[Wien] Questions on the quantitative understanding of DOS and partial DOS
Dear WIEN2k developers and users,
I have some problem in quantitative understanding the DOS and partial DOS
plots/data. I post the question with a case assumption of room temperature
(RT) structure of BaTiO3. As it is well known BaTiO3 has tetragonal
structure at RT. Now, Ba and Ti has one site and O has two sites. If the
DOS partial DOS are calculated for BaTiO3, I will get total DOS for the
unit cell which contains one formula unit of BaTiO3. I will also get
partial DOS of Ba, Ti and O1 and O2 (in terms of total and from individual
orbital contribution like s, p and d whichever are applicable.) Here are my
questions:
1. Will the sum of total DOS individual atoms [i.e., total DOS of (Ba + Ti
+ O1 + O2)] be exactly equal to total DOS of the unit cell? If the answer
is No, why?
2. Will the total DOS of any specific atom, say Ti, will be exactly equal
to the sum of orbital contributions [i.e., partial DOS of (Ti-s + Ti-p +
Ti-d)]? If the answer is No, why?
Another related question: Let us assume a hypothetical structure where in I
have two formula units of BaTiO3 in a unit cell. That is the unit cell has
Ba2Ti2O6. Now the question is the following:
3. Should I need to multiply 2 to the total DOS of individual atoms {i.e.,
2*[total DOS of (Ba + Ti + O1 + O2)]} to get the total DOS of the unit cell
with two formula unit? Will this sum be exactly equal to the actual total
DOS of the unit cell which we get as it is from the calculations?
Please explain me to clear these my questions. I wish also to get into
reading any material/user guide/article/document which could help me to
have a complete understanding on this issue.
Thanks.
With kind regards,
K. Balamurugan.
--
*K. Balamurugan
Pittsburgh, USA.
+1 412 961 5055*
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[Wien] Questions on the quantitative understanding of DOS and partial DOS
Dear Lee and David,
Thanks for your quick answers. They were really helpful to me. I wish I
should read more on this topic.
With kind regards
K. Balamurugan
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 12:47 PM, David Tompsett dat36 at cam.ac.uk wrote:
Dear Balamurugan,
Some answers below and many previous postings:
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 4:24 PM, J. K. Balamurugan
albertbalagan at gmail.com wrote:
Dear WIEN2k developers and users,
I have some problem in quantitative understanding the DOS and partial DOS
plots/data. I post the question with a case assumption of room temperature
(RT) structure of BaTiO3. As it is well known BaTiO3 has tetragonal
structure at RT. Now, Ba and Ti has one site and O has two sites. If the
DOS partial DOS are calculated for BaTiO3, I will get total DOS for the
unit cell which contains one formula unit of BaTiO3. I will also get
partial DOS of Ba, Ti and O1 and O2 (in terms of total and from individual
orbital contribution like s, p and d whichever are applicable.) Here are my
questions:
1. Will the sum of total DOS individual atoms [i.e., total DOS of (Ba +
Ti + O1 + O2)] be exactly equal to total DOS of the unit cell? If the
answer is No, why?
No, the interstitial states contribution is missing. Only the area inside
the muffin tin is included in the partial DOS.
2. Will the total DOS of any specific atom, say Ti, will be exactly equal
to the sum of orbital contributions [i.e., partial DOS of (Ti-s + Ti-p +
Ti-d)]? If the answer is No, why?
Yes, but I think even further depending on how many l-values are in the
basis set.
Another related question: Let us assume a hypothetical structure where in
I have two formula units of BaTiO3 in a unit cell. That is the unit cell
has Ba2Ti2O6. Now the question is the following:
3. Should I need to multiply 2 to the total DOS of individual atoms
{i.e., 2*[total DOS of (Ba + Ti + O1 + O2)]} to get the total DOS of the
unit cell with two formula unit? Will this sum be exactly equal to the
actual total DOS of the unit cell which we get as it is from the
calculations?
