Re: [WikiEN-l] Images that are PD in their country of origin
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 SlimVirgin wrote: On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 17:22, Michael Peel em...@mikepeel.net wrote: However, that is somewhat separate from the question of images that are in the public domain _somewhere_. It is somewhat crazy that US laws dictate what public domain materials you can upload to Wikipedia etc - irrespective of what laws apply in your own country. One possibility that might be worth investigating is something like Wikilivres - which holds books that are out of copyright in Canada (life+50 years) but not in the US. It can do that as its servers are based in Canada. Could we do something similar with Wikimedia Commons? i.e. host multimedia content on a server in a different geographical area, and then have that linked in with Wikipedia in the same way that Commons currently is? Or we could simply make a decision as a project to respect the copyrights and the terms of release of the countries of origin. I'm dealing with an image at the moment of Palestinian women refugees resting after being expelled from their homes as the Israeli army approached in 1948. It's in the public domain in Israel, which now controls the area in which the image was taken. I am 99.9 percent certain it was taken by an employee of the British War Office, which would make it public domain in Britain and the Commonwealth (and as far as the British are concerned that makes it PD everywhere). I sent off for an old first edition of a book I knew it had appeared in in the 1950s in the hope that it would explicitly credit the War Office, but sadly it doesn't. Because of that small doubt, I have to claim fair use. And because I am claiming fair use, someone has said I will have to reduce the quality of the image for it to comply with our fair-use policy. It's insane. I'd like to point out that in fact, these images would be accepted on to Commons, because Commons respects the country of origin rule rather than the PD-US rule that more often applies on the English Wikipedia. - -- Cary Bass Volunteer Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktxlHUACgkQyQg4JSymDYkHYQCcDA2M2qDNHSaGOUvHgjnRqHDe bJUAoMFiO4JBmVlF8IKsy0sk2k5EjWKY =5L81 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Custom Google search engines for finding RSs for subject areas
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Rajat Mukherjee raj...@google.com wrote: Gwern This is not true - we support a lot more than 20 patterns - so I will follow up to have this addressed in the forum if you can provide a specific example where you believe patterns are not being used, we can look to see if there's any issue at our end thanks rajat I've replied on the forum; with any luck, this will turn out to simply be a (disconcerting, gut-wrenching) UI issue. -- gwern ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Images that are PD in their country of origin
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:59, Cary Bass c...@wikimedia.org wrote: I'd like to point out that in fact, these images would be accepted on to Commons, because Commons respects the country of origin rule rather than the PD-US rule that more often applies on the English Wikipedia. Hi Cary, most of the image people I've checked with say that images on the Commons are supposed to be PD in their country of origin *and* in the U.S. Although there are images on the Commons that are PD in their country of origin but *not* in the U.S., they usually carry a tag that places the PD status in doubt and may be proposed for deletion. This means we can't use them on WP. Look at this image for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Refugees_from_Lydda.jpg Palestinian refugees in the British Mandate of Palestine during the exodus from their homes after Israeli troops moved in, July 1948, photographer unknown, believed to be from, or working on behalf of, the British War Office. First publication date not known, but I do know it had been published by 1957. It's PD in Israel, which now governs part of that land. It's PD in Jordan, which governs the other part. 99.9 percent certain it's PD in the UK, which governed the land at the time. But not clearly PD in the U.S. It has therefore been proposed for deletion from the Commons. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Refugees_from_Lydda.jpg To use it on WP, I have to claim fair use, which means I'm expected to deliberately reduce its quality. :) Here is an official British War Office image from the 1940s, definitely taken before 1951. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:King_Abdullah_of_Jordan_and_John_Glubb_Bagot.jpg David Gerard got the British govt to confirm years ago that these are regarded as PD worldwide. But not clearly PD in the U.S. because of the January 1, 1996 rule; therefore we can't upload to Commons (safely) and can't use in featured articles (safely). The above are no means isolated examples. It seems to me that when we find situations like this cropping up again and again, we have evidence of *reductio ad absurdum*, evidence that the image policies are irrational, and way too complex to expect editors to adhere to. All our content and behavioral policies have to watch out for this -- if we find a content policy is trying to force people to do things that everyone agrees are silly, we change the policy. But with the image policies, no matter the tangles we end up in, no matter that we're basically telling every country in the world that they're not allowed to order their own affairs, and no matter that there are no real legal issues in the U.S. with images of this kind anyway, no sensible change in the image policies is permitted. That's what confuses me. Is it just that no one is bothering to sort them out, or is there resistance to it somewhere? Is it Foundation-level, or what is it? Sarah ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Images that are PD in their country of origin
