Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
On Fri, 4 May 2012, Doug Turner wrote: I have added two new events to Firefox which allow web apps to detect light and proximity changes. http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/device-proximity-sensor/ http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/device-light-sensor/ I spoke to Doug about this on IRC and for now I'm not going to spec this in the HTML spec. It would probably be good for these events to be combined with the Geo and device orientation events and all specced together, but I'll leave that up to whoever specs them. :-) -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
Hey Ian, The Sensor API Specification in the W3 is going to own them. - Original Message - From: Ian Hickson i...@hixie.ch To: wha...@whatwg.org Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2012 3:27:17 PM Subject: Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events On Fri, 4 May 2012, Doug Turner wrote: I have added two new events to Firefox which allow web apps to detect light and proximity changes. http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/device-proximity-sensor/ http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/device-light-sensor/ I spoke to Doug about this on IRC and for now I'm not going to spec this in the HTML spec. It would probably be good for these events to be combined with the Geo and device orientation events and all specced together, but I'll leave that up to whoever specs them. :-) -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: Where was that discussion? This came up at the WebApps F2F and there was general agreement that if we added new events adding new event handler attributes would make sense. Feature detection of some kind is useful as forcing people to do UA sniffing leads to badness. -- Anne — Opera Software http://annevankesteren.nl/ http://www.opera.com/
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
Scott González wrote: On Tuesday, May 8, 2012, Doug Turner wrote: You don't. This API doesn't have device detection. Don't assume that onXXX means that the UA supports an event. I thought this was the preferred way to check. I seem to recall a discussion about this and agreement that this was the best way to detect events. The WHATWG spec [1] itself says the following: When support for a feature is disabled (e.g. as an emergency measure to mitigate a security problem, or to aid in development, or for performance reasons), user agents must act as if they had no support for the feature whatsoever, and as if the feature was not mentioned in this specification. For example, if a particular feature is accessed via an attribute in a Web IDL interface, the attribute itself would be omitted from the objects that implement that interface — leaving the attribute on the object but making it return null or throw an exception is insufficient. If the feature is not yet implemented then the same principle should apply IMO (if that's not implicit in the above). - Rich [1] http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/infrastructure.html#extensibility
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
On May 9, 2012, at 3:14 AM, Anne van Kesteren wrote: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: Where was that discussion? This came up at the WebApps F2F and there was general agreement that if we added new events adding new event handler attributes would make sense. Was there any notes taken? Feature detection of some kind is useful as forcing people to do UA sniffing leads to badness. I am not arguing that it shouldn't be done. I just don't think it as important as most people. For example, even if the device is present, it may be off or not responding. In that case, you'll have a feature that tests positive and never receive any events.
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
There was a related discussion on the mailing list: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-November/029252.html I also found a message from Hixie to me, related to that thread: I agree entirely that if an event has a use case, it makes sense for it to have an event handler attribute. On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: On May 9, 2012, at 3:14 AM, Anne van Kesteren wrote: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: Where was that discussion? This came up at the WebApps F2F and there was general agreement that if we added new events adding new event handler attributes would make sense. Was there any notes taken? Feature detection of some kind is useful as forcing people to do UA sniffing leads to badness. I am not arguing that it shouldn't be done. I just don't think it as important as most people. For example, even if the device is present, it may be off or not responding. In that case, you'll have a feature that tests positive and never receive any events.
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
There is a discussion on the DAP WG, we like the simplicity of the proposal however there is an important feature that is missing which is ability to set the report interval and threshold. Thanks Dzung Tran -Original Message- From: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org [mailto:whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org] On Behalf Of Doug Turner Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 7:31 AM To: Anne van Kesteren Cc: Jonas Sicking; wha...@whatwg.org; Scott González; JOSE MANUEL CANTERA FONSECA; Andrei Popescu; Carr, Wayne Subject: Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events On May 9, 2012, at 3:14 AM, Anne van Kesteren wrote: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: Where was that discussion? This came up at the WebApps F2F and there was general agreement that if we added new events adding new event handler attributes would make sense. Was there any notes taken? Feature detection of some kind is useful as forcing people to do UA sniffing leads to badness. I am not arguing that it shouldn't be done. I just don't think it as important as most people. For example, even if the device is present, it may be off or not responding. In that case, you'll have a feature that tests positive and never receive any events.