Yes. Then no not total DOS of cell, see point 1.
Please explain me to clear these my questions. I wish also to get into
reading any material/user guide/article/document which could help me to
have a complete understanding on this issue.
Thanks.
With kind regards,
K. Balamurugan.
David Tompsett.
--
*K. Balamurugan
Pittsburgh, USA.
+1 412 961 5055*
___
Wien mailing list
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http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wien
___
Wien mailing list
Wien at zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at
http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wien
--
*K. Balamurugan
Pittsburgh, USA.
+1 412 961 5055*
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[Wien] Missing data in DOS plot data file
Dear Prof. Blaha, I am sorry that still I am with the same problem. I do not find any in the qtl file. I also tried with the qtl program to generate case.qtlup/dn. I could not get rid of the problem of missing data points. Additionally, I tried with calculating the same for another similar compound. The same problem came with little difference/improvement came up: the DOS for spin up electrons are fine but for spin down electrons the data are missing in the data file while the picture showed no problem! I tried change the energy range of my calculation; I tried in the number of partial DOS (of different atoms) in the DOS calculation. Every time I did, NaN comes in the energy range 1.97692 to 2.30346 eV for the spin down electrons - even though the plot is free from this problem (please see the attached picture). Note that this time the data are missing above the Fermi level. I tried many repetition and approaches and now I am tired! Was this could be the problem with the memory usage since we in our group three scholars calculate using the same machine simultaneously? With regards K. Balamurugan Pittsburgh, USA On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Peter Blaha pblaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.atwrote: Maybe there are in the qtl file ? Check the bands with energies just below EF. Alternatively, try the qtl program to generate case.qtlup/dn Am 21.11.2011 17:24, schrieb J. K. Balamurugan: Dear Prof. Blaha, Thanks for the suggestions. There is no NaN in either case.qtlup/dn file. I could find full data plot when the total DOS for spin down electrons alone is selected in the Edit input-file for TETRA menu. The problem of missing data persists if I select the partial DOS of different atoms and orbitals in the system. But, for me it is necessary to resolve the partial DOS. Thanks. On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 1:49 AM, Peter Blaha pblaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.at mailto:pblaha at theochem.**tuwien.ac.atpblaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.at wrote: Check case.qtlup/dn. Are there some NaN as well ? It could come from some not well set energy parameters. Am 21.11.2011 02:58, schrieb J. K. Balamurugan: Dear Wien2k developers and users, I am using Wien2k 11.1 version for calculating band structure thee and DOS of some non-magnetic and magnetic systems. Fewer times I find that in the DOS plots and in the DOS data file a portion of data is missing! I use PBE-GGA functional with 1000 k-points and RKmax = 8 for my calculations. The structure is non-centrosymmetric. In the case of a non-magnetic quaternary semiconducting sulfide, I got the DOS plot and data wherein some portion of graph and data were missing. I recalculated the DOS and found the same problem. I repeated the whole calculation in another folder/experiment starting from structure generation, initialization etc, yet the problem persists. After that I left that work as it is - uncompleted! Following the above I calculated another magnetic system in which Fe is the magnetic element with same structure and I got everything fine. Full DOS data and plot I got. But, when I continued the same method for a third compound with the same structure I got that problem again. DOS of spin up electrons' plot and graph are perfectly OK. But, for spin down electrons I got the same problem that some portion of data are missing. I have attached a picture file (*png format). Please view and note that in energy range -0.38355 eV to -0.05701 eV, in the pictures there is no graph-line showing the DOS and correspondingly the letters NaN instead of numbers appear in the data file. (I am not able to send the data file as the file size bigger than the allowed 40kB for the mailinglist.) I do not know any other users faced this problem in Wien2k. I am also looking for some suggestions to get the full data and graph-line in the picture. Thanks. With kind regards, K. Balamurugan Pittsburgh, USA. __**___ Wien mailing list Wien at zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac._**_at mailto:Wien at zeus.theochem.