Re: [WikiEN-l] Developer/Wiki relationship (was: Deployments today)
Vector has it in the sidebar too, let's not forget Vector was modelled after Monobook :P On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 4:41 AM, WereSpielChequers < werespielchequ...@gmail.com> wrote: > This reminds me somewhat of the Vector rollout, I've just today come > across another example of why we need to upgrade newbies to Monobook > once they start editing. Monobook has a rather useful "Email this > user" option in the sidebar. I suspect Vector has something hidden > away in a dropdown menu, but if so I couldn't immediately find it and > I was expecting it to be there. If one on one advice is indeed the > best way for some newbies to learn, them Email is probably one of the > better ways for newbies to get feedback. > > Another reason why we should at least test making Monobook the default > for newby editors - no objections to it being the default for readers > if they were the people it was designed for. > > WereSpielChequers > ___ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > -- James ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Developer/Wiki relationship (was: Deployments today)
This reminds me somewhat of the Vector rollout, I've just today come across another example of why we need to upgrade newbies to Monobook once they start editing. Monobook has a rather useful "Email this user" option in the sidebar. I suspect Vector has something hidden away in a dropdown menu, but if so I couldn't immediately find it and I was expecting it to be there. If one on one advice is indeed the best way for some newbies to learn, them Email is probably one of the better ways for newbies to get feedback. Another reason why we should at least test making Monobook the default for newby editors - no objections to it being the default for readers if they were the people it was designed for. WereSpielChequers On 3 July 2011 18:24, MuZemike wrote: > On 7/1/2011 2:32 PM, Thomas Morton wrote: > >> >> Very little discussion ocurrred r.e. rolling this out. For example no trial >> was offered, no "Request for Comment" was taken to guage community opinion. >> I know these are our processes and a significant part of the blame lies with >> the editors - but even so announcement of the feature suddenly seemed to >> "appear"on-wiki the day before :) (that may not be an accurate picture - but >> for most that is how it appeared). >> >> It was only *after* deployment that is was explained that the extension is >> amazing customisable on-wiki (a really thoughtful idea. You guys need to >> write more extensions like this, awesome stuff). So, more miscommunication. >> >> I've seen this happen before numerous times - Wiki does something. Or a dev >> does something. There is miscommunication and people who would probably see >> eye-to-eye are growling at each other across tables. The established Wiki >> editors feel put out and the developers feel under-appreciated (did I >> mention: WikiLove guys!). [Ironically *the same problem* is a big part of >> the editor retention issue on-wiki] >> > > Personally, I don't see why "community discussion" and "consensus" is > required for each and every change or addition to the software. > Sometimes, bold action is truly the only way to move the encyclopedia > forward, especially in the face of those who generally don't like > change. Many times, the community in general does hold back many > additional innovations the developers may come up with solely for the > sake of "process". This article parallels such conflict between > "process" and "development": > > http://radar.oreilly.com/2011/05/process-kills-developer-passion.html > > -MuZemike > > ___ > WikiEN-l mailing list > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l > ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Developer/Wiki relationship (was: Deployments today)
On 1 July 2011 20:32, Thomas Morton wrote: > Very little discussion ocurrred r.e. rolling this out. For example no trial > was offered, no "Request for Comment" was taken to guage community opinion. > I know these are our processes and a significant part of the blame lies with > the editors - but even so announcement of the feature suddenly seemed to > "appear"on-wiki the day before :) (that may not be an accurate picture - but > for most that is how it appeared). It could be effectively switched off by local admins if there were enough objections. -- geni ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Developer/Wiki relationship (was: Deployments today)
On 7/1/2011 2:32 PM, Thomas Morton wrote: > > Very little discussion ocurrred r.e. rolling this out. For example no trial > was offered, no "Request for Comment" was taken to guage community opinion. > I know these are our processes and a significant part of the blame lies with > the editors - but even so announcement of the feature suddenly seemed to > "appear"on-wiki the day before :) (that may not be an accurate picture - but > for most that is how it appeared). > > It was only *after* deployment that is was explained that the extension is > amazing customisable on-wiki (a really thoughtful idea. You guys need to > write more extensions like this, awesome stuff). So, more miscommunication. > > I've seen this happen before numerous times - Wiki does something. Or a dev > does something. There is miscommunication and people who would probably see > eye-to-eye are growling at each other across tables. The established Wiki > editors feel put out and the developers feel under-appreciated (did I > mention: WikiLove guys!). [Ironically *the same problem* is a big part of > the editor retention issue on-wiki] > Personally, I don't see why "community discussion" and "consensus" is required for each and every change or addition to the software. Sometimes, bold action is truly the only way to move the encyclopedia forward, especially in the face of those who generally don't like change. Many times, the community in general does hold back many additional innovations the developers may come up with solely for the sake of "process". This article parallels such conflict between "process" and "development": http://radar.oreilly.com/2011/05/process-kills-developer-passion.html -MuZemike ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
Re: [WikiEN-l] Developer/Wiki relationship (was: Deployments today)
On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Thomas Morton wrote: > So the question that this leads me to is this: what can we do to improve > communication between these two groups. How can we vocalize the communities > thoughts, ideas and independence. How do we get the creativity and > versatility of the developers in front of the community. As far as communication goes, I think the way communication and publicity occurs on Wikipedia is a bit hit-and-miss. Sometimes people are aware of the sheer size and diversity of Wikipedia, and the need for adequate communication and discussion of something with notices left in the right places. But even when something has been widely publicized and discussed, you will still get people turning up and saying "I wasn't aware of this" (which is why it is useful to have a summary of the notifications to point them towards, so they can realise where they should be paying attention). It doesn't really apply to developer-community interaction, but an attempt to cover the spectrum of publicity efforts is here (which I started a while ago): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Publicising_discussions Trouble is, I'm not sure how many people are aware of that advice. I do get the impression that a lot more of the centralised discussions get wide participation now, but it is always a balancing act between publicizing too much and too little (not everything needs lots and lots of notices). This is best summed up by what the page currently says: >From 'Wikipedia:Publicising discussions': "Most discussions will only use a few of the publicity methods shown. Normal discussions do not always need large amounts of input. A balance needs to be struck between gaining sufficient input for consensus, and overwhelming a discussion with too much input. Similarly, publicising minor discussions makes it more difficult for editors to identify the major discussions where their comments are more important." It would be really good to be able to follow the number of hits a page is getting in terms of *where* people came from to arrive at that page, and hence get an idea of which forms of notification work best, but I'm not sure that is technically possible or can be made public for various reasons (if it was, it could involve ranking the links in 'what links here' by how many hits they were generating). For developer-community interactions, the main problem is usually that developers do work off-wiki and may be working to different specifications to that that some editors on-wiki would prefer, and it is not always clear how much flexibility there is, and whether developers are following their preferences or whether it is software and/or time and available resources that is constraining them. But an important point for developers to pick up on is no matter how brilliant the work they do, it won't get used if the community it is written for don't like it, or react against it due to poor roll-out methods. Carcharoth ___ WikiEN-l mailing list WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
