Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Derric Atzrott]

> Yes I do. I did explain why. As far as I am concerned
> abot should remove all redirects.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread is understanding
anyone else.  I'm frustrated at this point.

We still don't seem to understand where the harm in
having them comes from, and you still don't seem to
understand where the benefit in having them comes
from.  I wonder if this entire argument is one
huge misunderstanding.

Thank you,
Derric Atzrott


___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Yes I do. I did explain why. As far as I am concerned abot should remove
all redirects.
Tjanks,
 GerardM
Op 20 okt. 2014 13:22 schreef "James Heald" :

> Well actually, we *do* support redirects.  One just has to be a bit crafty
> in how one creates them.
>
> Do you have a problem with that?
>
> If so, what is your problem?
>
>   -- James.
>
>
> On 20/10/2014 11:45, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> We do not support redirects. We do not support paragraphs.Wikidata is not
>> designed to support either.
>> Thanks,
>>   GerardM
>>
>> On 20 October 2014 10:39, rupert THURNER 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Gerard how do you, within wikidata, properly handle the case where an
>>> article is there on enwp, and a paragraph and a redirect to it is there
>>> on
>>> dewp?
>>>
>>> Rupert
>>>   On Oct 18, 2014 1:21 PM, "Gerard Meijssen" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hoi,
 As you correctly quote, "one of the requirements is an article".  So
 what
 is your point ?
 Thanks,
   GerardM

 On 18 October 2014 12:52, John Lewis  wrote:

  On Saturday, 18 October 2014, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>  One of the requirements is an article.
>>
>>
> One of three requirements. Only one has to be true for an item to be
> notable. Please could you stop taking this out of context making it
> look
> like Wikidata requires articles for items.
>
> John Lewis
>
>
> --
> John Lewis
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
>
 ___
 Wikidata-l mailing list
 Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
 https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l


  ___
>>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[James Heald]

Well actually, we *do* support redirects.  One just has to be a bit 
crafty in how one creates them.


Do you have a problem with that?

If so, what is your problem?

  -- James.


On 20/10/2014 11:45, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

Hoi,
We do not support redirects. We do not support paragraphs.Wikidata is not
designed to support either.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 20 October 2014 10:39, rupert THURNER  wrote:


Gerard how do you, within wikidata, properly handle the case where an
article is there on enwp, and a paragraph and a redirect to it is there on
dewp?

Rupert
  On Oct 18, 2014 1:21 PM, "Gerard Meijssen" 
wrote:


Hoi,
As you correctly quote, "one of the requirements is an article".  So what
is your point ?
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 18 October 2014 12:52, John Lewis  wrote:


On Saturday, 18 October 2014, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:


One of the requirements is an article.



One of three requirements. Only one has to be true for an item to be
notable. Please could you stop taking this out of context making it look
like Wikidata requires articles for items.

John Lewis


--
John Lewis

___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l




___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l



___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l






___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l




___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
We do not support redirects. We do not support paragraphs.Wikidata is not
designed to support either.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 20 October 2014 10:39, rupert THURNER  wrote:

> Gerard how do you, within wikidata, properly handle the case where an
> article is there on enwp, and a paragraph and a redirect to it is there on
> dewp?
>
> Rupert
>  On Oct 18, 2014 1:21 PM, "Gerard Meijssen" 
> wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> As you correctly quote, "one of the requirements is an article".  So what
>> is your point ?
>> Thanks,
>>  GerardM
>>
>> On 18 October 2014 12:52, John Lewis  wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, 18 October 2014, Gerard Meijssen 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 One of the requirements is an article.

>>>
>>> One of three requirements. Only one has to be true for an item to be
>>> notable. Please could you stop taking this out of context making it look
>>> like Wikidata requires articles for items.
>>>
>>> John Lewis
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> John Lewis
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[rupert THURNER]

Gerard how do you, within wikidata, properly handle the case where an
article is there on enwp, and a paragraph and a redirect to it is there on
dewp?

