[WikiEN-l] [Wikitech-l] A proposal to de-table Wikipedia infoboxes
Hay wrote: By Hakon Wium Lie of Opera: http://www.princexml.com/howcome/2009/wikipedia/infobox/ What is the likelihood of making as much as possible CSS? How to make infoboxes degrade gracefully for non-CSS browsers and IE users? I don't know if making such an infobox that does not support IE6 and IE7 is a good idea. If you would take out all inline style elements and replace with them classes that are available in a general stylesheet it would already safe a lot of the cruft in the original code. I agree that graceful degradation for IE6/IE7 users is an issue. The purpose of the case study was first and foremost to explore how Wikipedia's markup can be simplified and improved when CSS 2.1 is fully implemented -- like it is in Opera, Firefox, Safari and IE8. I didn't even test in IE6/IE7. I think it's possible -- with some careful crafting -- to make things look ok, but not pixel-perfect in legacy browsers. In lynx, the table-free version looks better than the original one, but IE6/IE7 users outnumber lynx by a some magnitudes. I'll look into tweaking the style sheet to aim for graceful degradation. However, I also think the web should not be hostage to IE6/IE7 forever. Some designers have declared war on IE6 for this reason: http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/02/norwegian-websi.html Cheers, -hkon Håkon Wium Lie CTO °þe®ª howc...@opera.com http://people.opera.com/howcome ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] A proposal to de-table Wikipedia infoboxes
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Håkon Wium Lie howc...@opera.com wrote: Andrew Gray wrote: However, I also think the web should not be hostage to IE6/IE7 forever. Some designers have declared war on IE6 for this reason: http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/02/norwegian-websi.html There has been a debate about this recently at wikitech-l: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2009-February/041587.html And I think I remember that there were proposals earlier to add at least a infobox on wikipedia sites with text like It looks like you are using an Microsoft Internet Explorer. You can get better results when you use a web browser instead, here are some suggestions [link-ff], [link-op], [link-chr] There were many objections to this, including the question how to deal with browsers that pretend to be the MSIE in order to access pages that otherwise wouldn't let them visit the page and the omnipresent neutrality mantra. Mathias ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] History started in 1995
On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Oldak Quill oldakqu...@gmail.com wrote: That gives me an idea. Some users live in rural areas far away from large book repositories, with little capacity to check off-line resources, while other users live in metropolitan centres with dozens of vast libraries a bus ride away. Is there a page on Wikipedia where one user (a rural user, let's presume), can ask for an offline reference to be checked (can you check this page of this book for this statement/fact)? If not, might it be a useful service to offer? I, for example, live in London and have easy access to a number of large university libraries and the British Library (if the resource is especially obscure). It would also be possible to scan in the relevant page of a PD/uncopyrighted book, as proof of the reference, for example. One could host their own fair use version of wikisource. This would be at their own legal peril of course. Make it clear that you're not affiliated with wikipedia, in fact don't even use the word wiki. How about BookTube, is that taken, hmm... Google Books has been incredibly useful for me but it does not take submissions or requests. —C.W. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] [Wikitech-l] A proposal to de-table Wikipedia infoboxes
2009/3/5 Håkon Wium Lie howc...@opera.com: I think it's possible -- with some careful crafting -- to make things look ok, but not pixel-perfect in legacy browsers. In lynx, the table-free version looks better than the original one, but IE6/IE7 users outnumber lynx by a some magnitudes. Mmm. If it looks good in Lynx, it's probably readable by screenreaders. If it can be made to work well enough in IE6/7, and still make simpler and better markup for others, then that'll be a win. One problem is that editors (who write the templates) can write table markup, but can't write CSS. So (a) all CSS would need to be prewritten (b) it'd need to be loaded on all pages in the wiki. This is a constraint in MediaWiki itself. It's annoying that we can't presume HTML5-era browsers. But, of course, we can't. - d. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] [Wikitech-l] A proposal to de-table Wikipedia infoboxes
2009/3/5 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com: One problem is that editors (who write the templates) can write table markup, but can't write CSS. So (a) all CSS would need to be prewritten (b) it'd need to be loaded on all pages in the wiki. This is a constraint in MediaWiki itself. This would basically mean re-writing the parser so that it takes the tablecode and figures out how to translate it into CSS? Hmm. It looks (he said loftily and without any real knowledge) workable enough from the code snippets there, but how well would it handle some of the more complex tables? After all, we'd have to do all-or-nothing for all our tables... -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Automatic death flagging?
