[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T69659: TemplateData: TemplateData should have a parameter to support Wikidata

[Amire80]

Amire80 added a comment.


  In T69659#6099209 , 
@kaldari wrote:
  
  > If we go down this road, we're going to be muddying Wikipedia's 
more-or-less clearly defined infobox parameters with awkward, inconsistent data 
(or data suggestions) that may not fit a particular language's understanding of 
a concept or ontology. `P21` and `P571` are the most likely to cause obvious 
problems, but I feel like it's only the tip of the iceberg, and we need to 
consider this carefully before we open up pandora's box.
  
  Of course there are issues with Wikidata, but this bug doesn't suggest 
forcing the usage of Wikidata in all the parameters of all the infoboxes in 
Wikipedia in all languages. It only suggests adding an option to support 
Wikidata in TemplateData, and people will use it wherever everyone agrees that 
it's useful. There are lots of places where it is, and some muddy areas are not 
a reason not to use it anywhere.

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To: Amire80
Cc: kaldari, Naseweis520, Capankajsmilyo, gerritbot, Samwilson, Mgns, He7d3r, 
geraki, Amire80, hoo, putnik, Mvolz, Lydia_Pintscher, RexxS, TheDJ, Mike_Peel, 
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Jdforrester-WMF, Elitre, iecetcwcpggwqpgciazwvzpfjpwomjxn, TrevorParscal, 
Ricordisamoa, Keegan, Liuxinyu970226, Ltrlg, Blissjay007, Oblanco79, 
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Daryl-TTMG, RomaAmorRoma, E.S.A-Sheild, darthmon_wmde, Saimongoltinio, 
WikimeSteve, Kent7301, ppelberg, Meekrab2012, joker88john, CucyNoiD, Nandana, 
NebulousIris, marcella, Gaboe420, Revansx, OhKayeSierra, Versusxo, 
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T69659: TemplateData: TemplateData should have a parameter to support Wikidata

[RexxS]

RexxS added a comment.


  The reason why The South Pole Telescope has the location "South Pole, 
Antarctic Treaty area" is that according to Wikidata, the South Pole is not 
located in Antarctica; it's only located in the administrative territorial 
entity of the  Antarctic Treaty area. That's just a simple mistake in the 
organisation of Wikidata, and nothing to do with fetching Wikidata for 
infoboxes. As it stands, no SPARQL query for what's located in Antarctica will 
give you the South Pole, which is a bit worrying.

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To: RexxS
Cc: kaldari, Naseweis520, Capankajsmilyo, gerritbot, Samwilson, Mgns, He7d3r, 
geraki, Amire80, hoo, putnik, Mvolz, Lydia_Pintscher, RexxS, TheDJ, Mike_Peel, 
Trizek-WMF, Edgars2007, -jem-, IKhitron, eranroz, Aklapper, Multichill, 
Jdforrester-WMF, Elitre, iecetcwcpggwqpgciazwvzpfjpwomjxn, TrevorParscal, 
Ricordisamoa, Keegan, Liuxinyu970226, Ltrlg, Blissjay007, Oblanco79, 
Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Emcmalva, keithbrianpadilla, Hook696, 
Daryl-TTMG, RomaAmorRoma, E.S.A-Sheild, darthmon_wmde, Saimongoltinio, 
WikimeSteve, Kent7301, ppelberg, Meekrab2012, joker88john, CucyNoiD, Nandana, 
NebulousIris, marcella, Gaboe420, Revansx, OhKayeSierra, Versusxo, 
Majesticalreaper22, Giuliamocci, Adrian1985, Cpaulf30, takidelfin, Lahi, Gq86, 
Af420, Necroarcano, Darkminds3113, Bsandipan, Lordiis, Robinma, 
GoranSMilovanovic, Adik2382, Th3d3v1ls, Rafisamra2016, Ramalepe, Liugev6, 
QZanden, Tal-WMIL, merbst, LawExplorer, WSH1906, Avner, Lewizho99, Maathavan, 
Wess, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Tzafrir, Scott_WUaS, Srdjan_m, Jrf, 
Husun1297, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Swainr, Matanya, Mbch331, Jay8g
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T69659: TemplateData: TemplateData should have a parameter to support Wikidata

[kaldari]

kaldari added a comment.


  Putnik's problem is common, but should be relatively easy to deal with (per 
Mvolz). Where we really run into problems is with the reverse situation: where 
Wikidata properties conflate multiple concepts that may be handled distinctly 
in Wikipedia infobox parameters. Many Wikidata property are vague or 
inconsistently used due to Wikidata's fuzzy, must-fit-all-languages ontology.
  