Rupert
 On Oct 18, 2014 1:21 PM, "Gerard Meijssen" 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> As you correctly quote, "one of the requirements is an article".  So what
> is your point ?
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On 18 October 2014 12:52, John Lewis  wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, 18 October 2014, Gerard Meijssen 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> One of the requirements is an article.
>>>
>>
>> One of three requirements. Only one has to be true for an item to be
>> notable. Please could you stop taking this out of context making it look
>> like Wikidata requires articles for items.
>>
>> John Lewis
>>
>>
>> --
>> John Lewis
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
As you correctly quote, "one of the requirements is an article".  So what
is your point ?
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 18 October 2014 12:52, John Lewis  wrote:

> On Saturday, 18 October 2014, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
>
>> One of the requirements is an article.
>>
>
> One of three requirements. Only one has to be true for an item to be
> notable. Please could you stop taking this out of context making it look
> like Wikidata requires articles for items.
>
> John Lewis
>
>
> --
> John Lewis
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[John Lewis]

On Saturday, 18 October 2014, Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> One of the requirements is an article.
>

One of three requirements. Only one has to be true for an item to be
notable. Please could you stop taking this out of context making it look
like Wikidata requires articles for items.

John Lewis


-- 
John Lewis
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
The argument that one day an article might be written is not really
relevant in a Wikidata context. Having relevant items in Wikidata is valid
as long as it complies with the notability requirements of Wikidata.

One of the requirements is an article.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 16 October 2014 10:09, Andy Mabbett  wrote:

> On 15 October 2014 13:22, Gerard Meijssen 
> wrote:
>
> > Wikidata is NOT Wikipedia driven so the notion of redirects
>
> Perhaps not, but I have just created Q18289539, about thw BBC's new
> 'Genome' online database:
>
>http://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/
>
> I have also created:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Genome
>
> as a redirect to:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Times#Digitisation
>
> "Radio Times" already has a separate Wikdiata entry.
>
> There is a logical equivalence between Q18289539 and /BBC_Genome, but
> not between Q18289539 and /Radio_Times, nor /Radio_Times#Digitisation
>
> I should like to add a sitelink to /BBC_Genome, to Q18289539, not
> least because one day, somebody might turn that redirect into an
> article; or add categories to it.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Andy Mabbett]

On 15 October 2014 13:22, Gerard Meijssen  wrote:

> Wikidata is NOT Wikipedia driven so the notion of redirects

Perhaps not, but I have just created Q18289539, about thw BBC's new
'Genome' online database:

   http://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/

I have also created:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Genome

as a redirect to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Times#Digitisation

"Radio Times" already has a separate Wikdiata entry.

There is a logical equivalence between Q18289539 and /BBC_Genome, but
not between Q18289539 and /Radio_Times, nor /Radio_Times#Digitisation

I should like to add a sitelink to /BBC_Genome, to Q18289539, not
least because one day, somebody might turn that redirect into an
article; or add categories to it.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
No. Prunus is a genus and as such many species can and do refer to Prunus.
Wikidata is NOT Wikipedia driven so the notion of redirects and paragraphs
does not fit. A paragraph is not reliably identifiable anyway.
Thanks,
 Gerard

On 15 October 2014 07:39, rupert THURNER  wrote:

> French safou should be fruit, because the tree is safoutier. German
> afrikanische Pflaume is fruit as well. This is a 1:1 match. Prunus contains
> tens of fruits which do exist as dedicated articles in enwp. If no link can
> be made to redirects and not to paragraphs this looks like a serious
> conceptual restriction?
>
> Rupert
> On Oct 14, 2014 5:40 PM, "Jane Darnell"  wrote:
>
>> There are multiple issues with linking the German
>> Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" to the French Wikipedia's "safou":
>>
>> 1) A tree can only interwikilink to a tree or combined article on the
>> tree + fruit and a fruit can only interwikilink to a fruit or a combined
>> article on the tree + fruit (this is the "single vs. multiple concepts"
>> problem Gerard refers to)
>> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the
>> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to
>> "Prunus"
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 4:59 PM, rupert THURNER > > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 13, 2014 2:07 PM, "Daniel Kinzler" 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Am 12.10.2014 17:02, schrieb Romaine Wiki:
>>> > > Hello Lydia,
>>> > >
>>> > > This is a different problem from the other issue I described in an
>>> other mail.
>>> > > I notice two different problems that occur with the same version.
>>> One is about
>>> > > the workflow, one is about less experienced/less technical users have
>>> > > difficulties in adding site links.
>>> >
>>> > Linking a newly created article would be done using the "add links"
>>> feature at
>>> > the bottom of the sidebar. That should not have changed at all in the
>>> last
>>> > couple of months, as far as I know.
>>> >
>>> > Can you identify which change exactly is the problem, and why it is
>>> problematic?
>>>
>>> I tried to link "afrikanische Pflaume " to "safou " the fruit and got an
>>> error which was not helpful. I tried to report it here, and nobody used
>>> time to look into it. So my personal user experience degraded from usable
>>> to not usable.
>>>
>>> But I have no idea which change caused the this.
>>>
>>> Rupert
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[rupert THURNER]

