Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
David Latapie wrote: HTML 3.0 too had some great ideas. I'm still missing - FN (but CSS3 has something about footnote that may fix this) - LH (caption for list! A must-have) - NOTE (I use ttfor remarks) Did any browser ever actually support any of these? Are any of them recognized anywhere today? Or was it purely a paper spec? -- Elliotte Rusty Harold [EMAIL PROTECTED] Java I/O 2nd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeaulait.org/books/javaio2/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596527500/ref=nosim/cafeaulaitA/
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
Eliotte, Le 14 févr. 2007 à 03:56, Elliotte Harold a écrit : David Latapie wrote: HTML 3.0 too had some great ideas. I'm still missing - FN (but CSS3 has something about footnote that may fix this) - LH (caption for list! A must-have) - NOTE (I use ttfor remarks) Did any browser ever actually support any of these? Are any of them recognized anywhere today? Or was it purely a paper spec? You are ready to read this. (Any ressemblance with recent events would be… blabla) ;) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Jan/0037 [[[ We started with a simple plan, W3C's Dave Raggett explains. We'd only put in things that were being used as of January 1st, 1996. That isn't a particularly ambitious undertaking, but it got the project off to a good start. Also we decided that the joint spec didn't have to specify everything. It just had to specify things that we felt comfortable about. In a sense it was a reverse-engineering assignment, Dan Connolly, the group's chair adds. We wanted to take what people were already doing and write it up. Basically we had to decide which elements we were going to bless. By concentrating on existing practice only, the ERB was able to get a non-controversial start. But were they just laying down track after the train had gone by? ]]] -- W3C Journal http://www.w3journal.com/5/s1.discussn.html Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:38:45 GMT Many other interesting things to read in Advancing HTML: Style and Substance Volume 2, Issue 1 (Winter 1997) http://www.w3journal.com/5/toc.html -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 09:01:35 +0530, Charles McCathieNevile wrote: On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 02:55:51 +0530, David Latapie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:07:49 +0100, Jorgen Horstink wrote: - LH (caption for list! A must-have) Why not using the title attribute? Do you mean ul title=foo ol title=foo ? attribute values suck as a way of encoding text that should be presented. They don't do i18n well, it is impossible to highlight/emphasise/denote the importance of some part of the text, etc etc. We agree. That is why, out of div-ing a list and the previous paragraph (which is not a real solution), I don't see any way to semantically attach a “caption” to a list, particularly an ordered one. -- /david_latapie U+0F00 http://blog.empyree.org/en (English) http://blog.empyree.org/fr (Français) http://blog.empyree.org/sl (Slovensko)
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
On Feb 9, 2007, at 4:31 AM, Charles McCathieNevile wrote: On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 02:55:51 +0530, David Latapie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 21:07:49 +0100, Jorgen Horstink wrote: - LH (caption for list! A must-have) Why not using the title attribute? Do you mean ul title=foo ol title=foo ? attribute values suck as a way of encoding text that should be presented. They don't do i18n well, it is impossible to highlight/emphasise/denote the importance of some part of the text, etc etc. I totally agree. But then I would suggest to use some sort of title element. But that would not make sense because it conflicts with Hx. But if we want something like LH for lists, the question is; aren't there other elements which can use some sort of caption/title/header? How about images (viewing the title of the image seems useful to me)? I understand the issue, but why not using some sort of semantic binding between Hx's and the list? Is there some sort of Semantic Binding Language somewhere out there? I've never got the point of the for attribute. That seems to me some sort of basic semantic binding. There are actually other use cases of binding different elements semanticly together. One can say grouping the Hx and List within a DIV element would do just fine, but i do not agree. For example; it would be useful to bind a list item from the index to the actual section. You get my point? This is just some vague idea... I don't know if such a language actually is needed, but how about broaden the scope of the for attribute ? h4 for=myListsome title/h4 ul id=myList lifoo libar /ul But to be honest, this looks silly to me too. My main concern is; does a LH attribute cover the entire problem of 'heading' some element, or is another mechanism needed to solve the issue if the problem is broader? cheers Chaals -- Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try Opera 9.1 http://opera.com
