Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
Am Donnerstag, den 16.07.2009, 11:58 +0200 schrieb Arve Bersvendsen: On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 03:23:40 +0200, Nils Dagsson Moskopp nils-dagsson-mosk...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote: Am Mittwoch, den 15.07.2009, 19:16 -0500 schrieb Adam Shannon: It has been tried but Apple will not implement it due to hardware limitations. As if. I somehow recall that a few years ago, a Linux Distribution on Ipod did Vorbis (and Doom, incidentally - that was the original reason for me to put it on said device). http://ipodlinux.org/ seems to be dead, though. The project you're looking for is Rockbox, http://rockbox.org/ -- afaik, it does vorbis decoding in software, and had (has?) a battery lifetime half of what the stock ipod firmware had. Actually, I believe Rockbox is a separate (similar) project. -- Nils Dagsson Moskopp http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 03:23:40 +0200, Nils Dagsson Moskopp nils-dagsson-mosk...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote: Am Mittwoch, den 15.07.2009, 19:16 -0500 schrieb Adam Shannon: It has been tried but Apple will not implement it due to hardware limitations. As if. I somehow recall that a few years ago, a Linux Distribution on Ipod did Vorbis (and Doom, incidentally - that was the original reason for me to put it on said device). http://ipodlinux.org/ seems to be dead, though. The project you're looking for is Rockbox, http://rockbox.org/ -- afaik, it does vorbis decoding in software, and had (has?) a battery lifetime half of what the stock ipod firmware had. -- Arve Bersvendsen Opera Software ASA, http://www.opera.com/
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
Arve Bersvendsen wrote: On Thu, 16 Jul 2009 03:23:40 +0200, Nils Dagsson Moskopp nils-dagsson-mosk...@dieweltistgarnichtso.net wrote: Am Mittwoch, den 15.07.2009, 19:16 -0500 schrieb Adam Shannon: It has been tried but Apple will not implement it due to hardware limitations. As if. I somehow recall that a few years ago, a Linux Distribution on Ipod did Vorbis (and Doom, incidentally - that was the original reason for me to put it on said device). http://ipodlinux.org/ seems to be dead, though. The project you're looking for is Rockbox, http://rockbox.org/ -- afaik, it does vorbis decoding in software, and had (has?) a battery lifetime half of what the stock ipod firmware had. An nice thing is that Rockbox provides CPU-consumption numbers for an interesting set of codecs on various hardware platforms: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/CodecPerformanceComparison Apparently Vorbis is about as complex as MP3, while AAC is a bit more expensive (this may be implementation specific). Anyway, all codecs only use a fraction of the available CPU time and the battery lifetime seems to mostly depend on proper device-dependant power management (here Rockbox lacks a bit, AFAIK). Given Vorbis plays even on old iPods hardware limitations may not be a 100% accurate assessment. Maik
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 3:20 AM, Maik Mertenmaikmer...@googlemail.com wrote: An nice thing is that Rockbox provides CPU-consumption numbers for an interesting set of codecs on various hardware platforms: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/CodecPerformanceComparison Apparently Vorbis is about as complex as MP3, while AAC is a bit more expensive (this may be implementation specific). Anyway, all codecs only use a fraction of the available CPU time and the battery lifetime seems to mostly depend on proper device-dependant power management (here Rockbox lacks a bit, AFAIK). Given Vorbis plays even on old iPods hardware limitations may not be a 100% accurate assessment. Note that hardware limitations isn't as simple as can play. For example a portable player device uses 90% CPU to play things certainly work, but possibly for an unacceptable short time before battery runs out. / Jonas
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Jonas Sicking jo...@sicking.cc wrote: Note that hardware limitations isn't as simple as can play. For example a portable player device uses 90% CPU to play things certainly work, but possibly for an unacceptable short time before battery runs out. We're talking about a baseline audio codec for Web browsers here. A device that can run Web apps for any significant length of time should be able to decode Vorbis for a similar length of time. Rob -- He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. [Isaiah 53:5-6]
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
Jonas Sicking wrote: Note that hardware limitations isn't as simple as can play. For example a portable player device uses 90% CPU to play things certainly work, but possibly for an unacceptable short time before battery runs out. That's correct. Thankfully all mentioned codecs are well below 90% CPU-time consumption and despite Rockbox having no fine-tuned power-management it gives about 8-10 hours of playback for all formats on e.g. the iPod Nano (http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IpodRuntime), while according to Wikipedia this device is supposed to have a battery lifetime with the original firmware of about 14 hours for audio playback. It appears entirely possible that with proper power management and optimized decoders for a specific hardware platform the gap may close, but that's something to be determined by the engineering department. Maik
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
Yet another killer app that uses Vorbis: Spotify! 160kbps for the free service. 320 kbps for the premium one. Of course Apple and microsoft, both being hellbent upon using proprietary technologies and taking every single opportunity they have to leverage any monopoly they have attained[1] will object to Vorbis. The only way to fix this is to get Opera, Mozilla and Google to implement it, and get a lot of content out on the web! -- Keryx Web (Lars Gunther) http://keryx.se/ http://twitter.com/itpastorn/ http://itpastorn.blogspot.com/ 1. Last evidenced by Apple specifically shutting out Palm from iTunes, for no technical reasons whatsoever.