French safou should be fruit, because the tree is safoutier. German
afrikanische Pflaume is fruit as well. This is a 1:1 match. Prunus contains
tens of fruits which do exist as dedicated articles in enwp. If no link can
be made to redirects and not to paragraphs this looks like a serious
conceptual restriction?

Rupert
On Oct 14, 2014 5:40 PM, "Jane Darnell"  wrote:

> There are multiple issues with linking the German
> Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" to the French Wikipedia's "safou":
>
> 1) A tree can only interwikilink to a tree or combined article on the tree
> + fruit and a fruit can only interwikilink to a fruit or a combined
> article on the tree + fruit (this is the "single vs. multiple concepts"
> problem Gerard refers to)
> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the
> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to
> "Prunus"
>
> On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 4:59 PM, rupert THURNER 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2014 2:07 PM, "Daniel Kinzler" 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Am 12.10.2014 17:02, schrieb Romaine Wiki:
>> > > Hello Lydia,
>> > >
>> > > This is a different problem from the other issue I described in an
>> other mail.
>> > > I notice two different problems that occur with the same version. One
>> is about
>> > > the workflow, one is about less experienced/less technical users have
>> > > difficulties in adding site links.
>> >
>> > Linking a newly created article would be done using the "add links"
>> feature at
>> > the bottom of the sidebar. That should not have changed at all in the
>> last
>> > couple of months, as far as I know.
>> >
>> > Can you identify which change exactly is the problem, and why it is
>> problematic?
>>
>> I tried to link "afrikanische Pflaume " to "safou " the fruit and got an
>> error which was not helpful. I tried to report it here, and nobody used
>> time to look into it. So my personal user experience degraded from usable
>> to not usable.
>>
>> But I have no idea which change caused the this.
>>
>> Rupert
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Smolenski Nikola]

Citiranje Jane Darnell :
> nope

I am, for example
https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0 has an
interwiki to a redirect. What happens when you try it?

> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola  wrote:
> 
> > Citiranje Jane Darnell :
> > > 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the
> > > German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to
> > > "Prunus"
> >
> > You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect the old
> > way,
> > are you not?



___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Jane Darnell]

nope

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Smolenski Nikola  wrote:

> Citiranje Jane Darnell :
> > 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the
> > German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to
> > "Prunus"
>
> You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect the old
> way,
> are you not?
>
>
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Smolenski Nikola]

Citiranje Jane Darnell :
> 2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the
> German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to
> "Prunus"

You should still be able to make an interwiki link for a redirect the old way,
are you not?



___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Jane Darnell]

There are multiple issues with linking the German Wikipedia's "afrikanische
Pflaume" to the French Wikipedia's "safou":

1) A tree can only interwikilink to a tree or combined article on the tree
+ fruit and a fruit can only interwikilink to a fruit or a combined article
on the tree + fruit (this is the "single vs. multiple concepts" problem
Gerard refers to)
2) There is no way of making an interwikilink for a redirect, and the
German Wikipedia's "afrikanische Pflaume" is currently a redirect to
"Prunus"

On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 4:59 PM, rupert THURNER 
wrote:

>
> On Oct 13, 2014 2:07 PM, "Daniel Kinzler" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Am 12.10.2014 17:02, schrieb Romaine Wiki:
> > > Hello Lydia,
> > >
> > > This is a different problem from the other issue I described in an
> other mail.
> > > I notice two different problems that occur with the same version. One
> is about
> > > the workflow, one is about less experienced/less technical users have
> > > difficulties in adding site links.
> >
> > Linking a newly created article would be done using the "add links"
> feature at
> > the bottom of the sidebar. That should not have changed at all in the
> last
> > couple of months, as far as I know.
> >
> > Can you identify which change exactly is the problem, and why it is
> problematic?
>
> I tried to link "afrikanische Pflaume " to "safou " the fruit and got an
> error which was not helpful. I tried to report it here, and nobody used
> time to look into it. So my personal user experience degraded from usable
> to not usable.
>
> But I have no idea which change caused the this.
>
> Rupert
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[rupert THURNER]

Could you do me a favor please and try to link it out of Wikipedia and then
tell how I should have done it?
On Oct 13, 2014 6:29 PM, "Gerard Meijssen" 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> This issue was mentioned before. There are two distinct concepts as I
> recall. One article can only be linked from one project to only one
> concept.
>
> So in essence you link an item to a Q and not to "safou". There have
> been no changes at all about this from the start of Wikidata.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 13 October 2014 16:59, rupert THURNER  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2014 2:07 PM, "Daniel Kinzler" 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Am 12.10.2014 17:02, schrieb Romaine Wiki:
>> > > Hello Lydia,
>> > >
>> > > This is a different problem from the other issue I described in an
>> other mail.
>> > > I notice two different problems that occur with the same version. One
>> is about
>> > > the workflow, one is about less experienced/less technical users have
>> > > difficulties in adding site links.
>> >
>> > Linking a newly created article would be done using the "add links"
>> feature at
>> > the bottom of the sidebar. That should not have changed at all in the
>> last
>> > couple of months, as far as I know.
>> >
>> > Can you identify which change exactly is the problem, and why it is
>> problematic?
>>
>> I tried to link "afrikanische Pflaume " to "safou " the fruit and got an
>> error which was not helpful. I tried to report it here, and nobody used
>> time to look into it. So my personal user experience degraded from usable
>> to not usable.
>>
>> But I have no idea which change caused the this.
>>
>> Rupert
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
This issue was mentioned before. There are two distinct concepts as I
recall. One article can only be linked from one project to only one
concept.

So in essence you link an item to a Q and not to "safou". There have
been no changes at all about this from the start of Wikidata.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 13 October 2014 16:59, rupert THURNER  wrote:

>
> On Oct 13, 2014 2:07 PM, "Daniel Kinzler" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Am 12.10.2014 17:02, schrieb Romaine Wiki:
> > > Hello Lydia,
> > >
> > > This is a different problem from the other issue I described in an
> other mail.
> > > I notice two different problems that occur with the same version. One
> is about
> > > the workflow, one is about less experienced/less technical users have
> > > difficulties in adding site links.
> >
> > Linking a newly created article would be done using the "add links"
> feature at
> > the bottom of the sidebar. That should not have changed at all in the
> last
> > couple of months, as far as I know.
> >
> > Can you identify which change exactly is the problem, and why it is
> problematic?
>
> I tried to link "afrikanische Pflaume " to "safou " the fruit and got an
> error which was not helpful. I tried to report it here, and nobody used
> time to look into it. So my personal user experience degraded from usable
> to not usable.
>
> But I have no idea which change caused the this.
>
> Rupert
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[rupert THURNER]

On Oct 13, 2014 2:07 PM, "Daniel Kinzler" 
wrote:
>
> Am 12.10.2014 17:02, schrieb Romaine Wiki:
> > Hello Lydia,
> >
> > This is a different problem from the other issue I described in an
other mail.
> > I notice two different problems that occur with the same version. One
is about
> > the workflow, one is about less experienced/less technical users have
> > difficulties in adding site links.
>
> Linking a newly created article would be done using the "add links"
feature at
> the bottom of the sidebar. That should not have changed at all in the last
> couple of months, as far as I know.
>
> Can you identify which change exactly is the problem, and why it is
problematic?

I tried to link "afrikanische Pflaume " to "safou " the fruit and got an
error which was not helpful. I tried to report it here, and nobody used
time to look into it. So my personal user experience degraded from usable
to not usable.

But I have no idea which change caused the this.