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 SlimVirgin wrote: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:59, Cary Bass c...@wikimedia.org wrote: I'd like to point out that in fact, these images would be accepted on to Commons, because Commons respects the country of origin rule rather than the PD-US rule that more often applies on the English Wikipedia. Hi Cary, most of the image people I've checked with say that images on the Commons are supposed to be PD in their country of origin *and* in the U.S. Although there are images on the Commons that are PD in their country of origin but *not* in the U.S., they usually carry a tag that places the PD status in doubt and may be proposed for deletion. This means we can't use them on WP. Look at this image for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Refugees_from_Lydda.jpg Palestinian refugees in the British Mandate of Palestine during the exodus from their homes after Israeli troops moved in, July 1948, photographer unknown, believed to be from, or working on behalf of, the British War Office. First publication date not known, but I do know it had been published by 1957. It's PD in Israel, which now governs part of that land. It's PD in Jordan, which governs the other part. 99.9 percent certain it's PD in the UK, which governed the land at the time. But not clearly PD in the U.S. It has therefore been proposed for deletion from the Commons. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Refugees_from_Lydda.jpg Yes, of course I didn't make an exception to my comment, regarding whether or not an image was first published in the United States. :-) Foolish me for not pointing out the exceptions; however... this image was published in 1957 without a copyright notice, making it public domain in the US. I've noted that in the deletion discussion on Commons. - -- Cary Bass Volunteer Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktxopIACgkQyQg4JSymDYlJ4gCffZ59KTLjroZd3NyApMDB2rI6 0mYAoJ7u1M08QVUcg15cHgZNI8xFwFbf =RvZF -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Images that are PD in their country of origin
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Cary Bass wrote: SlimVirgin wrote: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:59, Cary Bass c...@wikimedia.org wrote: I'd like to point out that in fact, these images would be accepted on to Commons, because Commons respects the country of origin rule rather than the PD-US rule that more often applies on the English Wikipedia. Hi Cary, most of the image people I've checked with say that images on the Commons are supposed to be PD in their country of origin *and* in the U.S. Although there are images on the Commons that are PD in their country of origin but *not* in the U.S., they usually carry a tag that places the PD status in doubt and may be proposed for deletion. This means we can't use them on WP. Look at this image for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Refugees_from_Lydda.jpg Palestinian refugees in the British Mandate of Palestine during the exodus from their homes after Israeli troops moved in, July 1948, photographer unknown, believed to be from, or working on behalf of, the British War Office. First publication date not known, but I do know it had been published by 1957. It's PD in Israel, which now governs part of that land. It's PD in Jordan, which governs the other part. 99.9 percent certain it's PD in the UK, which governed the land at the time. But not clearly PD in the U.S. It has therefore been proposed for deletion from the Commons. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Refugees_from_Lydda.jpg Yes, of course I didn't make an exception to my comment, regarding whether or not an image was first published in the United States. :-) Foolish me for not pointing out the exceptions; however... this image was published in 1957 without a copyright notice, making it public domain in the US. I've noted that in the deletion discussion on Commons. Or does this fall under that crazy 1996 law... - -- Cary Bass Volunteer Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktxpGEACgkQyQg4JSymDYmq5gCfaWjJ+8UjrILm2Lx4pj0dGYVW MWUAoMaFi+NrEj6R9NVxmMGvvT5u3Bjj =M67r -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Images that are PD in their country of origin
On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 12:07, Cary Bass c...@wikimedia.org wrote: Cary Bass wrote: On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:59, Cary Bass c...@wikimedia.org wrote: I'd like to point out that in fact, these images would be accepted on to Commons, because Commons respects the country of origin rule rather than the PD-US rule that more often applies on the English Wikipedia. Yes, of course I didn't make an exception to my comment, regarding whether or not an image was first published in the United States. :-) Foolish me for not pointing out the exceptions; however... this image was published in 1957 without a copyright notice, making it public domain in the US. I've noted that in the deletion discussion on Commons. Or does this fall under that crazy 1996 law... It might fall under that, yes. It was published in 1957 without a copyright notice, but may have been published before that with one. I don't know. Nor do I know whether that matters. It was regarded as copyrighted in its country of origin in 1996, I believe, if we take that as Israel, because taken in 1948 (plus 50 = 1998); therefore the crazy 1996 law may apply. If the country of origin is Jordan, I think it's 1948 plus 25. Thanks for saying something about it on the delete page anyway. Sarah ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Images that are PD in their country of origin
Yes, lack of good administrators is a big problem, but the policies that they administer would remain the same without regard to the number of administrators. A simpler formulation of the rules could ease the administrators' burdens. Alternatively, the solution is more administrators. When people tolerate copyright violation at featured processes in the name of free culture or not being too doctrinaire, then that sets off a domino effect that worsens the problem everywhere else. If you'd like to help solve that problem by becoming a Commons administrator, please do. I don't see complaints to the press as a big cause for worry. One word: Siegenthaler. I was really referring to deciding the edge cases where the existence of a valid copyright is debatable. People are prone to a lot of convenient errors in that regard. This frequently happens with the European PD-70 rule. An editor locates a photograph of a German ship that was built in 1895, republished without photo credit. The absence of photo credit doesn't mean that the photographer was anonymous and a ship built in 1895 could have been photographed at any time it was operational. So if it was decommissioned in 1919 we can't assume that the photographer died within twenty years afterward...or we shouldn't. But we keep getting editors who use the PD-old template anyway as an exercise in wishful thinking. Too often, the existence of a valid copyright is debatable becomes a euphemism for I've got a lousy source and haven't done enough research. -- http://durova.blogspot.com/ ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