** tuwien.ac.at Wien at zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.__**ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wienhttp://ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wien http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.**ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wienhttp://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wien -- P.Blaha --**__** --__-- Peter BLAHA, Inst.f. Materials Chemistry, TU Vienna, A-1060 Vienna Phone: +43-1-58801-165300 tel:%2B43-1-58801-165300 FAX: +43-1-58801-165982 tel:%2B43-1-58801-165982 Email: blaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.at mailto:blaha at theochem.tuwien.** ac.at blaha
[Wien] Missing data in DOS plot data file
Dear Prof. Blaha, Thanks for the suggestions. There is no NaN in either case.qtlup/dn file. I could find full data plot when the total DOS for spin down electrons alone is selected in the Edit input-file for TETRA menu. The problem of missing data persists if I select the partial DOS of different atoms and orbitals in the system. But, for me it is necessary to resolve the partial DOS. Thanks. On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 1:49 AM, Peter Blaha pblaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.atwrote: Check case.qtlup/dn. Are there some NaN as well ? It could come from some not well set energy parameters. Am 21.11.2011 02:58, schrieb J. K. Balamurugan: Dear Wien2k developers and users, I am using Wien2k 11.1 version for calculating band structure thee and DOS of some non-magnetic and magnetic systems. Fewer times I find that in the DOS plots and in the DOS data file a portion of data is missing! I use PBE-GGA functional with 1000 k-points and RKmax = 8 for my calculations. The structure is non-centrosymmetric. In the case of a non-magnetic quaternary semiconducting sulfide, I got the DOS plot and data wherein some portion of graph and data were missing. I recalculated the DOS and found the same problem. I repeated the whole calculation in another folder/experiment starting from structure generation, initialization etc, yet the problem persists. After that I left that work as it is - uncompleted! Following the above I calculated another magnetic system in which Fe is the magnetic element with same structure and I got everything fine. Full DOS data and plot I got. But, when I continued the same method for a third compound with the same structure I got that problem again. DOS of spin up electrons' plot and graph are perfectly OK. But, for spin down electrons I got the same problem that some portion of data are missing. I have attached a picture file (*png format). Please view and note that in energy range -0.38355 eV to -0.05701 eV, in the pictures there is no graph-line showing the DOS and correspondingly the letters NaN instead of numbers appear in the data file. (I am not able to send the data file as the file size bigger than the allowed 40kB for the mailinglist.) I do not know any other users faced this problem in Wien2k. I am also looking for some suggestions to get the full data and graph-line in the picture. Thanks. With kind regards, K. Balamurugan Pittsburgh, USA. __**_ Wien mailing list Wien at zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.**at Wien at zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.**ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wienhttp://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wien -- P.Blaha --**--** -- Peter BLAHA, Inst.f. Materials Chemistry, TU Vienna, A-1060 Vienna Phone: +43-1-58801-165300 FAX: +43-1-58801-165982 Email: blaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.atWWW: http://info.tuwien.ac.at/** theochem/ http://info.tuwien.ac.at/theochem/ --**--** -- __**_ Wien mailing list Wien at zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.**at Wien at zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.**ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wienhttp://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wien -- *K. Balamurugan Pittsburgh, USA. +1 412 961 5055* -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/pipermail/wien/attachments/2021/d75f17a2/attachment.htm
[Wien] Missing data in DOS plot data file
