Re: [whatwg] Provide a system to observe nodes entering and leaving the viewport
On 6/23/13 3:37 PM, louis-rémi Babé wrote: Hi, I've opened a bug about a ViewportObserver API that would allow developers to receive a digest of what nodes enter or leave the viewport (similar to MutationObserver). The bug is on the w3's bugzilla: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20246 I will get to addressing this bug in due course. The discussion didn't go really far, it stopped a year ago but I've seen similar ideas pop up in different places(e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2013May/0027.html ). I'm now searching for people who could help me move this idea forward. Who should I ping/contact/harass? What would be useful for me: * use cases for the feature. * URLs to existing pages that work around the lack of this feature. * stated implementation interest from browser vendors. Please comment further in the bug. Thanks! -- Simon Pieters Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] Should a figure element require a reference? (was: use cases for figure without figcaption?)
Hi Xaxio On 21 June 2013 15:59, Xaxio Brandish xaxiobrand...@gmail.com wrote: Steve, Please permit me to change the subject line since the topic no longer answers the subject question? thanks! The next sentence in the WHATWG spec [1] states The element can thus be used to annotate illustrations, diagrams, photos, code listings, etc, that are *referred to from the main content of the document* (italics mine) It's true that there is no text saying that the figure element MUST be used a certain way, but there are two sentences saying how it typically or can be used, both implying a reference from a document. OK so 'typically' infers that figure is used in this way, from a recent review of data (June 2013 data set from http://webdevdata.org) on usage of figure it appears that it is typically not used in this way by authors. There are typically no explicit references to figure content. Here are some examples of pages using figure/figcaption. (also appears that figure is often used without figcaption: figcaption instances in sample of 53000 pages = 4603 , figure usage = 14609, indicating approx 1 in 3 uses of figure includes a figcaption) - Mirror Online http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ - Christian News on Christian Today http://www.christiantoday.com/ - Infonews http://www.infonews.com/ - Peru.com, http://peru.com/ - Computer Arts magazine http://www.computerarts.co.uk/ - Elle http://www.elle.it/ - NASCAR.com http://www.nascar.com/en_us/sprint-cup-series.html - Indiatimes: http://www.indiatimes.com/ - Bollywood Mantra http://www.bollywoodmantra.com/ - Teen Vogue http://teenvogue.com/ - Irish Independent http://www.independent.ie/ - bitbucket https://bitbucket.org/ - HELLO! Online http://www.hellomagazine.com/ - Mobile App Tracking http://mobileapptracking.com/ - Consumer Complaint Databasehttp://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaintdatabase/ - AS.com http://as.com/ One part of the ambiguity in the WHATWG spec comes from the examples given: 1) The first example uses figure as referenced from a document. 2) The second example is not referenced from a document. 3) The third example shows an image that is not a figure, followed by two pieces of media content that are within figure tags. The non-figure image could not be removed from its position in the document flow without changing the meaning of the document, so it is not used as a figure element. 4) The fourth example is not referenced from a document. 5) The final two examples are implied to be referenced from a document, and are semantically equivalent. Since we cannot know the surrounding document for examples 2 and 4, it seems that those examples take advantage of the open-ended adaptability of the unreferenced version of the figure element. agree that current examples are lacking and do not serve to illustrate intended use of figure/figcaption Part of the semantics of HTML come from *author intent* and *reasonable expectation*. If we see a table element, we can expect tabular data. If we see an li element, we can expect that it is one of multiple. see stats above, author intent in real world use does not appear to match expectations. for the majority of users the use of figure/figcaption makes not difference they don't even know its there. For users of assistive technology in combination with browser that actually map the figure and figcaption elements to something useful they are aware that the the content of the figure is