Rupert
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Luca Martinelli]

Il 13/ott/2014 14:07 "Daniel Kinzler"  ha
scritto:
> Can you identify which change exactly is the problem, and why it is
problematic?

+1

I'm sorry, but I edited today Wikidata after a while, and I didn't noticed
anything *that* problematic to prevented me to edit.

L.
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Daniel Kinzler]

Am 12.10.2014 17:02, schrieb Romaine Wiki:
> Hello Lydia,
> 
> This is a different problem from the other issue I described in an other mail.
> I notice two different problems that occur with the same version. One is about
> the workflow, one is about less experienced/less technical users have
> difficulties in adding site links.

Linking a newly created article would be done using the "add links" feature at
the bottom of the sidebar. That should not have changed at all in the last
couple of months, as far as I know.

Can you identify which change exactly is the problem, and why it is problematic?

-- 
Daniel Kinzler
Senior Software Developer

Wikimedia Deutschland
Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V.

___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Romaine Wiki]

Hello Lydia,

This is a different problem from the other issue I described in an other
mail.
I notice two different problems that occur with the same version. One is
about the workflow, one is about less experienced/less technical users have
difficulties in adding site links.

I am happy hearing you say it is a high priority.

Romaine


2014-10-12 8:39 GMT+02:00 Lydia Pintscher :

> On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 4:01 AM, Romaine Wiki 
> wrote:
> > For more than a year I am asking users to add their articles to Wikidata
> > when they have written it. That seems succesful, they added their
> articles
> > more and more and did understand how to do that. Until recently. Now I
> get
> > more and more complaints from users that they do not understand any more
> how
> > to add a newly written article to an item. They seem to have tried, but
> fail
> > in actual getting it managed. That is a worse development!
>
> Romaine,
>
> How more can I help you? I already told you that I recognize the
> problem and that a fix is high priority. The only thing I did not tell
> you yet is how we are going to fix it exactly. That is because that
> will depend on discussions I can hopefully have tomorrow.
>
>
> Cheers
> Lydia
>
> --
> Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
> Product Manager for Wikidata
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
> Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
> 10963 Berlin
> www.wikimedia.de
>
> Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.
>
> Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
> unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
> Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Susanna you are completely right. Wikidata is there to serve a purpose. It
means that we should work on realising tools that use Wikidata and do a
better job at it. I blogged today about awards and how Wikidata can make a
difference [1]. It takes not much to realise it but I have all but given up
on talking. This is because there is no platform that considers this and
works towards putting Wikidata to use. Not for the sake of Wikidata but for
all our sakes.
Thanks,
  GerardM

[1]
http://ultimategerardm.blogspot.nl/2014/10/wikidata-maintenance-of-awards.html