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 18:12:58 +0530, Jorgen Horstink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I understand the issue, but why not using some sort of semantic binding between Hx's and the list? Is there some sort of Semantic Binding Language somewhere out there? I've never got the point of the for attribute. That seems to me some sort of basic semantic binding. There are actually other use cases of binding different elements semanticly together. One can say grouping the Hx and List within a DIV element would do just fine, but i do not agree. For example; it would be useful to bind a list item from the index to the actual section. You get my point? This is just some vague idea... I don't know if such a language actually is needed, but how about broaden the scope of the for attribute ? h4 for=myListsome title/h4 ul id=myList lifoo libar /ul for is meant to work like that, although currently only for the label element. A simple alternative would be to make the content model for lists be (hX)?(li)*, no? cheers Chaals -- Charles McCathieNevile, Opera Software: Standards Group hablo español - je parle français - jeg lærer norsk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try Opera 9.1 http://opera.com
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
On 9 Feb 2007, at 07:47, Karl Dubost wrote: Le 8 févr. 2007 à 20:17, Nicholas Shanks a écrit : On 6 Feb 2007, at 07:57, Karl Dubost wrote: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_1.html I wish the imagefallback/image tags had made it through the years. It's so much better than img alt=blah and doesn't suffer from the self-closing-tag-in-html problem. like object? Yes, like it, but with a different name. A nicer name than IMG. One with three vowels. One that only accepts image/* content types. One with a more specific usage that can be controlled independently of OBJECT through CSS 1/2. - Nicholas. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
Nicholas Shanks wrote: Yes, like it, but with a different name. A nicer name than IMG. One with three vowels. One that only accepts image/* content types. One with a more specific usage that can be controlled independently of OBJECT through CSS 1/2. Strictly, you don't really need a second element for independent selection. CSS 2: object[type=image/jpeg], object[type=image/gif] Draft CSS 3: object[type^=image/] -- Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
On 6 Feb 2007, at 07:57, Karl Dubost wrote: unlikely. div and span elements didn't exist in HTML+. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_1.html Ironically I was just reading that earlier today, then saw your post! (I hadn't been reading this thread.) I wish the imagefallback/image tags had made it through the years. It's so much better than img alt=blah and doesn't suffer from the self-closing-tag-in-html problem. - Nicholas. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:17:32 +, Nicholas Shanks wrote: On 6 Feb 2007, at 07:57, Karl Dubost wrote: unlikely. div and span elements didn't exist in HTML+. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_1.html Ironically I was just reading that earlier today, then saw your post! (I hadn't been reading this thread.) I wish the imagefallback/image tags had made it through the years. It's so much better than img alt=blah and doesn't suffer from the self-closing-tag-in-html problem. HTML 3.0 too had some great ideas. I'm still missing - FN (but CSS3 has something about footnote that may fix this) - LH (caption for list! A must-have) - NOTE (I use ttfor remarks) Some others I don't miss much but seemed good - ISINDEX (well, I'm not missing it, I just never understood what it was meant for) - PERSON and AU (why were they removed while CITE and ADDRESS are still there?) -- /david_latapie U+0F00 http://blog.empyree.org/en (English) http://blog.empyree.org/fr (Français) http://blog.empyree.org/sl (Slovensko)
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
On Feb 8, 2007, at 9:00 PM, David Latapie wrote: On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 19:17:32 +, Nicholas Shanks wrote: On 6 Feb 2007, at 07:57, Karl Dubost wrote: unlikely. div and span elements didn't exist in HTML+. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_1.html Ironically I was just reading that earlier today, then saw your post! (I hadn't been reading this thread.) I wish the imagefallback/image tags had made it through the years. It's so much better than img alt=blah and doesn't suffer from the self-closing-tag-in-html problem. HTML 3.0 too had some great ideas. I'm still missing - FN (but CSS3 has something about footnote that may fix this) - LH (caption for list! A must-have) Why not using the title attribute? - NOTE (I use ttfor remarks) Some others I don't miss much but seemed good - ISINDEX (well, I'm not missing it, I just never understood what it was meant for) - PERSON and AU (why were they removed while CITE and ADDRESS are still there?) -- /david_latapie U+0F00 http://blog.empyree.org/en (English) http://blog.empyree.org/fr (Français) http://blog.empyree.org/sl (Slovensko)