a distinct group and hat the caption for the group is (if provided), the theoretical capability of figure to be moved away from its current position is just that. This leaves us with the question at hand: if we see a figure element, can we expect to find a part of the document from which it is referenced? Consider the following scenario: One is reading an online newspaper article. The article references Figure 1, located at the end of the article (and near the bottom of the page) due to readability constraints. We look at the end of the article, and see a figure with a caption Figure 1. The article then references Figure 2, so we look at the end of the article and see a figure with a caption, Figure 2. We arrive at the end of the article and see another figure with a caption, Figure 3. In the above scenario, Figure 3 is unreferenced. The first instinct when looking at an unreferenced figure (as used in the scenario) is to examine the figure to attempt to establish a context for it. Whether or not context is established, the second instinct is almost invariably to go back to the part of the article after Figure 2 was referenced in order to find out where we missed the reference to Figure 3. A third, slightly lesser instinct may even prompt a review of the entire article in an effort to find the missing reference. It is possible that the author of the fabled online newspaper article needed to use a
Re: [whatwg] Cross-Origin Cookies Sharing Proposal
Hi Mountie, I think they are different experiences. we want a smooth solution. Regards, Charlie 2013/6/24 Mountie Lee moun...@paygate.net for SSO, did you tried SAML or OAuth? On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Huan Du dh20...@gmail.com wrote: Nils, Thanks for your feedback. There are 3 web sites in Alibaba at least: taobao.com, tmall.com, etao.com. all of them are using a same account management system including Sign up, Sign in. The requirement is simple for the account management system. when user A signed in taobao.com, we expect A is signed in tmall.com and etao.com. Regards, Charlie 2013/6/22 Nils Dagsson Moskopp n...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net Huan Du dh20...@gmail.com schrieb am Fri, 21 Jun 2013 19:49:39 +0800: As privacy awareness becomes prevelant, the trend is that future browsers are going to ban third-party Cookies by default. This is a good thing for users, but for giant internet companies, this has no doubt increases the difficult and complexity of implementing user session synchronization. I have a suspicion that the only thing that cannot be done easily without cookies is tracking – that is, pretending that a user has an account, but ensuring that she has not made that choice consciously. Everything else, so it seems to me, can be done RESTful. Am I wrong? Is it possible to, like Cross-Origin Resource Sharing, allow a site to indicate which domains it would like to share Cookies with? The user account management system of Alibaba have encountered this issues and been troubled by this issue. It there's a proposal like this, it would be very nice. Can you elaborate? Why would an account management system need sessions? -- Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net -- Mountie Lee PayGate CTO, CISSP Tel : +82 2 2140 2700 E-Mail : moun...@paygate.net === PayGate Inc. THE STANDARD FOR ONLINE PAYMENT for Korea, Japan, China, and the World
Re: [whatwg] Questions regarding Path object
On Jun 17, 2013, at 17:55 , Rik Cabanier caban...@gmail.com wrote: I think we need to get some browser vendors on board. What's the process to do so? However, I believe Firefox has been working on landing 'path' and there was a patch for WebKit that also landed a partial path object. I'm unsure if these ended up in shipping browsers. Would that mean it's too late? I really hope not! Best, Jürg
Re: [whatwg] Questions regarding Path object
On Jun 24, 2013, at 8:38 AM, Jürg Lehni li...@scratchdisk.com wrote: On Jun 17, 2013, at 17:55 , Rik Cabanier caban...@gmail.com wrote: I think we need to get some browser vendors on board. What's the process to do so? However, I believe Firefox has been working on landing 'path' and there was a patch for WebKit that also landed a partial path object. I'm unsure if these ended up in shipping browsers. Would that mean it's too late? I really hope not! You can check if you see problems in WebKit nightlies or in Chrome/Chromium with the experimental flag enabled. Greetings, Dirk Best, Jürg
Re: [whatwg] Should a figure element require a reference? (was: use cases for figure without figcaption?)