On 12 October 2014 10:48, Susanna Ånäs  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I would like to do advocacy for taking advantage of Wikidata to
> wikimedians, researchers, the public sector and GLAMs (and others), but I
> lack the tools and methods to do so.
>
> Wikimedians: Very few wikimedians in our country participate in the
> Wikidata community. There is not a local community to plan training with.
> There is reluctance in the Wikipedia community to learn and use Wikidata,
> because it is not mature enough to replace old practices. How can we learn
> together? What benefit should be emphasized?
>
> Researchers and public sector: What should the promise be? Should the
> emphasis be on referring to Wikidata or producing data to it? Are there any
> workflows that could be promoted? How can we support if we cannot master it
> ourselves? Who could train us?
>
> GLAMs: I know this is in the making and baking and it's premature to ask
> for guidelines.
>
> All in all: Help us learn and train others! We are at your disposal for
> that.
>
> Cheers,
> Susanna
>
>
>
> 2014-10-12 11:01 GMT+03:00 Gerard Meijssen :
>
>> Hoi,
>> The complaint that Wikidata serves an in-crowd is something that I feel
>> is correct. It follows from being overly interested in the academic side of
>> things. All the work by the professional developers is for esoteric things
>> and much if not most of the work does not translate into things that
>> benefit the people who are actually involved in Wikidata. To add insult to
>> injury when the argument is made that users will benefit from particular
>> improvements those improvements are denied typically because of secondary
>> use considerations. This is why we do not have automated descriptions for
>> instance. Recently the format of the dump changed but only secondary use of
>> Wikidata benefits. A lot of work was done on query but in 10 months we have
>> not seen any result. When the "featured article" functionality was
>> introduced it was not by WMDE developers, the same is true for the label
>> lister, the order of available labels ...
>>
>> So far official Wikidata development is mainly backroom work. Maybe
>> important, but because of the lack of interest in the user experience and
>> productivity there is no idea and probably no interest and expertise in how
>> to make the regular editors and the noobs happy and productive. It is not
>> as if there is no example how it could be. The tools by Magnus serve
>> EXACTLY the same data to a user. They are intended for use by people and
>> they do generate a lot of contributions. These tools are only hampered by
>> the lack of stability of the labs environment however they do provide a
>> user centred experience.
>>
>> I salute the fact that Wikidata wants to become more user friendly but it
>> starts with understanding what people need and how people work. The agenda
>> for these things could make it easy and obvious for people to move with the
>> flow of change. There may be moments when there is a break with standard
>> practices for technical considerations.That will not happen often when the
>> focus is on the use of Wikidata.
>>
>> I have stopped arguing about Wikidata development and user experience
>> because every time other considerations have the priority. For me many of
>> the features of the Reasonator are must have for Wikidata. The most urgent
>> one is that we ALWAYS see a label in whatever language. I do recognise
>> English, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Polish etc names. Why have
>> numbers when there is no label in Dutch? This one feature alone prevents
>> people from using Wikidata in the the 270+ other languages Wikidata
>> supports.
>> Thanks,
>>   GerardM
>>
>> On 12 October 2014 04:01, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
>>
>>> For more than a year I am asking users to add their articles to Wikidata
>>> when they have written it. That seems succesful, they added their articles
>>> more and more and did understand how to do that. Until recently. Now I get
>>> more and more complaints from users that they do not understand any more
>>> how to add a newly written article to an item. They seem to have tried, but
>>> fail in actual getting it managed. That is a worse development!
>>>
>>> Romaine
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Susanna Ånäs]

Hi!

I would like to do advocacy for taking advantage of Wikidata to
wikimedians, researchers, the public sector and GLAMs (and others), but I
lack the tools and methods to do so.

Wikimedians: Very few wikimedians in our country participate in the
Wikidata community. There is not a local community to plan training with.
There is reluctance in the Wikipedia community to learn and use Wikidata,
because it is not mature enough to replace old practices. How can we learn
together? What benefit should be emphasized?

Researchers and public sector: What should the promise be? Should the
emphasis be on referring to Wikidata or producing data to it? Are there any
workflows that could be promoted? How can we support if we cannot master it
ourselves? Who could train us?

GLAMs: I know this is in the making and baking and it's premature to ask
for guidelines.

All in all: Help us learn and train others! We are at your disposal for
that.

Cheers,
Susanna



2014-10-12 11:01 GMT+03:00 Gerard Meijssen :

> Hoi,
> The complaint that Wikidata serves an in-crowd is something that I feel is
> correct. It follows from being overly interested in the academic side of
> things. All the work by the professional developers is for esoteric things
> and much if not most of the work does not translate into things that
> benefit the people who are actually involved in Wikidata. To add insult to
> injury when the argument is made that users will benefit from particular
> improvements those improvements are denied typically because of secondary
> use considerations. This is why we do not have automated descriptions for
> instance. Recently the format of the dump changed but only secondary use of
> Wikidata benefits. A lot of work was done on query but in 10 months we have
> not seen any result. When the "featured article" functionality was
> introduced it was not by WMDE developers, the same is true for the label
> lister, the order of available labels ...
>
> So far official Wikidata development is mainly backroom work. Maybe
> important, but because of the lack of interest in the user experience and
> productivity there is no idea and probably no interest and expertise in how
> to make the regular editors and the noobs happy and productive. It is not
> as if there is no example how it could be. The tools by Magnus serve
> EXACTLY the same data to a user. They are intended for use by people and
> they do generate a lot of contributions. These tools are only hampered by
> the lack of stability of the labs environment however they do provide a
> user centred experience.
>
> I salute the fact that Wikidata wants to become more user friendly but it
> starts with understanding what people need and how people work. The agenda
> for these things could make it easy and obvious for people to move with the
> flow of change. There may be moments when there is a break with standard
> practices for technical considerations.That will not happen often when the
> focus is on the use of Wikidata.
>
> I have stopped arguing about Wikidata development and user experience
> because every time other considerations have the priority. For me many of
> the features of the Reasonator are must have for Wikidata. The most urgent
> one is that we ALWAYS see a label in whatever language. I do recognise
> English, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Polish etc names. Why have
> numbers when there is no label in Dutch? This one feature alone prevents
> people from using Wikidata in the the 270+ other languages Wikidata
> supports.
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>
> On 12 October 2014 04:01, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
>
>> For more than a year I am asking users to add their articles to Wikidata
>> when they have written it. That seems succesful, they added their articles
>> more and more and did understand how to do that. Until recently. Now I get
>> more and more complaints from users that they do not understand any more
>> how to add a newly written article to an item. They seem to have tried, but
>> fail in actual getting it managed. That is a worse development!
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>