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
Hi, On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:00:01 +0100, David Latapie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - LH (caption for list! A must-have) Also... http://www.sitepoint.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448982 Regards, -- Simon Pieters
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
Le 8 févr. 2007 à 20:17, Nicholas Shanks a écrit : On 6 Feb 2007, at 07:57, Karl Dubost wrote: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_1.html I wish the imagefallback/image tags had made it through the years. It's so much better than img alt=blah and doesn't suffer from the self-closing-tag-in-html problem. like object? http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#edef-OBJECT See http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/jun2004/ http://webstandards.org/learn/askw3c/may2005.html http://webstandards.org/learn/askw3c/object-tests.html http://esw.w3.org/topic/ObjectTestResults -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
Karl Dubost wrote: Le 5 févr. 2007 à 22:40, Elliotte Harold a écrit : Has anyone written an XSLT stylesheet that downgrades HTML 5 to classic HTML+ appropriate div class='' and span class='' elements? With the right CSS, this might make a lot of it deployable today. If not, I may take a whack at it. unlikely. div and span elements didn't exist in HTML+. I forgot (or never knew) there was something called HTML+. I just meant classic HTML plus the div class='' and span class='' elements. :-) It might be possible to write an XSLT to convert HTML 5 to HTML 4.01 and/or XHTML 1.0 but loosing some elements. That would be cool indeed if you could write it. Tag soup parser to normalize to XHTML 1.0 or XHTML 1.1 is indeed a great idea. I don't think XSLT is the best tool to do that, but I would be happy to hear your thoughts about it. It's a pretty straight-forward transform problem, and this is exactly what XSLT is designed to do. It would probably have to be done in two parts. First make the document well-formed (possibly with a TagSoup fork). Then run the stylesheet. The problem with TagSoup is that it treats bogons (unknown elements as empty). It also doesn't quite follow Web Apps 1.0's error recovery algorithm. Possibly I could base the initial step on html5lib instead. -- Elliotte Rusty Harold [EMAIL PROTECTED] Java I/O 2nd Edition Just Published! http://www.cafeaulait.org/books/javaio2/ http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596527500/ref=nosim/cafeaulaitA/
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
On Feb 6, 2007, at 13:23, Elliotte Harold wrote: It would probably have to be done in two parts. First make the document well-formed (possibly with a TagSoup fork). Then run the stylesheet. The problem with TagSoup is that it treats bogons (unknown elements as empty). It also doesn't quite follow Web Apps 1.0's error recovery algorithm. Possibly I could base the initial step on html5lib instead. My parser[1] doesn't follow the WA10 parsing algorithm, either, *yet*. However, as a tentative Pythonless Java solution, you could use it together with a RELAX NG validator in the pipeline (using the whattf.org schemas[2]) to implement Draconian failure in cases where the error recovery would kick in as per the WA10 parsing algorithm. Basically, the parser would report to a ContentHandler splitter. The splitter would show each SAX event to Jing/oNVDL first. The validator would use DraconianErrorHandler (Jing/oNVDL is fail-fast). Second, each SAX event would be shown to a TrAX TransformerHandler. [1] http://hsivonen.iki.fi/validator-about/htmlparser.jar [2] http://syntax.whattf.org/ -- Henri Sivonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
Le 5 févr. 2007 à 22:40, Elliotte Harold a écrit : Has anyone written an XSLT stylesheet that downgrades HTML 5 to classic HTML+ appropriate div class='' and span class='' elements? With the right CSS, this might make a lot of it deployable today. If not, I may take a whack at it. unlikely. div and span elements didn't exist in HTML+. It might be possible to write an XSLT to convert HTML 5 to HTML 4.01 and/or XHTML 1.0 but loosing some elements. That would be cool indeed if you could write it. Tag soup parser to normalize to XHTML 1.0 or XHTML 1.1 is indeed a great idea. I don't think XSLT is the best tool to do that, but I would be happy to hear your thoughts about it. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 -- HTML
Le 6 févr. 2007 à 08:55, Karl Dubost a écrit : Le 5 févr. 2007 à 22:40, Elliotte Harold a écrit : Has anyone written an XSLT stylesheet that downgrades HTML 5 to classic HTML+ appropriate div class='' and span class='' elements? With the right CSS, this might make a lot of it deployable today. If not, I may take a whack at it. unlikely. div and span elements didn't exist in HTML+. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_1.html -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