Good morning Steve, (had to snip the message and resend, it went over the mailing list size limit) On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:17 AM, Steve Faulkner faulkner.st...@gmail.comwrote: OK so 'typically' infers that figure is used in this way, from a recent review of data (June 2013 data set from http://webdevdata.org) on usage of figure it appears that it is typically not used in this way by authors. There are typically no explicit references to figure content. Here are some examples of pages using figure/figcaption. (also appears that figure is often used without figcaption: figcaption instances in sample of 53000 pages = 4603 , figure usage = 14609, indicating approx 1 in 3 uses of figure includes a figcaption) - Mirror Online http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/ - Christian News on Christian Today http://www.christiantoday.com/ - Infonews http://www.infonews.com/ - Peru.com, http://peru.com/ - Computer Arts magazine http://www.computerarts.co.uk/ - Elle http://www.elle.it/ - NASCAR.com http://www.nascar.com/en_us/sprint-cup-series.html - Indiatimes: http://www.indiatimes.com/ - Bollywood Mantra http://www.bollywoodmantra.com/ - Teen Vogue http://teenvogue.com/ - Irish Independent http://www.independent.ie/ - bitbucket https://bitbucket.org/ - HELLO! Online http://www.hellomagazine.com/ - Mobile App Tracking http://mobileapptracking.com/ - Consumer Complaint Databasehttp://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaintdatabase/ - AS.com http://as.com/ I looked over the markup of several of the pages you listed here. I'm assuming that these represent a reasonable representation of widespread usage (no offense, please -- I didn't check the webdavdata data myself). These pages seem to use figure inside of an article (or equivalent) to place images related to the article, often linked to the extended text of an article on another page, but none of the figures are specifically referenced. On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:17 AM, Steve Faulkner faulkner.st...@gmail.comwrote: Part of the semantics of HTML come from *author intent* and *reasonable expectation*. If we see a table element, we can expect tabular data. If we see an li element, we can expect that it is one of multiple. see stats above, author intent in real world use does not appear to match expectations. for the majority of users the use of figure/figcaption makes not difference they don't even know its there. I think the question at that point becomes, *What value does the figure element add to its content if not referenced?*, especially since that seems to be the case a majority of the time. All of the images in the article are by default related to that article, since they are placed there. Even if real world data does not dictate it, we still need to maintain a level of reasonable expectation: one would *not* put an image or figure inside of an article that is not related to that article. Some of the pages you listed use figure and figcaption as a way to caption an image, but several of the pages don't even have captions (as you indicated, 1 in 3). The answer to the above question seems to be that the figure element doesn't add meaning at that point. One could encapsulate every img element in an article inside of a figure element, but what would be the point? We already know they're images, and we already know they're related to the article. The WHATWG HTML specification [1] currently says If a figure element is referenced by its relative position, e.g. in the photograph above or as the next figure shows, then moving the figure would disrupt the page's meaning. Authors are encouraged to consider using labels to refer to figures, rather than using such relative references, so that the page can easily be restyled without affecting the page's meaning. It seems that figure elements are often simply not referenced at all, not even relatively, which *seems* to be a misuse of the element as currently defined. figure elements are not required to be part of an article element, though that seems to be the largest use. On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:17 AM, Steve Faulkner faulkner.st...@gmail.comwrote: For users of assistive technology in combination with browser that actually map the figure and figcaption elements to something useful they are aware that the the content of the figure is a distinct group and hat the caption for the group is (if provided), the theoretical capability of figure to be moved away from its current position is just that. It is indeed theoretical, but part of the reason for the specification is provisioning for future and practical usage. Consider a search engine similar to Wolfram Alpha that would be happy to pull figure elements as being distinct groups. Alternatively, consider a page of stock indexes inside related articles that is visually organized in a nonintuitive way, where the markup contains the value of the stock inside figure, and the stock
Re: [whatwg] Challenging canvas.supportsContext
2013/6/21 Benoit Jacob jacob.benoi...@gmail.com Any other application use cases? Anyone? I believe that if no unquestionable application use case can be given, then this function should be removed from the spec. Benoit
Re: [whatwg] Challenging canvas.supportsContext
On 25/06/2013, at 5:56 AM, Benoit Jacob jacob.benoi...@gmail.com wrote:
2013/6/21 Benoit Jacob jacob.benoi...@gmail.com
Any other application use cases?
Anyone?
I believe that if no unquestionable application use case can be given, then
this function should be removed from the spec.
I think I was the person who proposed the method, and we just implemented it
in WebKit.
I'm not going to oppose removal, but I do think it is still fairly useful. Tab
mentioned many of the things I had in mind (analogous to @supports, possibly
better described as maybe and no, etc). Maybe convenient is a better word?
