[Bug 46744] ULS front-end should not appear by default and should instead detect for the intended use cases

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46744

Andre Klapper  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|Unprioritized   |Low
   Severity|normal  |enhancement

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[Bug 46744] ULS front-end should not appear by default and should instead detect for the intended use cases

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46744

--- Comment #11 from Nemo  ---
As you know very well, I'm just a random volunteer who happens to have read
more on the topic; it's possible that some revolution of ULS way forward
suddenly happens, but I can't do anything about it, so I only inform on the
current status (which is very clear).

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[Bug 46744] ULS front-end should not appear by default and should instead detect for the intended use cases

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46744

--- Comment #10 from Isarra  ---
That sort of dismissive attitude and lack of engagement are not helpful in what
it otherwise a collaborative environment and I would urge you to please
reconsider your standpoint. 

If the reasons for having ULS the way it is are compelling, then this bug will
close on its own, but otherwise the request damn well should be fulfilled, even
if it isn't at a particularly high priority.

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[Bug 46744] ULS front-end should not appear by default and should instead detect for the intended use cases

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46744

--- Comment #9 from Nemo  ---
Discussion can continue anyway, it's just helpful if the bug status makes it
clear that the request won't be fulfilled. :)

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[Bug 46744] ULS front-end should not appear by default and should instead detect for the intended use cases

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46744

Isarra  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED
 Resolution|INVALID |---

--- Comment #8 from Isarra  ---
Please stop closing this, Nemo.

Arguing that a bug is invalid does not make it so. There is clearly at least
some backing for this bug, so trying to make the discussion go away is not
going to convince anyone.

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[Bug 46744] ULS front-end should not appear by default and should instead detect for the intended use cases

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46744

Nemo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |INVALID

--- Comment #7 from Nemo  ---
(In reply to comment #3)
> ULS shouldn't be on by default for everyone in the first place, and instead
> detect for the intended use cases.

It already does. The use cases are more than you appear to know, though; have
you read bug 46306?


(In reply to comment #6)
> As someone who has absolutely no need for a different input method (my
> keyboard works just fine), I don't see why I'm being presented with such a
> drop-down menu. Something seems amiss here.
>
> 
> Generally, UniversalLanguageSelector's scope and purpose is unclear to me. As
> someone who writes and reads in English, I have no need for this drop-down
> menu
> or the "english" link in the personal tools section. 

Right: your keyboard, you don't see, to you, you. Not valid as general
assumptions.

> It'd be nice to not add
> clutter to the interface for users like me.

It's quite normal for websites to have such "clutter".

> It also seems that UniversalLanguageSelector's scope has increased from
> being a
> universal language selector to also providing display preferences (e.g., I
> can
> select "OpenDyslexic" as my display font via ULS). It doesn't seem like a
> great
> idea to mix purposes like this.

It can seem a purpose mixing only to you who have decided it can't be
useful/used for English speakers; but it's just your wrong premise. It was a
rather trivial extension of functionality for ULS.

In general: 1) ULS is meant to be useful for all users, including English
speakers blabla, although some obviously benefit from it more than others (but
think of language selection for an article, replacing interlanguage links); 2)
in the current state of technology, there is no way at all to reliably
mind-read the user to know what sort of language options are best in all the
use cases, which is why selectors are needed in the first place.
Therefore, with the current summary, this bug is invalid.
I suggest you to read [[mw:ULS]] completely; for instance the user profile

directly addressed some of the questions.

As for the personal tools, it was found to be the best location for this tool;
the fact that all the preferences related to ULS are available there, instead
of cluttering Special:Preferences with another section of little
discoverability, is something that addresses the concerns about preferences
bloat you mentioned, rather than ignoring them. Anyway, this part is duplicate
of bug 46306.
Of course there are separate bugs for specific tweaks like adjustment of timing
for IME icon, settings from the IME icon itself, some sort of link from
Special:Preferences to the ULS settings; and more tweaks are surely possible.

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[Bug 46744] ULS front-end should not appear by default and should instead detect for the intended use cases

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46744

--- Comment #6 from MZMcBride  ---
(In reply to comment #5)
> I dont find any reason for not giving a turn off option in the preferences
> section.

Well, we really want to avoid user preferences bloat. Every additional user
preference has a somewhat significant cost (in terms of interface clutter,
technical debt, etc.).

That said, the default behavior here seems a bit strange. For example, on
Meta-Wiki, I have "en" set as my user interface language and yet I still see
this somewhat annoying drop-down next to the edit summary input and the search
input. As someone who has absolutely no need for a different input method (my
keyboard works just fine), I don't see why I'm being presented with such a
drop-down menu. Something seems amiss here.

Generally, UniversalLanguageSelector's scope and purpose is unclear to me. As
someone who writes and reads in English, I have no need for this drop-down menu
or the "english" link in the personal tools section. It'd be nice to not add
clutter to the interface for users like me.

It also seems that UniversalLanguageSelector's scope has increased from being a
universal language selector to also providing display preferences (e.g., I can
select "OpenDyslexic" as my display font via ULS). It doesn't seem like a great
idea to mix purposes like this.

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[Bug 46744] ULS front-end should not appear by default and should instead detect for the intended use cases

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46744

sunil  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||vss...@gmail.com

--- Comment #5 from sunil  ---
I always feel that, the developers force users to use ULS even if they dont
want to use it. In wiki user communities, some user need it and some others
dont.

I dont find any reason for not giving a turn off option in the preferences
section.

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[Bug 46744] ULS front-end should not appear by default and should instead detect for the intended use cases

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46744

MZMcBride  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|REOPENED|NEW

--- Comment #4 from MZMcBride  ---
I agree that this bug does not seem like a duplicate of bug 46306. The default
issue in particular should be addressed.

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[Bug 46744] ULS front-end should not appear by default and should instead detect for the intended use cases

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=46744

Isarra  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Summary|ULS is useless for most |ULS front-end should not
   |users and often annoying|appear by default and
   ||should instead detect for
   ||the intended use cases

--- Comment #3 from Isarra  ---
Yes, of course, having the save button where I expect an edit like to be is
very helpful, thank you, Bugzilla.

What I meant to say is that this is not a duplicate, and should be resolved -
even if it can be disabled (and I couldn't find the option in the preferences),
ULS shouldn't be on by default for everyone in the first place, and instead
detect for the intended use cases.

Also wherever the preference is should be more apparent, but since the user
preferences are kind of a mess that's probably a separate issue entirely.

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