[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #15 from John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com --- Chris, could you add a link to that comment. Im interested in why the nowiki edit filter isnt sufficient. Preventing the VE nowiki edit is a bit rude, and is sticky tape of the problem with the VE causing these nowikis. In VE, the user cant _see_ the nowiki causing problem all the time. E.g. A space at the beginning of the line isnt obviously the cause of the nowiki. unless VE explicitly tells them where the nowiki is happening, how can we expect the newbie to figure it out. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #16 from Chris McKenna cmcke...@sucs.org --- (In reply to comment #15) Chris, could you add a link to that comment. It's the second comment by VQuakr at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedbackoldid=566546550#WONTFIX_on_nowiki.27s (that's a permalink to the present version of the page but the discussion may not have concluded yet). -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #17 from kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com --- (In reply to comment #15) Chris, could you add a link to that comment. Im interested in why the nowiki edit filter isnt sufficient. It isn't sufficient because it disappoints the first human involved, this hypothetical new editor that is so confused by all of our existing material that he's errantly typing wikitext into a source window. VE could *help* him, but instead it pops a warning. The warning obviously isn't working, because we see saves of this material happening constantly. He goes ahead and saves it anyway, and he's bewildered and confused: he did just what the little cheat sheet he got from a friend told him to do, and it didn't work. It's insufficient because it requires a second human being to then review the change, figure out what it was that the first human was actually attempting, and then correct it if he can. It's insufficient because it's in support of a use-case that doesn't exist: there's no reason to put something like [[New York City|the Big Apple]] into articles. If there *were*, it's coming from an editor that is quite skilled enough to go into the source editor. If we need to support putting such things in using the visual editor, a workflow can be designed with a nowiki button to do it intentionally. Instead, James Forrester and Erik Moller have decreed that the bug not be fixed, and that volunteers should eagerly flock to monitoring the output of an edit filter that detects each and every time this happens to that these volunteers can fix it. That's repulsive. That's a level of disregard for the volunteers that work on this project that is breathtaking. It's the *reason* that the VE team can fix dozens of bugs each hour and the Wikipedia community still complains that they are non-responsive. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #18 from Kevin Norris nykevin.nor...@gmail.com --- (In reply to comment #17) Instead, James Forrester and Erik Moller have decreed that the bug not be fixed, and that volunteers should eagerly flock to monitoring the output of an edit filter that detects each and every time this happens to that these volunteers can fix it. That's repulsive. That's a level of disregard for the volunteers that work on this project that is breathtaking. It's the *reason* that the VE team can fix dozens of bugs each hour and the Wikipedia community still complains that they are non-responsive. That is bug 49686, not this one. Why are we discussing it here? -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #19 from kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com --- Closely related problems, Kevin Norris: if they would *fix* 49686, this one would go away. This one can't really be fixed because the base condition that causes it should be prevented, not reported. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #20 from Andre Klapper aklap...@wikimedia.org --- (In reply to comment #18) kwwilliams: Unrelated to agreeing or disagreeing with others, could you please assume that people mean well instead of calling names, to keep Bugzilla a friendly place? High-level debates on general development priorities are better placed on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VE/F instead of a bug report which is only meant to be about a *specific* problem *in the code*. Thanks! -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #21 from kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com --- (In reply to comment #20) (In reply to comment #18) kwwilliams: Unrelated to agreeing or disagreeing with others, could you please assume that people mean well instead of calling names, to keep Bugzilla a friendly place? I haven't called anyone names. I don't plan on starting to, either. If you can suggest a friendlier wording to describe a conscious decision not to fix a bug and requiring other people to deal with the consequences of the bug every day forever instead, I'm willing to listen to suggestions. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 Kevin Norris nykevin.nor...@gmail.com changed: What|Removed |Added CC|nykevin.nor...@gmail.com| --- Comment #22 from Kevin Norris nykevin.nor...@gmail.com --- Removing self from CC. Tired of spam. Bug is dead, people. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com changed: What|Removed |Added CC||kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com --- Comment #6 from kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com --- Tell me how an abuse filter can even detect that Visual Editor was involved in the edit before you attempt to close this, please. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #7 from Kevin Norris nykevin.nor...@gmail.com --- Adding a nowiki to an article (as opposed to a template or something) is generally unnecessary and probably in need of a second look, regardless of whether VE added it or the editor added it manually. Wikimarkup simply *doesn't look like* real punctuation, so it's uncommon to need to escape it in running text. As such, I tentatively agree with James here: A VE-only filter would be unnecessary since the broader case is really what we need to go after anyway. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #8 from Richard Morris r...