Prof. Peter, I thank you for the quick reply. I am sorry about the number of files that I had attached and had given less information. I am sending that problem to Wien2k mailing ID again with more information and only two files. I hope that this will be helpful to the other users also. With regards K. Balamurugan Pittsburg, USA. On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 4:53 AM, Peter Blaha pblaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.atwrote: I can see that you have NaN (not a numeric value) in the data file. Unfortunately, I cannot tell you anything why this happens, because you do not tell me anything. PS: send email WITHOUT html-format, and not 4 pictures at once. It is rather clear that when the data file is not ok, the pictures will not be correct. -- --**--- Peter Blaha Inst. Materials Chemistry, TU Vienna Getreidemarkt 9, A-1060 Vienna, Austria Tel: +43-1-5880115671 Fax: +43-1-5880115698 email: pblaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.at --**--- __**_ Wien mailing list Wien at zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.**at Wien at zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.**ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wienhttp://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wien -- *K. Balamurugan Pittsburgh, USA. +1 412 961 5055* -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/pipermail/wien/attachments/2020/93ad77b0/attachment.htm
[Wien] Missing data in DOS plot data file
Dear Wien2k developers and users, I am using Wien2k 11.1 version for calculating band structure thee and DOS of some non-magnetic and magnetic systems. Fewer times I find that in the DOS plots and in the DOS data file a portion of data is missing! I use PBE-GGA functional with 1000 k-points and RKmax = 8 for my calculations. The structure is non-centrosymmetric. In the case of a non-magnetic quaternary semiconducting sulfide, I got the DOS plot and data wherein some portion of graph and data were missing. I recalculated the DOS and found the same problem. I repeated the whole calculation in another folder/experiment starting from structure generation, initialization etc, yet the problem persists. After that I left that work as it is - uncompleted! Following the above I calculated another magnetic system in which Fe is the magnetic element with same structure and I got everything fine. Full DOS data and plot I got. But, when I continued the same method for a third compound with the same structure I got that problem again. DOS of spin up electrons' plot and graph are perfectly OK. But, for spin down electrons I got the same problem that some portion of data are missing. I have attached a picture file (*png format). Please view and note that in energy range -0.38355 eV to -0.05701 eV, in the pictures there is no graph-line showing the DOS and correspondingly the letters NaN instead of numbers appear in the data file. (I am not able to send the data file as the file size bigger than the allowed 40kB for the mailinglist.) I do not know any other users faced this problem in Wien2k. I am also looking for some suggestions to get the full data and graph-line in the picture. Thanks. With kind regards, K. Balamurugan Pittsburgh, USA. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/pipermail/wien/attachments/2020/2d2b3166/attachment.htm -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Tot-DOS-DN.png Type: image/png Size: 4970 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/pipermail/wien/attachments/2020/2d2b3166/attachment.png
[Wien] Symmetry pts in Brillouin zone
Dear Peter sir, Thanks once again. As long as nothing comes wrong, I think, that will be OK for me. I also hope as time goes I would learn to define the k-vector list manually. Thank you. On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:48 AM, Peter Blaha pblaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.atwrote: Yes, w2web reads the crystal lattice (P, B, F, H) and takes automatically the corresponding template. However, w2web does not take into account the spacegroup (symmetry) and cannot distinguish between eg. a cubic P and a tetragonal P lattice, but uses always the same template (for a cubic case). While in this way it will not make anything wrong, but your bandstructure will eventually be shown not in (all) interesting directions. Am 16.09.2011 04:49, schrieb J. K. Balamurugan: Dear Peter sir, Thanks for your inputs. I have made basic DOS band structure calculations for at least 10 different compounds of different structure. I have been using the Create case.klist_band button whenever XCrysDen does not work. I also noticed that there are bcc, fcc, hcp, simple_cubic and from xcrysden pulldown options, but I never chose anything from them but simply click on the Create case.klist_band and proceeded the calculations. I have done the same way for simple cubic, bcc, fcc, tetragonal, orthorhombic, monoclinic crsystals and repeated the calculations for many of them. My