  Examples of properties that explicitly conflate distinct concepts:
  
  - `P21`: sex or gender (which is also clumsily used to handle transgender 
status, i.e. "transgender male")
  - `P61`: discoverer or inventor
  - `P629`: edition or translation of
  
  Examples of properties that are implicitly vague:
  
  - `P131`: located in the administrative territorial entity (notice how the 
South Pole Telescope  is 
located at "South Pole, Antarctic Treaty area" rather than "South Pole, 
Antarctica" as it would be if we weren't using Wikidata)
  - `P171`: parent taxon (which can in practice correspond to any taxon level: 
genus, tribe, family, etc.)
  - `P527`: has part
  - `P642`: of
  - `P828`: has cause
  
  If we go down this road, we're going to be muddying Wikipedia's more-or-less 
clearly defined infobox parameters with awkward, inconsistent data (or data 
suggestions) that may not fit a particular language's understanding of a 
concept or ontology. `P21` is the most likely to cause obvious problems, but I 
feel like it's only the tip of the iceberg, and we need to consider this 
carefully before we open up pandora's box.

TASK DETAIL
  https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T69659

EMAIL PREFERENCES
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To: kaldari
Cc: kaldari, Naseweis520, Capankajsmilyo, gerritbot, Samwilson, Mgns, He7d3r, 
geraki, Amire80, hoo, putnik, Mvolz, Lydia_Pintscher, RexxS, TheDJ, Mike_Peel, 
Trizek-WMF, Edgars2007, -jem-, IKhitron, eranroz, Aklapper, Multichill, 
Jdforrester-WMF, Elitre, iecetcwcpggwqpgciazwvzpfjpwomjxn, TrevorParscal, 
Ricordisamoa, Keegan, Liuxinyu970226, Ltrlg, Blissjay007, Oblanco79, 
Alter-paule, Beast1978, Un1tY, Emcmalva, keithbrianpadilla, Hook696, 
Daryl-TTMG, RomaAmorRoma, E.S.A-Sheild, darthmon_wmde, Saimongoltinio, 
WikimeSteve, Kent7301, ppelberg, Meekrab2012, joker88john, CucyNoiD, Nandana, 
NebulousIris, marcella, Gaboe420, Revansx, OhKayeSierra, Versusxo, 
Majesticalreaper22, Giuliamocci, Adrian1985, Cpaulf30, takidelfin, Lahi, Gq86, 
Af420, Necroarcano, Darkminds3113, Bsandipan, Lordiis, Robinma, 
GoranSMilovanovic, Adik2382, Th3d3v1ls, Rafisamra2016, Ramalepe, Liugev6, 
QZanden, Tal-WMIL, merbst, LawExplorer, WSH1906, Avner, Lewizho99, Maathavan, 
Wess, Dvorapa, _jensen, rosalieper, Tzafrir, Scott_WUaS, Srdjan_m, Jrf, 
Husun1297, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Swainr, Matanya, Mbch331, Jay8g
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T69659: TemplateData: TemplateData should have a parameter to support Wikidata

[gerritbot]

gerritbot added a comment.
Change 446978 had a related patch set uploaded (by Eranroz; owner: Eranroz):
[mediawiki/extensions/TemplateWizard@master] Wikidata support for TemplateWizard

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/446978TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T69659EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: gerritbotCc: gerritbot, Samwilson, Mgns, He7d3r, geraki, Amire80, hoo, putnik, Mvolz, Lydia_Pintscher, RexxS, TheDJ, Mike_Peel, Trizek-WMF, Edgars2007, -jem-, IKhitron, eranroz, Aklapper, Multichill, Jdforrester-WMF, Elitre, Micru, TrevorParscal, Ricordisamoa, Keegan, Liuxinyu970226, Ltrlg, marcella, Lahi, Gq86, Necroarcano, Robinma, GoranSMilovanovic, Rafisamra2016, QZanden, Tal-WMIL, merbst, LawExplorer, Avner, Wess, Dvorapa, Tzafrir, Srdjan_m, Jrf, Husun1297, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Deskana, Swainr, Matanya, Mbch331, Jay8g___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T69659: TemplateData: TemplateData should have a parameter to support Wikidata

[eranroz]

eranroz added a comment.
hewiki is using "wikidata" map extensively: https://he.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=insource%3A%2F"wikidata"%2F=מיוחד:חיפוש="">

This is used by multiple gadgets and user scripts including:


TemplateWizard (a wikitext equivalent for Template Dialog in VE) - Shows as placeholder the formatted values for fields fetched from wikidata.
harvestLabel - using the wikidata map to extract field from template and suggest to use the field as label in wikidata (semi automatic)
TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T69659EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: eranrozCc: Amire80, hoo, putnik, Mvolz, Lydia_Pintscher, RexxS, TheDJ, Mike_Peel, Trizek-WMF, Edgars2007, -jem-, IKhitron, eranroz, Aklapper, Multichill, Jdforrester-WMF, Elitre, Micru, TrevorParscal, Ricordisamoa, Keegan, Liuxinyu970226, Ltrlg, Robinma, GoranSMilovanovic, QZanden, merbst, Wess, Izno, Jrf, Husun1297, Wikidata-bugs, aude, Swainr, Mbch331, Jay8g___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T69659: TemplateData: TemplateData should have a parameter to support Wikidata

[putnik]

putnik added a comment.