@singsurf.org --- Its possible the abusefilter could be made to detect veaction=edit, then the abuse filter could be made more discriminating, and probably block ve edits with nowiki's. There are many cases where nowiki's are ment from the wikitext. In code samples documentation of templates etc. they always explicitly typed indication an intention from the user. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #9 from Kevin Norris nykevin.nor...@gmail.com --- But code samples and template documentation won't be in mainspace, which the current filter checks for. Legitimate uses of nowiki in mainspace are quite rare, so far as I know. I suppose the articles on e.g. [[MediaWiki]] might use nowiki'd wikitext to show the readers what wikitext looks like, but other than that... -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #10 from kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com --- (In reply to comment #7) Adding a nowiki to an article (as opposed to a template or something) is generally unnecessary and probably in need of a second look, regardless of whether VE added it or the editor added it manually. Wikimarkup simply *doesn't look like* real punctuation, so it's uncommon to need to escape it in running text. As such, I tentatively agree with James here: A VE-only filter would be unnecessary since the broader case is really what we need to go after anyway. You miss the point: in an edit-filter, I would advocate simply blocking the edit if it was VE and not allow it to be saved. If a human being consciously did it, there's at least a remote chance that it was a good edit worthy of examination. There *are* legitimate uses of nowiki, usually things involving bolded and italicized possessives, pipe characters inside of text. It's just that none of the ones created by VE have any merit. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 --- Comment #13 from kwwilli...@kwwilliams.com --- (In reply to comment #11) (In reply to comment #10) (In reply to comment #7) Adding a nowiki to an article (as opposed to a template or something) is generally unnecessary and probably in need of a second look, regardless of whether VE added it or the editor added it manually. Wikimarkup simply *doesn't look like* real punctuation, so it's uncommon to need to escape it in running text. As such, I tentatively agree with James here: A VE-only filter would be unnecessary since the broader case is really what we need to go after anyway. You miss the point: in an edit-filter, I would advocate simply blocking the edit if it was VE and not allow it to be saved. If a human being consciously did it, there's at least a remote chance that it was a good edit worthy of examination. I think that would be an exceptionally-bad thing to do to fellow editors and thus to the wiki at large As was making VE the default editor in the first place, so it's obvious we don't agree some fundamental points. There *are* legitimate uses of nowiki, usually things involving bolded and italicized possessives, pipe characters inside of text. It's just that none of the ones created by VE have any merit. None? None ever? Not even when a user of VisualEditor creates a bolded or italicised possessive? :-) True enough. Which is why you should fix the root bug in the first place instead of pushing it downstream for everyone else to deal with: warning newbies about inserting explicit wikimarkup is obviously still inadequate, as this edit filter still fires. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 Chris McKenna cmcke...@sucs.org changed: What|Removed |Added CC||cmcke...@sucs.org --- Comment #14 from Chris McKenna cmcke...@sucs.org --- A user at en.wp comments that if this bug remains unfixed that cleaning up the live wiki using AWB will take about maybe an hour of experienced editor time to manage this, every day forever, because WMF is unwilling to accept feedback on how the software is actually used. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com changed: What|Removed |Added Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW CC||jay...@gmail.com Ever confirmed|0 |1 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 Helder mybugs.m...@gmail.com changed: What|Removed |Added CC||mybugs.m...@gmail.com --- Comment #4 from Helder mybugs.m...@gmail.com --- Maybe this is something that should be tested with global filters[1] now that they are available? [1] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2013-July/070253.html -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 James Forrester jforres...@wikimedia.org changed: What|Removed |Added See Also||https://bugzilla.wikimedia. ||org/show_bug.cgi?id=49820 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 Richard Morris r...@singsurf.org changed: What|Removed |Added CC||r...@singsurf.org --- Comment #3 from Richard Morris r...@singsurf.org --- There is now an edit filter to detect insertion of nowiki's http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AbuseLogoffset=limit=500wpSearchFilter=550 -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 Guillaume Paumier gpaum...@wikimedia.org changed: What|Removed |Added CC||gpaum...@wikimedia.org --- Comment #2 from Guillaume Paumier gpaum...@wikimedia.org --- FYI, in the meantime, I've requested an edit filter to be added to identify nowiki tags in the main namespace on the English Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Edit_filter/Requestedoldid=562811538#nowiki_in_main_namespace There's now also one on the French Wikipedia. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
[Bug 50527] Tagging articles using old markup on VE
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50527 Kevin Norris nykevin.nor...@gmail.com changed: What|Removed |Added CC||nykevin.nor...@gmail.com --- Comment #1 from Kevin Norris nykevin.nor...@gmail.com --- Here's an example of an edit which we'd like to be tagged in the future: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Richard_Rich,_1st_Baron_Richdiff=562587470oldid=562435942 In this case, the user didn't even realize they were using the VisualEditor and came to the help desk, confused: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk#Problems_editing_with_beta_versions.3F -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Wikibugs-l mailing list Wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikibugs-l