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
2009/7/16 Keryx Web webmas...@keryx.se: Of course Apple and microsoft, both being hellbent upon using proprietary technologies and taking every single opportunity they have to leverage any monopoly they have attained[1] will object to Vorbis. Now, now. Let's assume good faith. I will assume Apple have no objections to Vorbis as a baseline codec for audio, unless and until someone speaking for Apple per se expressly says they do. - d.
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Remco remc...@gmail.com wrote: A few years ago, Vorbis as a baseline codec for audio was dismissed, because it was expected that the audio codec agreed upon to be used with video would also be used with audio. Now that agreement on a codec for video is out of the question, Vorbis can again be considered as a baseline codec for audio. To get the discussion started: a few reasons to require Vorbis for audio: * De facto baseline codec PCM WAV is ridiculous for music and spoken word - the major use cases of audio * Vorbis is the best lossy audio codec * Vorbis is widely adopted by major companies in portable media players * Vorbis is royalty-free It has been tried but Apple will not implement it due to hardware limitations. Remco -- - Adam Shannon ( http://ashannon.us )
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
On Thu, 16 Jul 2009, Remco wrote: A few years ago, Vorbis as a baseline codec for audio was dismissed, because it was expected that the audio codec agreed upon to be used with video would also be used with audio. Now that agreement on a codec for video is out of the question, Vorbis can again be considered as a baseline codec for audio. Given the problem we had with the video codec, I would like to request that those of you interested in getting a standard audio codec do so by directly working with the browser vendors to get an agreement. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
2009/7/16 Adam Shannon ashannon1...@gmail.com: It has been tried but Apple will not implement it due to hardware limitations. Hardware limitations or patent limitations? Either seems ill-matched to evidence-based reasoning. What was Apple's issue with Vorbis audio? I'd like to hear from Apple on this. (Someone who is actually speaking for Apple, not someone who appears to be speaking for Apple then claims oh I was just speaking as myself when called on something unacceptable.) - d.