-- 
*Susanna Ånäs *Käyttäjä:Susannaanas
Wikimedia Suomi  – Wikimaps
 – GLAM

@ WMFinland 
 / Facebook  / Liity jäseneksi!

___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
The complaint that Wikidata serves an in-crowd is something that I feel is
correct. It follows from being overly interested in the academic side of
things. All the work by the professional developers is for esoteric things
and much if not most of the work does not translate into things that
benefit the people who are actually involved in Wikidata. To add insult to
injury when the argument is made that users will benefit from particular
improvements those improvements are denied typically because of secondary
use considerations. This is why we do not have automated descriptions for
instance. Recently the format of the dump changed but only secondary use of
Wikidata benefits. A lot of work was done on query but in 10 months we have
not seen any result. When the "featured article" functionality was
introduced it was not by WMDE developers, the same is true for the label
lister, the order of available labels ...

So far official Wikidata development is mainly backroom work. Maybe
important, but because of the lack of interest in the user experience and
productivity there is no idea and probably no interest and expertise in how
to make the regular editors and the noobs happy and productive. It is not
as if there is no example how it could be. The tools by Magnus serve
EXACTLY the same data to a user. They are intended for use by people and
they do generate a lot of contributions. These tools are only hampered by
the lack of stability of the labs environment however they do provide a
user centred experience.

I salute the fact that Wikidata wants to become more user friendly but it
starts with understanding what people need and how people work. The agenda
for these things could make it easy and obvious for people to move with the
flow of change. There may be moments when there is a break with standard
practices for technical considerations.That will not happen often when the
focus is on the use of Wikidata.

I have stopped arguing about Wikidata development and user experience
because every time other considerations have the priority. For me many of
the features of the Reasonator are must have for Wikidata. The most urgent
one is that we ALWAYS see a label in whatever language. I do recognise
English, German, French, Italian, Spanish, Polish etc names. Why have
numbers when there is no label in Dutch? This one feature alone prevents
people from using Wikidata in the the 270+ other languages Wikidata
supports.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 12 October 2014 04:01, Romaine Wiki  wrote:

> For more than a year I am asking users to add their articles to Wikidata
> when they have written it. That seems succesful, they added their articles
> more and more and did understand how to do that. Until recently. Now I get
> more and more complaints from users that they do not understand any more
> how to add a newly written article to an item. They seem to have tried, but
> fail in actual getting it managed. That is a worse development!
>
> Romaine
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Lydia Pintscher]

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 4:01 AM, Romaine Wiki  wrote:
> For more than a year I am asking users to add their articles to Wikidata
> when they have written it. That seems succesful, they added their articles
> more and more and did understand how to do that. Until recently. Now I get
> more and more complaints from users that they do not understand any more how
> to add a newly written article to an item. They seem to have tried, but fail
> in actual getting it managed. That is a worse development!

Romaine,

How more can I help you? I already told you that I recognize the
problem and that a fix is high priority. The only thing I did not tell
you yet is how we are going to fix it exactly. That is because that
will depend on discussions I can hopefully have tomorrow.


Cheers
Lydia

-- 
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
Product Manager for Wikidata

Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24
10963 Berlin
www.wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V.

Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg
unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das
Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985.