I don't really buy the argument that it is useless for feature detection because
even if supportsContext('webgl') returned true, you don't know if you can
actually
use WebGL until you create a context. Obviously pages will have to be written
to support failing calls to getContext. They have to do this with or without
this API.
Also, the presence of window.WebGLRenderingContext doesn't necessarily indicate
that WebGL is supported. On iOS for example, that object is available in Safari
but calling getContext('webgl') fails. The supportsContext method would allow
authors to easily detect this case.
One could also imagine a vendor extension context type that is impossible to
detect via DOM properties, and is unable to avoid lazy instantiation.
Anyway, it seems most people want to remove it, so I'm not going to fight.
Dean
Re: [whatwg] Questions regarding Path object
Well I know there will be problems: Paper.js has a Path class since 2011, and these will clash when using the library without scoping, which is what many people do. I was hoping that a more specific name could be adopted before the standard is set in stone, hence the proposal of adding 2D to all global constructors that relate to 2D graphics and canvas. I doubt we're the only library that clashes. Jürg On Jun 24, 2013, at 08:55 , Dirk Schulze dschu...@adobe.com wrote: On Jun 24, 2013, at 8:38 AM, Jürg Lehni li...@scratchdisk.com wrote: On Jun 17, 2013, at 17:55 , Rik Cabanier caban...@gmail.com wrote: I think we need to get some browser vendors on board. What's the process to do so? However, I believe Firefox has been working on landing 'path' and there was a patch for WebKit that also landed a partial path object. I'm unsure if these ended up in shipping browsers. Would that mean it's too late? I really hope not! You can check if you see problems in WebKit nightlies or in Chrome/Chromium with the experimental flag enabled. Greetings, Dirk Best, Jürg
Re: [whatwg] Cross-Origin Cookies Sharing Proposal
Sure, it is an implementation issue, but I think the standardization should let it be easy. Like the tags header, footer... why we need them? right? Regards Charlie 在 2013-6-25，8:49，Mountie Lee moun...@paygate.net I think it is about not for standardization issue but for implementation issue. On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 7:06 PM, Huan Du dh20...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Mountie, I think they are different experiences. we want a smooth solution. Regards, Charlie 2013/6/24 Mountie Lee moun...@paygate.net for SSO, did you tried SAML or OAuth? On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Huan Du dh20...@gmail.com wrote: Nils, Thanks for your feedback. There are 3 web sites in Alibaba at least: taobao.com, tmall.com, etao.com. all of them are using a same account management system including Sign up, Sign in. The requirement is simple for the account management system. when user A signed in taobao.com, we expect A is signed in tmall.com and etao.com. Regards, Charlie 2013/6/22 Nils Dagsson Moskopp n...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net Huan Du dh20...@gmail.com schrieb am Fri, 21 Jun 2013 19:49:39 +0800: As privacy awareness becomes prevelant, the trend is that future browsers are going to ban third-party Cookies by default. This is a good thing for users, but for giant internet companies, this has no doubt increases the difficult and complexity of implementing user session synchronization. I have a suspicion that the only thing that cannot be done easily without cookies is tracking �C that is, pretending that a user has an account, but ensuring that she has not made that choice consciously. Everything else, so it seems to me, can be done RESTful. Am I wrong? Is it possible to, like Cross-Origin Resource Sharing, allow a site to indicate which domains it would like to share Cookies with? The user account management system of Alibaba have encountered this issues and been troubled by this issue. It there's a proposal like this, it would be very nice. Can you elaborate? Why would an account management system need sessions? -- Nils Dagsson Moskopp // erlehmann http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net -- Mountie Lee PayGate CTO, CISSP Tel : +82 2 2140 2700 E-Mail : moun...@paygate.net === PayGate Inc. THE STANDARD FOR ONLINE PAYMENT for Korea, Japan, China, and the World -- Mountie Lee PayGate CTO, CISSP Tel : +82 2 2140 2700 E-Mail : moun...@paygate.net === PayGate Inc. THE STANDARD FOR ONLINE PAYMENT for Korea, Japan, China, and the World
