Re: [WikiEN-l] declining numbers of active EN wiki admins
David Gerard wrote: > On 28 May 2010 23:21, David Goodman wrote: > > >> With new contributors, we can both improve the articles and gain new >> ones. It does not matter how someone gets here: if they care enough to >> create nonsense, they can be persuaded to create sensible material. >> The key hurdle is not persuading people to contribute usefully, but of >> persuading them to contribute at all. >> > > > +1 > > Those who speak of trying to restrict contributions because we haven't > got the admins have it completely arse-backwards. > > Without wanting to re-inforce a message just on its merits, which is certainly something worthy in itself; my preferred phrasing is "bass-ackwards". Yours, in such deep suplication, it hurts my tippy toe shoes. Jussi-Ville Heiskanen ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] declining numbers of active EN wiki admins
David Gerard wrote: > On 28 May 2010 23:21, David Goodman wrote: > > >> With new contributors, we can both improve the articles and gain new >> ones. It does not matter how someone gets here: if they care enough to >> create nonsense, they can be persuaded to create sensible material. >> The key hurdle is not persuading people to contribute usefully, but of >> persuading them to contribute at all. >> > > > +1 > > Those who speak of trying to restrict contributions because we haven't > got the admins have it completely arse-backwards. > > - - 1 Two negatives don't make a positive. Except sometimes. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] declining numbers of EN wiki admins Matt Jacobs
IMHO, etc... The fundamental problem is the difficulty in *removing* SysOp, which *makes* it a big deal. If it really was no big deal, RfA wouldn't need to be such an ordeal; if a user is competent, reasonably experienced and no DRAMA, we should +SysOp them (AGF). If they fuck up, remove it (No big deal). We block our precious new users at the drop of a hat, but an admin has to do something pretty damned horrific to even consider removing their status, and even then it takes months. Imagine if it worked more like blocking - if an admin fucks up, remove their SysOp and have a chat about it. "Hi, I noticed that you speedy-deleted some files that do not appear to meet the CSD criteria; your SysOp staus has been removed _while we discuss it_". No big deal, the admins shouldn't mind. If that were the case, there would be no need for the depth of analysis and horrible trial that is our current RfA. Sadly, AGF is missing from RfA. > Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 15:38:09 -0700 > From: Matt Jacobs > Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] declining numbers of EN wiki admins > To: wikien-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 20:04:43 -0400 >> From: Gwern Branwen >> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] declining numbers of EN wiki admins >> To: English Wikipedia >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 7:34 PM, David Goodman >> wrote: >>> Are you saying that a _declining_ number of administrators means a >>> _growth_ in bureaucracy? ?It would normally mean the opposite, either >>> a loss of control, or that the ordinary members were taking the >>> function upon themselves. ?What I see is a greater degree of control >>> and uniformity, not driven by those in formal positions of authority. >> >> If you assume that administrators are identical to the bureaucracy or >> some non-shrinking proportion thereof, then that does look like a >> falsehood. >> >> If you assume that administrators reflect rather the number of >> committed long-term contributors, and their numbers wax and wane >> pretty independently of the need for administrators, then that makes >> sense. Little kills enthusiasm and participation as surely as >> bureaucracy. Why are so few even trying for adminship? >> > > My guess is that it's because the bureaucracy has become too intimidating. > I suspect many editors do not want to commit the time and effort to learning > it all. > > > -- _ http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/19780/direct/01/ We want to hear all your funny, exciting and crazy Hotmail stories. Tell us now ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] declining numbers of EN wiki admins Matt Jacobs
On 28 May 2010, at 18:13, c h wrote: > Imagine if it worked more like blocking - if an admin fucks up, > remove their SysOp and have a chat about it. "Hi, I noticed that you > speedy-deleted some files that do not appear to meet the CSD > criteria; your SysOp staus has been removed _while we discuss it_". > No big deal, the admins shouldn't mind. Agreed with this, but it's far easier said than done. I think we're stuck with the RFA system we have now; some things are just too damn unreformable. I can't see the community ever buying into such a system of tool removal tbh. The worst type of admin abuse is the use of tools against a user the admin is involved with/prejudiced against. Unfortunately that kind of abuse is the most complex, which is partly why ArbCom have the job of dealing with it AGK ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] declining numbers of active EN wiki admins
Andrew Gray wrote: > Regardless of what technically happens to that submitted junk, and how > many boxes they tick in the process, we'll still fundamentally have a > space people can put prospective article content into, and someone has > to say no to it. > Is that true? When was the family of deletion processes last reconsidered? If we had a good look at PROD-like mechanisms, which could be partially automated, and "holding areas" where marginal content could be placed in limbo, what would we come up with? What if stub-sorting (by topic) were more integrated with quality sorting? We have certainly not scaled any great heights of sophistication in dealing with the influx of articles. That may or may not be a good thing, but there is surely scope for innovation. Charles ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] declining numbers of EN wiki admins Matt Jacobs
On 28 May 2010, at 18:13, c h wrote: > IMHO, etc... > > The fundamental problem is the difficulty in *removing* SysOp, which *makes* > it a big deal. > > If it really was no big deal, RfA wouldn't need to be such an ordeal; if a > user is competent, reasonably experienced and no DRAMA, we should +SysOp them > (AGF). If they fuck up, remove it (No big deal). Is this really true? This certainly describes how I view adminship... (although this might explain why I don't understand WP:RfA nowadays...) > We block our precious new users at the drop of a hat, but an admin has to do > something pretty damned horrific to even consider removing their status, and > even then it takes months. This depends on what you define as 'pretty damned horrific". I'd say that it's currently more that they have to do something high-profile (e.g. vandalise the main page) or controversial. > Imagine if it worked more like blocking - if an admin fucks up, remove their > SysOp and have a chat about it. "Hi, I noticed that you speedy-deleted some > files that do not appear to meet the CSD criteria; your SysOp staus has been > removed _while we discuss it_". No big deal, the admins shouldn't mind. This would depend on how many files it was that were deleted - one or two, it's easier to AGF and discuss it with them / undo their deletions for a bit. Something more systematic is a bigger issue, worth discussing at higher levels, and possibly temporarily removing adminship (although it might be lower key to just remove the ability do delete files for a bit, if such a thing could be done by another admin rather than involving a sysop). Of course, files can be undeleted, so it's not normally a big issue (except on Commons) - I'd view the big issue as being needlessly blocking people, who then leave Wikipedia without returning... Mike Peel ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