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Andrew Gray shimg...@gmail.com wrote: c) [[Category:Living people]] - dead people have the cat removed As far as I know there is no easy way to track category removal. Special:Relatedchanges/Category:Living_people will not show edits which remove the category, and any edits previously visible on this list (prior to category removal) will disappear from it. Matters of propriety may have discouraged this in the past but now that we have the __HIDDENCAT__ feature, we might consider adding dead people directly to [[Category:Dead people]]. —C.W. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] A proposal to de-table Wikipedia infoboxes
Mathias Schindler wrote: On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Håkon Wium Lie wrote: Andrew Gray wrote: However, I also think the web should not be hostage to IE6/IE7 forever. Some designers have declared war on IE6 for this reason: http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/02/norwegian-websi.html There has been a debate about this recently at wikitech-l: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2009-February/041587.html And I think I remember that there were proposals earlier to add at least a infobox on wikipedia sites with text like It looks like you are using an Microsoft Internet Explorer. You can get better results when you use a web browser instead, here are some suggestions [link-ff], [link-op], [link-chr] I would find such a notice insulting, and so would a lot of users with minimal net sophistication. Sure, there's a problem with off-the-shelf computer systems that come with IE prepackaged, but many of those users approach this problem with the phobia that changing browsers will cause a complete system crash. I can understand how the nationalistic and marketing interests of Opera's home country would want to wage war on Internet Explorer, but that doesn't change the fact that some form of IE retains a plurality of users. I'm using Firefox myself (meaning that I would not receive the message), and have no technical arguments in support of IE, but we still need to distinguish between serving Microsoft and serving Microsoft's users. It's not for us to suggest that there is something inferior about someone who uses IE. Ec ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Automatic death flagging?
2009/3/5 Charlotte Webb charlottethew...@gmail.com: On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Andrew Gray shimg...@gmail.com wrote: c) [[Category:Living people]] - dead people have the cat removed As far as I know there is no easy way to track category removal. Special:Relatedchanges/Category:Living_people will not show edits which remove the category, and any edits previously visible on this list (prior to category removal) will disappear from it. A bot could download and save the titles in the category once a day and compare today's to yesterday's and list the ones that have been removed. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Automatic death flagging?
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: A bot could download and save the titles in the category once a day and compare today's to yesterday's and list the ones that have been removed. There's also DynamicPageList[1][2], but I doubt that that would be enabled on a project as big as en.wp. (It's already enabled on a number of smaller projects.) [1]http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DynamicPageList [2]http://semeb.com/dpldemo/DPL:Manual_-_DPL_parameters:_Controlling_output_volume#addfirstcategorydate -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 --- Note: This e-mail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent to this address will probably get lost. ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Automatic death flagging?
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Charlotte Webb charlottethew...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 12:56 PM, Andrew Gray shimg...@gmail.com wrote: c) [[Category:Living people]] - dead people have the cat removed As far as I know there is no easy way to track category removal. Special:Relatedchanges/Category:Living_people will not show edits which remove the category, and any edits previously visible on this list (prior to category removal) will disappear from it. Matters of propriety may have discouraged this in the past but now that we have the __HIDDENCAT__ feature, we might consider adding dead people directly to [[Category:Dead people]]. No way to track category removal, but there is already vaguely the function you are looking for in the API. http://toolserver.org/~samkorn/scripts/recentdeaths.php tracks the latest 50 additions to [[Category:2009 deaths]]. A bot could quite easily go through, say, 50 years worth of categories and collate a list of people added to the category in the last day and post it on-wiki. If it would be helpful, I'll do that tomorrow. Sam -- Sam PGP public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sam_Korn/public_key ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Automatic death flagging?
This subject is one of the reasons that Semantic MediaWiki was designed.
For example, in the article for [[Marilyn Monroe]] there is an infobox
and it contains a template parameter with this code:
deathdate = {{death-date and age|August 5, 1962|June 1, 1926}}
In order to give the article [[Marilyn Monroe]] the semantic property
deathdate you would write the exact same thing as above in the
article. The difference is that in template {{death-date and age}} you
would also write [[Died on::{{{1}}}]] which means [[Died on::August 5,
1962]].
The alternate method is to insert this semantic property inline with
the article text. For example, Marilyn Monroe died on [[Died
on::August 5, 1962]]. This renders as Marilyn Monroe died on August
5, 1962.
The great benefit to this is that you can now ask semantic queries to
output this information. For example, to print out the date that
Marilyn Monroe died, you would write an ask parser function: {{#ask:
[[Marilyn Monroe]] | ?Died on}}. This prints August 5, 1962.
In order to print a list of all actors who recently died in table
format, you might write: {{#ask: [[Category:Actors]] | ?Died on |
sort=ascending }}.
Of course you can also manually maintain a list of recent deaths,
which I think is done.
You can ask these sorts of questions using DBpedia as well:
http://wiki.dbpedia.org/OnlineAccess
On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 5:27 PM, K. Peachey p858sn...@yahoo.com.au wrote:
It's not automatic but if the person's talk page has the WP Biography
banner on it, it has a switch called living which will put them in
one of the following three categories (not word for word naming):
1. Living People
2. Dead People
3. People missing Living statement
That combined with the death categories that different infoboxes put
them into should give you a pretty good coverage.
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