doubt now is that whether it is OK if I click on the Create case.klist_band button and proceed the calculations for whatever be the symmetry of the crystal and Wien2k will take care of the right high symmetry points in IBZ with a suitable sequences? _Please read the below if you need more inputs regarding my calculations and results related to this problem:_ I found that though I do not select any template specific to the crystal system/structure of the compound I work with, the band structure comes out with different symmetry points (symbols) for differenct crystal structure and they are reproduced if the calculations are made for the same crysstal structure (of the same compound.) For example: I made a calculation for CuFeS2 chalcopyrite (tetragonal I-42d) structure. I made three different calculations each one with the assumption that the compund is (i) non-magnetic/paramagnetic, (ii) ferromagnetic with Fe moments up, and (iii) antiferromagnetic with 50% Fe moments up and 50% down. In the case (i) and (ii) the band structure plot came with the symmetry points Gamma, Delta, H, N, Sigma, Gamma, Lamda and P. This is the same sequence which is coming for any compound with same tetragonal I-42d sturture; I have done such calculations for another 2 more compounds. In case (iii) in order to implement the antiferromagnetism I represented the crystal data using P1 space group since in I-42d Fe has only one set of fractional coordinates. This changed the shape and symmetry of the BZ which I was able to view in XCrysDen while beginning my calculations. Unfortunately, XCrysDen did not run while I calculate the band structure. So I used the Create case.klist_band button without selecting any template. I got the band structure with the high symmetry points R, Lamda, Gamma, Delta, X, Z, M, Sigma, Gamma. (This points with same sequence came in the band structure of another compound of the type of formula A2BCD4 which actually has monoclinic structure - Pn space group.) Therefore, I concluded that Wien2k takes care of a set of high symmetry k-points (though it may be having a random path) in a sequence which is specific to the symmetry of the crystal system/lattice that is uesed in the calculations. Thanks for the kind help. On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 3:08 AM, Peter Blaha pblaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.at mailto:pblaha at theochem.**tuwien.ac.atpblaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.atp wrote: Just a short reminder: Have you noticed the filed left to Create case.klist_band Button ??? Wien2k has some templates for fcc,bcc,simple-cubic and hcp BZ (These are arbitrarily chosen paths through the BZ) and of course if you have one of those symmetries, you can select the appropriate one and then click the button. Alternatively you can choose From xcrysden (and Click Create), or you have to define the k-vector list manual. The Bilbao-site helps you to see the BZ and coordinates and names of special k-points. I need to know one small information: on what basis the sequences of high symmetry points of the Brillouin zones are chosen? I know that XCrysDen would help to choose any sequence we like; but, there often times in our system XCrysDen does not run! In such situations we use the Brillouinzones from Bilbao Cryst Server http://www.cryst.ehu.es/cgi-_**_bin/cryst/programs/nph-table?** __from=kvhttp://www.cryst.ehu.es/cgi-__bin/cryst/programs/nph-table?__from=kv http://www.cryst.ehu.es/cgi-**bin/cryst/programs/nph-table?**from=kvhttp://www.cryst.ehu.es/cgi-bin/cryst
[Wien] Symmetry pts in Brillouin zone
Dear Peter sir, Thanks for your inputs. I have made basic DOS band structure calculations for at least 10 different compounds of different structure. I have been using the Create case.klist_band button whenever XCrysDen does not work. I also noticed that there are bcc, fcc, hcp, simple_cubic and from xcrysden pulldown options, but I never chose anything from them but simply click on the Create case.klist_band and proceeded the calculations. I have done the same way for simple cubic, bcc, fcc, tetragonal, orthorhombic, monoclinic crsystals and repeated the calculations for many of them. My doubt now is that whether it is OK if I click on the Create case.klist_band button and proceed the calculations for whatever be the symmetry of the crystal and Wien2k will take care of the right high symmetry points in IBZ with a suitable sequences? *Please read the below if you need more inputs regarding my calculations and results related to this problem:* I found that though I do not select any template specific to the crystal system/structure of the compound I work with, the band structure comes