Re: [whatwg] The new content model for details breaks rendering in MSIE5-7
2009-10-03 21:47, Tab Atkins Jr. skrev: Well, no amount of proof would do so; only a convincing enough argument. I, personally, do not feel thatdt's semantics change betweendl anddetails. Nor do I feel they have different syntax at all -dl anddetails do have slightly different syntaxes, but it's very minor and pretty much bound up in the fact thatdl has multiple name/value pairs whiledetails has only one, sodetails doesn't *have* to worry about ordering in the same way thatdl does. etc In what way is the SYNTAX different? We seem to agree on this: First and foremost, in dl the order is all important. Here it would not matter. In dl one may have several dd for each dt (or several dt's in a row), here one may not. You call this minor, I say confusing. But we have in fact created a new syntax - why is that better than creating new elements? In what way is the SEMANTICS different? So, in my mind, dt/dd do *not* hold some special meaning that locks them into only ever being used in dl. dt is a heading element, nothing more, effectively equivalent to h1*. Well, that is not what the SPEC says is it? I mean, would you complain about using title or caption or label or legend... in details? Yes, I would. I am arguing in favor of introducing a new element, which would be the zero cost solution, since details is new anyway. + No hacks besides those that we already use to get details working as such in legacy browsers. + When implementing details the browser vendors will not have a harder time using a new element than they would using dt/dd. + We would keep the several meanings per element count down, which from a teachability POV is more important than keeping the total number of elements down. And from that POV nuances are often harder to pick up than anything else. -- Keryx Web (Lars Gunther) http://keryx.se/ http://twitter.com/itpastorn/ http://itpastorn.blogspot.com/
[whatwg] dialog removal
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009, Jonas Sicking wrote: Neither dialog nor meter were added because they are expected to be used in great numbers. Both were added to prevent another element from being _mis_used. (Specifically, dialog takes away from the risk of people marking up dialogs as association lists, and meter takes away from the risk of people marking up gauges as progress bars.) While I can see the argument for meter, I'm not sure I see it with dialog. First of all, as others have pointed out, dialog is generally not feature-full enough to mark up dialogs. Second, given that association lists already exist, we should be able to check existing pages to see if people are abusing lists to mark up dialogs. I started by looking at some sites with the Romeo and Juliet play: http://www.william-shakespeare.info/act1-script-text-romeo-and-juliet.htm Uses br http://shakespearemiami.tripod.com/id22.html Uses blockquote http://shakespeare.mit.edu/romeo_juliet/full.html Uses blockquote http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/r/romeo-and-juliet-script-screenplay.html Uses pre http://www.clicknotes.com/romeo/T11.html p and br http://www.opensourceshakespeare.org/views/plays/play_view.php?WorkID=romeojulietAct=1Scene=1Scope=scene One ulli.../li/ul for each quote. http://www.cambridge.org/us/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521618700ss=exc Uses p I also looked for transcripts of the frost/nixon interview: http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2007/sep/07/greatinterviews1 Uses p http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2008/06/inspiration-by-digby-as-constitutional.html Uses br http://www.ourblook.com/Reporters-and-the-Media/The-Nixon-Interviews-with-David-Frost.html Uses br http://remember-nixon.org/ Uses pre https://pol.moveon.org/archive/breakingthelaw_sub1.html Basically uses one ulli.../li/ul for each quote. http://belowthebeltway.com/2009/04/30/condi-rice-channels-richard-nixon-if-the-president-authorizes-it-its-not-illegal/ Uses p I also looked at transcripts for the Silly Job Interview play by Monty Python: http://www.orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/intview.htm Uses p (this site does use a list, but not for the actual dialog) http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode05.htm Uses a table with a tr for each line in the dialog. (This is actually another monty python skit, but it turned up in my search and I figured it didn't really matter) http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Series_1/35.htm Uses p http://www.ulrikchristensen.dk/scripts/montypython/sillyjob.html Uses p http://www.cardinalfang.net/episodes/season_one/silly_job_interview.html Uses p (and o:p) Finally I simply did a google search for interview transcript: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/28/60minutes/main590381.shtml Uses br http://www.pokerlistings.com/blog/ashman103-the-interview-transcript Uses p http://www.pgatour.com/2009/tournaments/r027/08/30/sunday.transcript.slocum/index.html Uses p http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/8/15/990765/clyde-drexler-interview-transcript Uses p http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7065633 Uses p http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2008/05/bill_belichicks.html Uses p http://d5.allthingsd.com/20070531/d5-gates-jobs-transcript/ Uses p http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/nov/08/dizzee-rascal-paxman-jeremy-bbc Uses p http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/jaycee-lee-dugard/6105540/Phillip-Garridos-interview-transcript.html Uses p http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=2594 Uses p http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/tv_and_radio/article2777973.ece Uses p http://www.cdi.org/adm/1351/Yafei.html Uses p http://www.ronsuskind.com/thewayoftheworld/transcripts/ Uses p http://www.anusha.com/osamaint.htm Uses p Thanks for this research! Based on the data above, I removed dialog (a few weeks ago now), and replaced it with a section on how to mark up conversations that tries to pave the cowpath that most of the above walk (namely, using p). (Sorry for the late replying relative to the time of the edit.) -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Feature requests in WebSocket (Was: BWTP for WebSocket transfer protocol)
On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Wellington Fernando de Macedo wrote: Ian, do you intend to add any other features to the first version of WebSocket? If yes, which ones? I was thinking of adding multiplexing, but after discussing this with a variety of people, I'm leaning towards leaving the protocol as is, and letting authors implement their own multiplexing if they need it. Other than that, I have no plans to add any features or make any further major changes to the normative requirements in the protocol unless someone brings up some serious problems. I recommend rereading the spec and comparing it to any tests and implementations before shipping, as there have been a number of subtle changes over the past few months, such as dropping redirect support, changing the default ports, changing how URLs are parsed, and the like. I have some outstanding feedback on WebSockets, which I'll be getting to in the coming days. HTH, -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] The new content model for details breaks rendering in MSIE5-7