In T69659#1699301, @eranroz wrote:
I just wrote an example for it on mediawiki: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikibase/Maps_TemplateData


The problems of mapping properties for Wikidata (unlike Citoid) that


we have a lot of similar properties, which names are simplified when they are inserted into infoboxes; it's your example of mapping, little extended:


"maps": {
"wikidata": {
"P17": "Country",
"P27": "Country",
"P41": "Flag",
"P495": "Country",
"P1532": "Country",
}
}




some fields work with a chain of properties, e. g. if there is no P1532, we should use P27 instead.
TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T69659EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: putnikCc: putnik, Mvolz, Lydia_Pintscher, RexxS, TheDJ, Mike_Peel, Trizek-WMF, Edgars2007, -jem-, IKhitron, eranroz, Aklapper, Multichill, Jdforrester-WMF, Elitre, Micru, TrevorParscal, Ricordisamoa, Keegan, Liuxinyu970226, Ltrlg, merbst, AlexMonk-WMF, Wess, D3r1ck01, Izno, Jrf, Husun1297, Wikidata-bugs, Etonkovidova, aude, Swainr, Mbch331, Jay8g___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T69659: TemplateData: TemplateData should have a parameter to support Wikidata

[Lydia_Pintscher]

Lydia_Pintscher added a comment.
Please also check out https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Facilitating_the_use_of_Wikidata_in_Wikimedia_projects_with_a_user-centered_design_approach.pdfTASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T69659EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Lydia_PintscherCc: Lydia_Pintscher, RexxS, TheDJ, Mike_Peel, Trizek-WMF, Edgars2007, -jem-, IKhitron, eranroz, Aklapper, Multichill, Jdforrester-WMF, Elitre, Micru, TrevorParscal, Ricordisamoa, Keegan, Liuxinyu970226, Ltrlg, AlexMonk-WMF, Wess, D3r1ck01, Izno, Jrf, Husun1297, Wikidata-bugs, Etonkovidova, aude, Swainr, Mbch331, Jay8g___
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T69659: TemplateData: TemplateData should have a parameter to support Wikidata

[Trizek-WMF]

Trizek-WMF added a comment.I have a similar request here: some people want to have a way to know if a piece of data from Wikidata will be automatically translucide when they edit a template (especially infoboxes).TASK DETAILhttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T69659EMAIL PREFERENCEShttps://phabricator.wikimedia.org/settings/panel/emailpreferences/To: Trizek-WMFCc: Trizek-WMF, Edgars2007,
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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T69659: TemplateData: TemplateData should have a parameter to support Wikidata

[eranroz]

eranroz added a comment.

Here is a proof of concept how to map wikidata properties to parameters and why 
it is cool:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%9F/Template:Cite_web - 
Similar to English Template:Cite_web templatedata but with maps to wikidata 
(only few properties)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%9F/TemplateDataI18n.js - 
script that use this mapping (only for cite web) to show in VE the translation 
of the parameters in all languages. you can test it with:
  - get to some page on enwiki with ?uselang=de (or some other language which 
isn't en)
  - load the script:

  
mw.loader.load('//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:%D7%A2%D7%A8%D7%9F/TemplateDataI18n.js=raw=text/javascript=21600=86400');

- open VE and add new template of Cite web. Note that the mapped parameters are 
getting translated in the VE template editor.


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To: eranroz
Cc: eranroz, Aklapper, Multichill, Jdforrester-WMF, Elitre, Krinkle, Micru, 
TrevorParscal, Ricordisamoa, Keegan, Liuxinyu970226, Ltrlg, Wikidata-bugs, 
aude, Mbch331



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[Wikidata-bugs] [Maniphest] [Commented On] T69659: TemplateData: TemplateData should have a parameter to support Wikidata

[eranroz]

eranroz added a subscriber: eranroz.
eranroz added a comment.

TemplateData is a general purpose  metadata definition for templates  and isn't 
aware to other extensions (Wikibase, VE, Citeoid etc)  - so it is invalid to 
create special definitions for wikidata. 
But what we can do is to agree on a convention for maps for wikidata, similar 
to Citoid:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Citoid/Maps_TemplateData

Once we have such maps we can use them to build tools that integrate wikidata 
in Wikipedia (or in general - on the client side) more easily such as:

- Client side editing of Wikidata /  Templdate editor in VE
  - indicate a parameter is already in wikidata and doesn't need to be filled
  - a parameter is missing in wikidata and can be exported to wikidata from 
Wikipedia.
- tools for consistency checking across different wikipedias

I just wrote an example for it on mediawiki: 
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikibase/Maps_TemplateData

This is nothing to do with pulling information from wikidata - TemplateData is 
just a metadata description, while pulling of the data is the business  logic 
and can have various implementations ({{#property}}, Scribuntu, template editor 
of VE etc)


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To: eranroz
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TrevorParscal, Ricordisamoa, Keegan, Liuxinyu970226, Ltrlg, Wikidata-bugs, aude



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