[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Addshore]

Addshore added a comment.


  So, although not particularly clear on the 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikibase/DataModel/JSON page, this is the JSON 
data model definition for items and properties.
  And the stable interface policy on wikidata only currently applies to 
wikidata.
  
  > provided by Wikibase as deployed on www.wikidata.org.
  
  So the SIP doesn't apply to commons at all right now. This is something that 
we need to discuss with the #structureddataoncommons 
 team once the 
main initial development stages are all complete.
  
  - Maybe the "labels" represented in JSON will be changed to "captions"?
  - "descriptions" will also probably be removed from the JSON
  
  Anyway, the docs and links etc from the SIP and for the JSON data model docs 
probably need a bit of work to include things like Lexemes for the link to 
stable JSON representations on wikidata.org rather than only showing the item / 
property JSON definition on Wikibase/DataModel/JSON.
  
  In light of all of this we need to:
  
  - Discuss with the SDOC team the stability interface policy, and if they want 
one yet, and where this should be, and what it should include for mediainfo vs 
the rest of wikidata at this stage.
  - Improve the "wikibase json datamodel" docs to make it clear what docs are 
for what entities etc, and which json data models are currently covered by the 
SIP.
  - Decide what to do regarding claims vs statements for both wikidata entities 
and also within media info
  
  Regrading that last point, in the long run, we want to stop talking about 
"claims" everywhere, as the statements vs claims legacy only leads to more 
confusion.
  In the long run, probably once we have a new iteration on our API, we will 
likely change this JSON serialization, but none of this is happening yet.
  The reason that we even see claims anywhere is explained in T149410#5281355 

  If we want to move towards "statements" in our JSON output, it is highly 
unlikely that we are going to change mediainfo to now have a "claims" key when 
in a year or so it will then be moved again back to "statements".
  
  I feel like I have rambled on enough for now but perfectly happy to keep 
discussing this, but I believe in terms of the serialization on wikidata.org 
and on commons.org and the claims vs statements keys, nothing is going to be 
changing in either place any time soon.

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To: Addshore
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Multichill, Magnus, Addshore, matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Multichill]

Multichill added a comment.


  In T149410#5285579 , 
@Magnus wrote:
  
  > In T149410#5284363 , 
@Jdforrester-WMF wrote:
  >
  > > In T149410#5284327 , 
@Multichill wrote:
  > >
  > > > Changed back the topic. This is a huge scope change and derailing 
things. As far as I see everywhere in the api we use "claims", not "statements" 
(also in the functions). The only inconsistency right now is mediainfo, that 
should be fixed. If you want to change the everything in the Wikibase API to 
use statements instead of claims (wbgetclaims -> wbgetstatements, etc.), file a 
new task so I can down vote that one as a huge waste of resources.
  > >
  > >
  > > OK, then I can just Decline this task? As established above, when 
Wikimedia DE wrote WBMI in early 2016 they used "statements" because all new 
code should use that and not "claims", but haven't gone back to fix Wikidata to 
use the modern language.
  >
  >
  > "Established"? Where? When? Point me to the official announcement please! 
The one that gives everyone time to prepare, before it's released on, say, 
Commons. That one. Until then, this remains open.
  
  
  So the data model is described at 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikibase/DataModel/JSON . Notice the usage of 
"claims" instead of "statements" . This is considered a stable data format, see 
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Stable_Interface_Policy#Stable_Data_Formats
 . The different api functions of claims are subject to 
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Stable_Interface_Policy#Stable_Public_APIs
 . Shall I continue? You want to break all these stable policies just because 
it looks better?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Ramsey-WMF]

Ramsey-WMF added a comment.


  The SDC team will follow the recommendations/decisions of the original 
authors (WMDE).
  
  We do believe, as Addshore mentioned above, that there's a strong possibility 
that the Commons model will end up not using references in the way that 
Wikidata does. We'll defer to WMDE for how that should be reflected in the 
serialization code.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Jdforrester-WMF]

Jdforrester-WMF added a comment.


  In T149410#5285579 , 
@Magnus wrote:
  
  > In T149410#5284363 , 
@Jdforrester-WMF wrote:
  >
  > > As established above, when Wikimedia DE wrote WBMI in early 2016 they 
used "statements" because all new code should use that and not "claims", but 
haven't gone back to fix Wikidata to use the modern language.
  >
  >
  > "Established"? Where? When? Point me to the official announcement please! 
The one that gives everyone time to prepare, before it's released on, say, 
Commons. That one.
  
  
  I have no idea when exactly the Wikidata made this decision, or whether or 
how it was communicated "explicitly", but for outside observers like me it's 
been obvious for years – for example, the Cirrus search modifier is 
"haswbstatement" not "haswbclaim".
  
  > Until then, this remains open.
  
  That's not how Phabricator works.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Esc3300]

Esc3300 added a comment.