___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Romaine Wiki]

The impression I get from experienced users is that they are much annoyed
and use now some work around to get things done, but they do not understand
it.
Less experienced users do not understand it either and also aren't able to
add site links any more. Instead they ask experienced users to add it for
them as they do not manage themselves to do it.

Explaining to less experienced users was never easy, but now I can't let
them understand at all. The current version of the software of Wikidata is
not built for less experienced and less technical users. The current
situation is not logic and not understandable.
In general I am in favour of educating users how it works, but this isn't
explainable as I have seen how inexperienced users already before had great
difficulty working with Wikidata, even while they had a coach next to them.
It is overestimated how easy the Wikidata software is, and underestimated
how much less experienced and less technical users have difficulties with
the software.
For Wikidata we need software that noobs can handle and can work with, so
that everyone can participate in this wiki.

Romaine





2014-10-12 4:18 GMT+02:00 Scott MacLeod 
:

> Romaine, Lydia and Wikidatans,
>
> In what ways can we engage the weekly summary and the newsletter, and
> other approaches, for example, to help educate users about best ways to "add
> a newly written article to an item," or a language, easily, since 
> wikidata/wikibase
> beneficial changes to Wikipedia may well lead to less authorial/editorial
> ease?
>
> Wikipedia's initial wondrous growth into 287 + languages is due
> significantly to ease of crowd-source editing this collaborative wiki
> encyclopedia, as I see it, and this is well worth trying to continue to
> facilitate for many, many reasons. Flourishing users and editors are one of
> the most important communities to nurture, as I see it. How best to help
> users understand wikidata?
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 7:01 PM, Romaine Wiki 
> wrote:
>
>> For more than a year I am asking users to add their articles to Wikidata
>> when they have written it. That seems succesful, they added their articles
>> more and more and did understand how to do that. Until recently. Now I get
>> more and more complaints from users that they do not understand any more
>> how to add a newly written article to an item. They seem to have tried, but
>> fail in actual getting it managed. That is a worse development!
>>
>> Romaine
>>
>> ___
>> Wikidata-l mailing list
>> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> - Scott MacLeod - Founder & President
> - 415 480 4577
> - http://worlduniversityandschool.org
> - World University and School - like Wikipedia with MIT OpenCourseWare
> (not endorsed by MIT OCW) - incorporated as a nonprofit university and
> school in California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational
> organization, both effective April 2010.
>
> World University and School is sending you this because of your interest
> in free, online, higher education. If you don't want to receive these,
> please reply with 'unsubscribe' in the subject line. Thank you.
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l

Re: [Wikidata-l] Users do understand Wikidata less than before

[Scott MacLeod]

Romaine, Lydia and Wikidatans,

In what ways can we engage the weekly summary and the newsletter, and other
approaches, for example, to help educate users about best ways to "add a
newly written article to an item," or a language, easily, since
wikidata/wikibase
beneficial changes to Wikipedia may well lead to less authorial/editorial
ease?

Wikipedia's initial wondrous growth into 287 + languages is due
significantly to ease of crowd-source editing this collaborative wiki
encyclopedia, as I see it, and this is well worth trying to continue to
facilitate for many, many reasons. Flourishing users and editors are one of
the most important communities to nurture, as I see it. How best to help
users understand wikidata?

Scott




On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 7:01 PM, Romaine Wiki 
wrote:

> For more than a year I am asking users to add their articles to Wikidata
> when they have written it. That seems succesful, they added their articles
> more and more and did understand how to do that. Until recently. Now I get
> more and more complaints from users that they do not understand any more
> how to add a newly written article to an item. They seem to have tried, but
> fail in actual getting it managed. That is a worse development!
>
> Romaine
>
> ___
> Wikidata-l mailing list
> Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
>
>


-- 
- Scott MacLeod - Founder & President
- 415 480 4577
- http://worlduniversityandschool.org
- World University and School - like Wikipedia with MIT OpenCourseWare (not
endorsed by MIT OCW) - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in
California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization,
both effective April 2010.

World University and School is sending you this because of your interest in
free, online, higher education. If you don't want to receive these, please
reply with 'unsubscribe' in the subject line. Thank you.
___
Wikidata-l mailing list
Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l