On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 4:13 AM, Keryx Web webmas...@keryx.se wrote: I am arguing in favor of introducing a new element, which would be the zero cost solution, since details is new anyway. It's not a zero-cost solution, though. It introduces *another* nearly identical heading-type element to the language, joining the ranks of the dozen+ we already have. Trying to remember what heading-type element to use in details as opposed to in fieldset or what-have-you is a learning nightmare of a different variety. + No hacks besides those that we already use to get details working as such in legacy browsers. dt only requires extra hacks in two browsers that are on the way out. Given a little bit more time they'll be gone completely, and we can stop worrying about this. + When implementing details the browser vendors will not have a harder time using a new element than they would using dt/dd. I'm not certain what you mean by this. Indeed they won't have a harder time - the difficulty will be the same either way. + We would keep the several meanings per element count down, which from a teachability POV is more important than keeping the total number of elements down. And from that POV nuances are often harder to pick up than anything else. Just teach dt/dd in a way that makes this easier to learn. ~TJ
Re: [whatwg] The new content model for details breaks rendering in MSIE5-7
On 04/10/2009 15:51, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote: dt only requires extra hacks in two browsers that are on the way out. Given a little bit more time they'll be gone completely, and we can stop worrying about this. I'm sorry but you are really understating the problem here. -dean
Re: [whatwg] The new content model for details breaks rendering in MSIE5-7
On 04/10/2009 18:11, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote: On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Dean Edwardsdean.edwa...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/10/2009 15:51, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote: dtonly requires extra hacks in two browsers that are on the way out. Given a little bit more time they'll be gone completely, and we can stop worrying about this. I'm sorry but you are really understating the problem here. Can you elaborate? Are there rendering problems in any other browsers? Is there something else I'm missing? Is this too many questions in a row? MSIE5-7 usage is currently between 25% and 30%. It will take a number of years before it becomes insignificant. The two hacks you mention are fairly hideous. One of them can potentially prevent other scripts from executing. We've gone full circle on this subject now. We are starting to repeat ourselves. -dean
Re: [whatwg] More prohibited characters for unquoted attributes are needed
On Mon, 7 Sep 2009, Aryeh Gregor wrote: On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 1:34 PM, Geoffrey Sneddon foolist...@googlemail.com wrote: Apparently Hixie had previously said he didn't want to change this as it will become a non-issue over time. I think it does matter due to the security issues it presents in existing UAs. Conforming markup (using elements/attributes allowed in HTML 4.01) should not cause JS to execute in one browser but not in another. I agree with you as an author. I wrote an HTML output function in MediaWiki assuming that what the standard says is known to be interoperable, which is apparently wrong. If I hadn't been keeping up with HTML 5, I would have introduced an XSS vulnerability because of some browsers' handling of `. If the problem will go away with time, then perhaps a later version of the standard could make such unquoted attributes conforming, once there's no more problem with them. As far as I can tell, this is an IE bug; treating ` as an attribute quoting character is non-conforming in any version of HTML so far, it seems. I'm certainly not going to make it non-conforming to stumble into any IE bug or difference in parsing between IE and previous specs or other browsers; we'd just end up with an asanine set of conformance requirements. For example, should this be non-conforming? !DOCTYPE html titleTest/title form labelSearch: input type=text/label input type=submit /form This perfectly innocent piece of HTML content (HTML2-compliant except for the DOCTYPE) results in a non-tree DOM in IE8. Should we make it non-conforming? Similarly, IE conditional comments make it trivial to trigger scripts in IE but not another UA; indeed people do this on purpose. Should we make those non-conforming also? As I understand it, the attack here is a site that allows the user to input text that is used verbatim in two attributes, such that the user can set the first attribute's value to: ` ...and the second to: ` onload='...payload...' end=x ...with the assumption that the site is going to not quote the first one, and quote the second one with double quotes: body title=` class=` onload='...payload...' end=x ...which in IE, for some reason, gets treated as: body title=' class=' onload='...payload...' end='x' I've disallowed ` in unquoted attribute values for now, but I think we should revert this once IE has fixed this bug for a few years. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] HTML 5 drag and drop feedback
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009, Sebastian Markb�ge wrote: No browser has implemented the copy/paste part of the spec. Few parts of the spec are perfectly implemented anywhere today, indeed. That's what it'll take years to get to -- that's where the 2022 estimate comes from, in fact -- I doubt we'll have two perfect implementations before then. As for lazy data... If the drag/drop is actually a copy/paste, you still have to serialize ALL data. If your script made the assumption that it wouldn't, then that could cause some interesting bloated clipboard. To me, this is just another example of why the copy/paste API should be separate. I don't see why copy and paste is different than drag and drop here. In both cases, you would want to push a promise into the dataTransfer (or its analogue) for performance reasons. I've also suggested that you allow for lazy loading of data as entire files using: dataTransfer.setRemoteData(type, uri); Using a remote URI in the clipboard, that API could lazily load data even after the document is unloaded. But I also like the idea of a callback. Yes, I think this is a worthwhile addition to the API -- once the implementations are closer to what the spec says. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