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 2:16 AM, Adam Shannonashannon1...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Remco remc...@gmail.com wrote: A few years ago, Vorbis as a baseline codec for audio was dismissed, because it was expected that the audio codec agreed upon to be used with video would also be used with audio. Now that agreement on a codec for video is out of the question, Vorbis can again be considered as a baseline codec for audio. To get the discussion started: a few reasons to require Vorbis for audio: * De facto baseline codec PCM WAV is ridiculous for music and spoken word - the major use cases of audio * Vorbis is the best lossy audio codec * Vorbis is widely adopted by major companies in portable media players * Vorbis is royalty-free It has been tried but Apple will not implement it due to hardware limitations. Hardware limitations for audio? I can understand that certain hardware would not be powerful enough for video, but audio? I question the browsing performance of such a device. ;) Also, as I said, it has been implemented in countless portable devices. Hardware limitations cannot be a concern. On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 2:18 AM, Ian Hicksoni...@hixie.ch wrote: Given the problem we had with the video codec, I would like to request that those of you interested in getting a standard audio codec do so by directly working with the browser vendors to get an agreement. Isn't this the place where all browser vendors come together? Remco
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
On Thu, 16 Jul 2009, Remco wrote: On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 2:18 AM, Ian Hicksoni...@hixie.ch wrote: Given the problem we had with the video codec, I would like to request that those of you interested in getting a standard audio codec do so by directly working with the browser vendors to get an agreement. Isn't this the place where all browser vendors come together? I think in practice it will be very difficult to get agreement on this topic without direct one-to-one private discussions. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
Vorbis is the best lossy audio codec - Do you have data to back up this assertion? I am not an expert here, I had the naïve assumption that AAC was better given that major devices (e.g. iPod) use this format over Vorbis. I would love to see some data (other than some studies from 2005 on some forum that Wikipedia links to). Widely adopted ... in portable media players? Really? iPod? Zune? 2009/7/15 Ian Hickson i...@hixie.ch On Thu, 16 Jul 2009, Remco wrote: A few years ago, Vorbis as a baseline codec for audio was dismissed, because it was expected that the audio codec agreed upon to be used with video would also be used with audio. Now that agreement on a codec for video is out of the question, Vorbis can again be considered as a baseline codec for audio. Given the problem we had with the video codec, I would like to request that those of you interested in getting a standard audio codec do so by directly working with the browser vendors to get an agreement. -- Ian Hickson U+1047E)\._.,--,'``.fL http://ln.hixie.ch/ U+263A/, _.. \ _\ ;`._ ,. Things that are impossible just take longer. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 8:27 PM, Adam Shannonashannon1...@gmail.com wrote: This was from an email that Ian posted, I do not know if it is directly from Apple. I am just posting it as reference, you will have to ask Ian to the source/creditability of the statement. Apple refuses to implement Ogg Theora in Quicktime by default (as used by Safari), citing lack of hardware support and an uncertain patent landscape. That says Theora, not Vorbis. I don't recall having heard any statements about hardware or patent issues with Vorbis, offhand. It's all focused on Theora.
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
2009/7/16 Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) ife...@google.com: Vorbis is the best lossy audio codec - Do you have data to back up this assertion? I am not an expert here, I had the naïve assumption that AAC was better given that major devices (e.g. iPod) use this format over Vorbis. I would love to see some data (other than some studies from 2005 on some forum that Wikipedia links to). Well, it's hard to really quantify this, but it's clearly one of the leading audio codecs. Let's say that AAC and Vorbis are of comparable quality. Both utterly destroy PCM WAV. Widely adopted ... in portable media players? Really? iPod? Zune? Cowon/iAudio, iRiver, LG, Samsung, SanDisk, Creative, Google. Those are a few of the companies that support Vorbis: http://wiki.xiph.org/PortablePlayers These companies are huge patent troll magnets. None of them got sued over Vorbis. Remco
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
2009/7/16 Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) ife...@google.com: Widely adopted ... in portable media players? Really? iPod? Zune? Almost every media player I've purchased from the local electronics store here in NZ has Vorbis support. Many of them even support Flac. The notable exception is Apple products. This was without even trying to get one that supported these formats. Xiph maintains a list. There are quite a few: http://wiki.xiph.org/PortablePlayers Chris. -- http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
2009/7/16 Remco remc...@gmail.com: Cowon/iAudio, iRiver, LG, Samsung, SanDisk, Creative, Google. Those are a few of the companies that support Vorbis: http://wiki.xiph.org/PortablePlayers Also everything using the Actions S1 MP3 chipset - almost *all* Chinese MP3/MP4 players. Basically, just not iPod. (Even Microsoft use Vorbis in some of their games.) - d.
Re: [whatwg] Make Vorbis a baseline codec for audio
Am Mittwoch, den 15.07.2009, 19:16 -0500 schrieb Adam Shannon: It has been tried but Apple will not implement it due to hardware limitations. As if. I somehow recall that a few years ago, a Linux Distribution on Ipod did Vorbis (and Doom, incidentally - that was the original reason for me to put it on said device). http://ipodlinux.org/ seems to be dead, though. Cheers, -- Nils Dagsson Moskopp http://dieweltistgarnichtso.net