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
That is different -- Hixie can chime in. I think the idea is that if you have and dom event handler, you should also have an on event handler attribute. Its meaning is less defined. I do not think it means that if ondevicemotion exists, that means you will always see device motion events. Doug On May 9, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Scott González wrote: There was a related discussion on the mailing list: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-November/029252.html I also found a message from Hixie to me, related to that thread: I agree entirely that if an event has a use case, it makes sense for it to have an event handler attribute. On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: On May 9, 2012, at 3:14 AM, Anne van Kesteren wrote: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: Where was that discussion? This came up at the WebApps F2F and there was general agreement that if we added new events adding new event handler attributes would make sense. Was there any notes taken? Feature detection of some kind is useful as forcing people to do UA sniffing leads to badness. I am not arguing that it shouldn't be done. I just don't think it as important as most people. For example, even if the device is present, it may be off or not responding. In that case, you'll have a feature that tests positive and never receive any events.
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
The original question was How do you detect if the UA supports each of these sensor? I don't think we're asking whether you'd get events, but whether you can detect that the UA actually supports the event. I would think the UA should expose support (via onxxx attributes) if the UA and device actually have support, even if the sensor is turned off. There may be a separate API for determining if the sensor is turned on, but I don't think that's what was being asked. On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: That is different -- Hixie can chime in. I think the idea is that if you have and dom event handler, you should also have an on event handler attribute. Its meaning is less defined. I do not think it means that if ondevicemotion exists, that means you will always see device motion events. Doug On May 9, 2012, at 7:45 AM, Scott González wrote: There was a related discussion on the mailing list: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2010-November/029252.html I also found a message from Hixie to me, related to that thread: I agree entirely that if an event has a use case, it makes sense for it to have an event handler attribute. On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: On May 9, 2012, at 3:14 AM, Anne van Kesteren wrote: On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 5:59 AM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: Where was that discussion? This came up at the WebApps F2F and there was general agreement that if we added new events adding new event handler attributes would make sense. Was there any notes taken? Feature detection of some kind is useful as forcing people to do UA sniffing leads to badness. I am not arguing that it shouldn't be done. I just don't think it as important as most people. For example, even if the device is present, it may be off or not responding. In that case, you'll have a feature that tests positive and never receive any events.
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: Right, but they haven't been a real problem in practice. Neither have we and we have been supporting device orientation for a while in both Chrome (desktop and Android) and Android Web Browser... To me, Doug's proposal seems reasonable. Thanks, Andrei Doug On May 4, 2012, at 2:32 PM, JOSE MANUEL CANTERA FONSECA wrote: but you have the same issue as with motion and orientation which is that you cannot control the watch parameters for the sensor and the side effects of addEventListener De: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org [whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org] En nombre de Doug Turner [do...@mozilla.com] Enviado el: viernes, 04 de mayo de 2012 22:03 Para: Tran, Dzung D CC: wha...@whatwg.org Asunto: Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events I looked at the Sensor API. I was hoping to have something very simple and lightweight. I most likely will implement other sensor types in the same way - simple dom events with attributes that are specific to the event. This is what we did for device motion and orientation, and it has worked out quite well. Thanks! Doug On May 4, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Tran, Dzung D wrote: Hello Doug, Proximity and Light is currently in the Sensor API spec at: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/sensor-api/Overview.html This spec is in process of revising. I am planning to update this in the next couple of days. Thanks Tran -Original Message- From: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org [mailto:whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org] On Behalf Of Doug Turner Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 11:02 AM To: wha...@whatwg.org Subject: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events I have added two new events to Firefox which allow web apps to detect light and proximity changes. http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/device-proximity-sensor/ http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/device-light-sensor/ I'd like feedback and to see if there was any interest in supporting these events in other UAs. Thanks Doug Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nuestra política de envío y recepción de correo electrónico en el enlace situado más abajo. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and receive email on the basis of the terms set out at http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 9:12 PM, Andrei Popescu andr...@google.com wrote: Neither have we and we have been supporting device orientation for a while in both Chrome (desktop and Android) and Android Web Browser... To me, Doug's proposal seems reasonable. Is the expectation that these new events, similar to orientation, fire on an interval of some kind? Describing this in terms of adding and removing event listeners does not seem wise as at some point somebody might start using that for things that do not fire pretty much all the time feeling justified by these proposals. The problem with that, as explained before, is that the event model assumes that addEventListener(...) // nothing happens for a while addEventListener(...) will not cause it to be dispatched twice. Defining these features as events that fire regularly however does not have the same problem. -- Anne — Opera Software http://annevankesteren.nl/
