in?

Maybe wait until Monday and see then? Maybe this weekend some other
people will enter times?

David Nelson

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RE: [libreoffice-website] LibreOffice website team inaugural conference call

[Narayan Aras]

I think with the stated agenda, much more time would be required.
Or else we would not be doing justice to the topics.

At least the positions for each topic should be stated in a wiki page.

When disparate positions are written down, they is better expressed and easier 
to understand 
(especially useful for people who are cannot express their thoughts in spoken 
English).

Others can ascertain finer nuances of any statement and avoid drawing hasty 
conclusions.
This will prevent any impulsive reactions during the call.

Opening any of the agenda directly in the call would be a mistake.

Regards,
Narayan



  
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