  To avoid that people confuse claims and statements in general, maybe the 
feature should use an entirely different name.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Magnus]

Magnus added a comment.


  In T149410#5284363 , 
@Jdforrester-WMF wrote:
  
  > In T149410#5284327 , 
@Multichill wrote:
  >
  > > Changed back the topic. This is a huge scope change and derailing things. 
As far as I see everywhere in the api we use "claims", not "statements" (also 
in the functions). The only inconsistency right now is mediainfo, that should 
be fixed. If you want to change the everything in the Wikibase API to use 
statements instead of claims (wbgetclaims -> wbgetstatements, etc.), file a new 
task so I can down vote that one as a huge waste of resources.
  >
  >
  > OK, then I can just Decline this task? As established above, when Wikimedia 
DE wrote WBMI in early 2016 they used "statements" because all new code should 
use that and not "claims", but haven't gone back to fix Wikidata to use the 
modern language.
  
  
  "Established"? Where? When? Point me to the official announcement please! The 
one that gives everyone time to prepare, before it's released on, say, Commons. 
That one. Until then, this remains open.

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Multichill, Magnus, Addshore, matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Jdforrester-WMF]

Jdforrester-WMF added a comment.


  In T149410#5284327 , 
@Multichill wrote:
  
  > Changed back the topic. This is a huge scope change and derailing things. 
As far as I see everywhere in the api we use "claims", not "statements" (also 
in the functions). The only inconsistency right now is mediainfo, that should 
be fixed. If you want to change the everything in the Wikibase API to use 
statements instead of claims (wbgetclaims -> wbgetstatements, etc.), file a new 
task so I can down vote that one as a huge waste of resources.
  
  
  OK, then I can just Decline this task? As established above, when Wikimedia 
DE wrote WBMI in early 2016 they used "statements" because all new code should 
use "claims", but haven't gone back to fix Wikidata to use the modern language.

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Multichill, Magnus, Addshore, matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Multichill]

Multichill added a comment.


  Changed back the topic. This is a huge scope change and derailing things. As 
far as I see everywhere in the api we use "claims", not "statements" (also in 
the functions). The only inconsistency right now is mediainfo, that should be 
fixed. If you want to change the everything in the Wikibase API to use 
statements instead of claims (wbgetclaims -> wbgetstatements, etc.), file a new 
task so I can down vote that one as a huge waste of resources.

TASK DETAIL
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To: Multichill
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Multichill, Magnus, Addshore, matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Addshore]

Addshore added a comment.


  This is partly a question for the SDOC team, and if SDOC will ever have 
references as part of their data model.
  Then there is also the question for wikidata and wikibase, which is, why are 
we using "claims" in the serialization?
  
  The answer to the latter is for legacy reasons, and to avoid breaking peoples 
tools, if we could rename our api modules to talk about statements instead of 
claims, and easily change the serialization without annoying people we would, 
and we will at some point.
  Why are we currently putting statements under a claims key? that makes no 
sense?
  
  And thus, if we want to make this change in wikibase / on wikidata with items 
and properties, then why change sdoc to use claims, when a little way down the 
road we will want to then change it back to statements to be consistent with 
wikidata and wikibase once again?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Multichill]

Multichill added a comment.


  In T149410#5275912 , 
@Addshore wrote:
  
  > > Drastically? We're talking Commons here. Before I ran a bot only 50.000 
files even had claims. Nothing has references and qualifiers are only 
introduced this week. Everything is still tiny compared to Wikidata
  >
  > I'm talking about changing this from "claims" to "statements" on wikidata.
  >  That would be the right thing to do, as they are statements, not claims.
  
  
  No no no, that's not what this task is about. The scope of this task is only 
mediainfo on Commons and undoing the mistake of introducing statements instead 
of claims. Please focus on the issue at hand.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Addshore]

Addshore added a comment.


  > Drastically? We're talking Commons here. Before I ran a bot only 50.000 
files even had claims. Nothing has references and qualifiers are only 
introduced this week. Everything is still tiny compared to Wikidata
  
  I'm talking about changing this from "claims" to "statements" on wikidata.
  That would be the right thing to do, as they are statements, not claims.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Multichill]

Multichill added a comment.


  In T149410#5275900 , 
@Addshore wrote:
  
  > In T149410#5275599 , 
@Multichill wrote:
  >
  > > Can't we do a smart trick with showing it twice (claims and statements) 
in the front and storing it only once in the back? A big bang is much more 
complicated and riskier.
  >
  >
  > We could do, but this would drastically increase the sizes of responses.
  