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 12:33 PM, Anne van Kesteren ann...@annevk.nl wrote: On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 9:12 PM, Andrei Popescu andr...@google.com wrote: Neither have we and we have been supporting device orientation for a while in both Chrome (desktop and Android) and Android Web Browser... To me, Doug's proposal seems reasonable. Is the expectation that these new events, similar to orientation, fire on an interval of some kind? Describing this in terms of adding and removing event listeners does not seem wise as at some point somebody might start using that for things that do not fire pretty much all the time feeling justified by these proposals. The problem with that, as explained before, is that the event model assumes that addEventListener(...) // nothing happens for a while addEventListener(...) will not cause it to be dispatched twice. Defining these features as events that fire regularly however does not have the same problem. I think that is how we would semantically define it. The fact that we can turn off the sensor as soon as all event listeners for the event are removed is effectively an implementation detail. But likely an implementation detail that's worth pointing out in the spec so that web pages can take advantage of it and remove event listeners when they want to save battery. The reason that I'm not really happy with this API is the fact that it forces pages to remove all event listeners in order to shut down a sensor. It seems more author friendly to me to allow pages to keep event listeners registered but to have an on/off switch which they can use to control if they want the sensor to be enabled. (Setting it to off would of course only affect if events are delivered to that page. If another page set it to on the UA would still fire the events to the second page, and that page only). Technically we could add such a switch later if the switch's default value is on. / Jonas
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
On May 8, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: The reason that I'm not really happy with this API is the fact that it forces pages to remove all event listeners in order to shut down a sensor. True. I haven't heard of anyone actually worrying about this. It seems more author friendly to me to allow pages to keep event listeners registered but to have an on/off switch which they can use to control if they want the sensor to be enabled. (Setting it to off would of course only affect if events are delivered to that page. If another page set it to on the UA would still fire the events to the second page, and that page only). I do not think we have similar on/off switch APIs for other DOM apis…. Do we? Technically we could add such a switch later if the switch's default value is on. Yup, if there is a demand for it, it is easy to add such a feature. I want to keep these APIs as damn simple as possible. Doug
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: The reason that I'm not really happy with this API is the fact that it forces pages to remove all event listeners in order to shut down a sensor. True. I haven't heard of anyone actually worrying about this. It seems more author friendly to me to allow pages to keep event listeners registered but to have an on/off switch which they can use to control if they want the sensor to be enabled. (Setting it to off would of course only affect if events are delivered to that page. If another page set it to on the UA would still fire the events to the second page, and that page only). I do not think we have similar on/off switch APIs for other DOM apis…. Do we? We haven't really had any other pieces of hardware which a page could want to switch on/off so I'm not sure the question really applies. / Jonas
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
How do you detect if the UA supports each of these sensor? I thought when I first looked at this there was on on the window object for one of them but not the other. But I don't see it for either. -Original Message- From: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org [mailto:whatwg- boun...@lists.whatwg.org] On Behalf Of Jonas Sicking Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 4:02 PM To: Doug Turner Cc: JOSE MANUEL CANTERA FONSECA; wha...@whatwg.org; Andrei Popescu Subject: Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: The reason that I'm not really happy with this API is the fact that it forces pages to remove all event listeners in order to shut down a sensor. True. I haven't heard of anyone actually worrying about this. It seems more author friendly to me to allow pages to keep event listeners registered but to have an on/off switch which they can use to control if they want the sensor to be enabled. (Setting it to off would of course only affect if events are delivered to that page. If another page set it to on the UA would still fire the events to the second page, and that page only). I do not think we have similar on/off switch APIs for other DOM apis…. Do we? We haven't really had any other pieces of hardware which a page could want to switch on/off so I'm not sure the question really applies. / Jonas
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
You don't. This API doesn't have device detection. Don't assume that onXXX means that the UA supports an event. On May 8, 2012, at 6:34 PM, Carr, Wayne wrote: How do you detect if the UA supports each of these sensor? I thought when I first looked at this there was on on the window object for one of them but not the other. But I don't see it for either. -Original Message- From: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org [mailto:whatwg- boun...@lists.whatwg.org] On Behalf Of Jonas Sicking Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 4:02 PM To: Doug Turner Cc: JOSE MANUEL CANTERA FONSECA; wha...@whatwg.org; Andrei Popescu Subject: Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Doug Turner do...@mozilla.com wrote: On May 8, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: The reason that I'm not really happy with this API is the fact that it forces pages to remove all event listeners in order to shut down a sensor. True. I haven't heard of anyone actually worrying about this. It seems more author friendly to me to allow pages to keep event listeners registered but to have an on/off switch which they can use to control if they want the sensor to be enabled. (Setting it to off would of course only affect if events are delivered to that page. If another page set it to on the UA would still fire the events to the second page, and that page only). I do not think we have similar on/off switch APIs for other DOM apis…. Do we? We haven't really had any other pieces of hardware which a page could want to switch on/off so I'm not sure the question really applies. / Jonas
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
On Tuesday, May 8, 2012, Doug Turner wrote: You don't. This API doesn't have device detection. Don't assume that onXXX means that the UA supports an event. I thought this was the preferred way to check. I seem to recall a discussion about this and agreement that this was the best way to detect events.