out with different symmetry points (symbols) for differenct crystal structure and they are reproduced if the calculations are made for the same crysstal structure (of the same compound.) For example: I made a calculation for CuFeS2 chalcopyrite (tetragonal I-42d) structure. I made three different calculations each one with the assumption that the compund is (i) non-magnetic/paramagnetic, (ii) ferromagnetic with Fe moments up, and (iii) antiferromagnetic with 50% Fe moments up and 50% down. In the case (i) and (ii) the band structure plot came with the symmetry points Gamma, Delta, H, N, Sigma, Gamma, Lamda and P. This is the same sequence which is coming for any compound with same tetragonal I-42d sturture; I have done such calculations for another 2 more compounds. In case (iii) in order to implement the antiferromagnetism I represented the crystal data using P1 space group since in I-42d Fe has only one set of fractional coordinates. This changed the shape and symmetry of the BZ which I was able to view in XCrysDen while beginning my calculations. Unfortunately, XCrysDen did not run while I calculate the band structure. So I used the Create case.klist_band button without selecting any template. I got the band structure with the high symmetry points R, Lamda, Gamma, Delta, X, Z, M, Sigma, Gamma. (This points with same sequence came in the band structure of another compound of the type of formula A2BCD4 which actually has monoclinic structure - Pn space group.) Therefore, I concluded that Wien2k takes care of a set of high symmetry k-points (though it may be having a random path) in a sequence which is specific to the symmetry of the crystal system/lattice that is uesed in the calculations. Thanks for the kind help. On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 3:08 AM, Peter Blaha pblaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.atpwrote: Just a short reminder: Have you noticed the filed left to Create case.klist_band Button ??? Wien2k has some templates for fcc,bcc,simple-cubic and hcp BZ (These are arbitrarily chosen paths through the BZ) and of course if you have one of those symmetries, you can select the appropriate one and then click the button. Alternatively you can choose From xcrysden (and Click Create), or you have to define the k-vector list manual. The Bilbao-site helps you to see the BZ and coordinates and names of special k-points. I need to know one small information: on what basis the sequences of high symmetry points of the Brillouin zones are chosen? I know that XCrysDen would help to choose any sequence we like; but, there often times in our system XCrysDen does not run! In such situations we use the Brillouinzones from Bilbao Cryst Server http://www.cryst.ehu.es/cgi-**bin/cryst/programs/nph-table?**from=kvhttp://www.cryst.ehu.es/cgi-bin/cryst/programs/nph-table?from=kv option. This one automatically sets the sequence. I like to have more understanding about how this is done. Please let me know any refence papers or we pages which could give me more inputs to understand this. Literature have many different schemes, but I do not know what is used in Wien2k 11.1 Thanks. -- /K. Balamurugan Pittsburgh, USA. +1 412 961 5055/ __**_ Wien mailing list Wien at zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.**at Wien at zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.**ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wienhttp://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/mailman/listinfo/wien -- P.Blaha --**--** -- Peter BLAHA, Inst.f. Materials Chemistry, TU Vienna, A-1060 Vienna Phone: +43-1-58801-15671 FAX: +43-1-58801-15698 Email: blaha at theochem.tuwien.ac.atWWW: http://info.tuwien.ac.at/** theochem/ http://info.tuwien.ac.at/theochem/
[Wien] Symmetry pts in Brillouin zone
Dear Wien2k developers and users, I need to know one small information: on what basis the sequences of high symmetry points of the Brillouin zones are chosen? I know that XCrysDen would help to choose any sequence we like; but, there often times in our system XCrysDen does not run! In such situations we use the Brillouinzones from Bilbao Cryst Serverhttp://www.cryst.ehu.es/cgi-bin/cryst/programs/nph-table?from=kv option. This one automatically sets the sequence. I like to have more understanding about how this is done. Please let me know any refence papers or we pages which could give me more inputs to understand this. Literature have many different schemes, but I do not know what is used in Wien2k 11.1 Thanks. -- *K. Balamurugan Pittsburgh, USA. +1 412 961 5055* -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://zeus.theochem.tuwien.ac.at/pipermail/wien/attachments/20110914/8d1b5664/attachment.htm