  
  Drastically? We're talking Commons here. Before I ran a bot only 50.000 files 
even had claims. Nothing has references and qualifiers are only introduced this 
week. Everything is still tiny compared to Wikidata
  
  > We could use a method similar to some mediawiki core api versions and 
introduce a new temporary param, for example statementsnotclaims=1.
  >  When 1 send statements, when not set send claims, then we can slowly 
monitor adoption of the new format and send out warnings with the old format, 
trying to chase down any user agents that still use the old one before actually 
fully switching over?
  
  Commons! Not, Wikidata. What adoption? I think we currently have:
  
  - The stuff the SDOC wrote (front end, uploadwizard, etc.). That's easy to 
track and fix
  - Some stuff I wrote in which I don't have claims/statements yet
  - Some stuff Magnus wrote and he already updated his code
  - Anything else? I doubt it.
  
  So why bother to make this more complicated than needed? Or am I missing 
something here?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.


  Jep absolutely.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Magnus]

Magnus added a comment.


  FWIW, I have already changed my code to work with either `claims` or 
`statements`. Quick thoughts:
  
  - IMHO this change is too significant to do it "just because it's a nicer 
word". No one really cares what it's called, as long as you call it the same 
thing every time.
  - A big problem with this change that it was not announced anywhere I did 
see, and I'm pretty much subscribed to everything public. Give us poor 
volunteer devs some warning, at least
  - Also, it's inconsistent. Wikidata items and properties have `claims`, 
mediainfo items have `statements`. Is this going to change on Wikidata as well? 
Wikibase in general?
  - Other things have changes in the Commons/mediainfo implementation. 
`datatype` is missing, for one (tracked by some other issue here). Will it come 
back? Will it stay missing but only for `mediainfo`?
  
  The problem is not that things are different, they are different needlessly 
(AFAICT), and unannounced.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.


  In T149410#5275156 , 
@Addshore wrote:
  
  > > Magnus ran into this and this is very confusing and inconsistent. The 
longer we wait with fixing this, the more effort it will cost.
  >
  > Totally agree there, we have already put this off for years.
  >  It's a pretty breaking change though.
  >  But with the correct announcement and time that would all be fine, and 
even if people miss it, fixing their code should be trivial.
  >
  > Thoughts @Lydia_Pintscher ?
  
  
  From my side absolutely. I'm not sure why this is different in the first 
place.

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To: Lydia_Pintscher
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Addshore, matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, Lydia_Pintscher, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Multichill]

Multichill added a comment.


  Can't we do a smart trick with showing it twice (claims and statements) in 
the front and storing it only once in the back? A big bang is much more 
complicated and riskier. You would have a timeline like:
  
  - Switch api read and write functions to expose both claims and statements
  - Clients can start switching to "claims"
  - Switch the backend to read it as both statements and claims, but store it 
as "claims"
  - Do a null edit run to get rid of the "statements" and replace it with 
"claims"
  - Switch backend code to only use "claims"
  - Check if no code is using statements anymore in the api
  - Switch front end to only use "claims"

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Addshore, matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, Lydia_Pintscher, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Addshore]

Addshore added a comment.


  > Magnus ran into this and this is very confusing and inconsistent. The 
longer we wait with fixing this, the more effort it will cost.
  
  Totally agree there, we have already put this off for years.
  It's a pretty breaking change though.
  But with the correct announcement and time that would all be fine, and even 
if people miss it, fixing their code should be trivial.
  
  Thoughts @Lydia_Pintscher ?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Multichill]

Multichill added a comment.


  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikidata_statement.svg might be 
useful for the relation between a claim and a statement.

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Multichill]

Multichill added a comment.


  Magnus ran into this and this is very confusing and inconsistent. The longer 
we wait with fixing this, the more effort it will cost. Example 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=wbgetentities=M27401711 uses 
"statements" as the key, but we expect "claims" as the key, like 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=wbgetentities=Q422341 . This 
is also consistent with the api calls like 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=help=wbcreateclaim , 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=wbgetclaims=M27401711 , 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=help=wbremoveclaims and 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=help=wbsetclaim
  
  By the way, I noticed another difference: The imageinfo output doesn't 
contain the line "datatype": "wikibase-item". Not sure if this is related or 
not?

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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T149410: For consistency MediaInfo serialization should use "claims" as key, rather than "statements"

[Addshore]

Addshore added a comment.
This is in MediaInfoSerializer::getSerialized

		$serialization['statements'] = $this->statementListSerializer->serialize(
			$mediaInfo->getStatements()
		);

This is already now going to cause an issue as we now have entities in the commons DB including serialization with a "statements" key, so we will have to have a compat layer.TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T149410EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: AddshoreCc: Addshore, matthiasmullie, Aklapper, Ladsgroup, aude, Lydia_Pintscher, thiemowmde, daniel, hoo, Nandana, JKSTNK, Lahi, Gq86, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, LawExplorer, _jensen, D3r1ck01, Wikidata-bugs, Ricordisamoa, Jdforrester-WMF, Mbch331___
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