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
On May 8, 2012, at 7:23 PM, Scott González wrote: On Tuesday, May 8, 2012, Doug Turner wrote: You don't. This API doesn't have device detection. Don't assume that onXXX means that the UA supports an event. I thought this was the preferred way to check. I seem to recall a discussion about this and agreement that this was the best way to detect events. Where was that discussion?
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
Hello Doug, Proximity and Light is currently in the Sensor API spec at: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/sensor-api/Overview.html This spec is in process of revising. I am planning to update this in the next couple of days. Thanks Tran -Original Message- From: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org [mailto:whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org] On Behalf Of Doug Turner Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 11:02 AM To: wha...@whatwg.org Subject: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events I have added two new events to Firefox which allow web apps to detect light and proximity changes. http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/device-proximity-sensor/ http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/device-light-sensor/ I'd like feedback and to see if there was any interest in supporting these events in other UAs. Thanks Doug
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
I looked at the Sensor API. I was hoping to have something very simple and lightweight. I most likely will implement other sensor types in the same way - simple dom events with attributes that are specific to the event. This is what we did for device motion and orientation, and it has worked out quite well. Thanks! Doug On May 4, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Tran, Dzung D wrote: Hello Doug, Proximity and Light is currently in the Sensor API spec at: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/sensor-api/Overview.html This spec is in process of revising. I am planning to update this in the next couple of days. Thanks Tran -Original Message- From: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org [mailto:whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org] On Behalf Of Doug Turner Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 11:02 AM To: wha...@whatwg.org Subject: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events I have added two new events to Firefox which allow web apps to detect light and proximity changes. http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/device-proximity-sensor/ http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/device-light-sensor/ I'd like feedback and to see if there was any interest in supporting these events in other UAs. Thanks Doug
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
but you have the same issue as with motion and orientation which is that you cannot control the watch parameters for the sensor and the side effects of addEventListener De: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org [whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org] En nombre de Doug Turner [do...@mozilla.com] Enviado el: viernes, 04 de mayo de 2012 22:03 Para: Tran, Dzung D CC: wha...@whatwg.org Asunto: Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events I looked at the Sensor API. I was hoping to have something very simple and lightweight. I most likely will implement other sensor types in the same way - simple dom events with attributes that are specific to the event. This is what we did for device motion and orientation, and it has worked out quite well. Thanks! Doug On May 4, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Tran, Dzung D wrote: Hello Doug, Proximity and Light is currently in the Sensor API spec at: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/sensor-api/Overview.html This spec is in process of revising. I am planning to update this in the next couple of days. Thanks Tran -Original Message- From: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org [mailto:whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org] On Behalf Of Doug Turner Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 11:02 AM To: wha...@whatwg.org Subject: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events I have added two new events to Firefox which allow web apps to detect light and proximity changes. http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/device-proximity-sensor/ http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/device-light-sensor/ I'd like feedback and to see if there was any interest in supporting these events in other UAs. Thanks Doug Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nuestra política de envío y recepción de correo electrónico en el enlace situado más abajo. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and receive email on the basis of the terms set out at http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx
Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events
Right, but they haven't been a real problem in practice. Doug On May 4, 2012, at 2:32 PM, JOSE MANUEL CANTERA FONSECA wrote: but you have the same issue as with motion and orientation which is that you cannot control the watch parameters for the sensor and the side effects of addEventListener De: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org [whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org] En nombre de Doug Turner [do...@mozilla.com] Enviado el: viernes, 04 de mayo de 2012 22:03 Para: Tran, Dzung D CC: wha...@whatwg.org Asunto: Re: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events I looked at the Sensor API. I was hoping to have something very simple and lightweight. I most likely will implement other sensor types in the same way - simple dom events with attributes that are specific to the event. This is what we did for device motion and orientation, and it has worked out quite well. Thanks! Doug On May 4, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Tran, Dzung D wrote: Hello Doug, Proximity and Light is currently in the Sensor API spec at: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dap/raw-file/tip/sensor-api/Overview.html This spec is in process of revising. I am planning to update this in the next couple of days. Thanks Tran -Original Message- From: whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org [mailto:whatwg-boun...@lists.whatwg.org] On Behalf Of Doug Turner Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 11:02 AM To: wha...@whatwg.org Subject: [whatwg] Device proximity and light events I have added two new events to Firefox which allow web apps to detect light and proximity changes. http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/device-proximity-sensor/ http://dougturner.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/device-light-sensor/ I'd like feedback and to see if there was any interest in supporting these events in other UAs. Thanks Doug Este mensaje se dirige exclusivamente a su destinatario. Puede consultar nuestra política de envío y recepción de correo electrónico en el enlace situado más abajo. This message is intended exclusively for its addressee. We only send and receive email on the basis of the terms set out at http://www.tid.es/ES/PAGINAS/disclaimer.aspx
