Re: [WikiEN-l] "How the Professor Who Fooled Wikipedia Got Caught by Reddit", _The Atlantic_

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

On 21 May 2012 00:09, David Levy  wrote:

> Gwern Branwen wrote:
>
> > There's nothing to answer;
>
> Yes, there is.  Your methodology has been challenged, and you've yet
> to identify the compromised articles, indicate that you've stopped
> performing such edits or confirm that the damage has been repaired.
>
> You've admitted to committing widespread vandalism, and you now appear
> to be boasting of the accomplishment and mocking the community's
> response.  Why shouldn't you be blocked to prevent further disruption?
>  (To be clear, this isn't a rhetorical question.)
>

Because sometimes it's a good thing to ignore all rules to make a point?

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Point me to discussions with newcomers about notability?

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

Sorry to go on about this, but it really defies belief, sometimes, when you
go into these things. I picked Yogscast because I'd just been watching an
episode with my wife *and* I was just about 100% sure there wouldn't be an
article on Wikipedia about them.

What are you to make of an exchange like this (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:UtherSRG/Archive_4#Deletion_of_Yogscast),
really, if you're looking to write an article about the Yogscast?

Awesome, the file's nuked, and
CIreland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CIreland> salted
the Yogscast page. I think we put a stopper on that!
--HTMLCODER.exe<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:HTMLCODER.exe>
 (talk <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:HTMLCODER.exe>) 23:25, 28
April 2011 (UTC)

"Awesome" in combination with "nuking" stuff and salting a page? Ack.

Michel

On 9 October 2011 01:38, Michel Vuijlsteke  wrote:

> Here's a couple of "discussions". In the very loosest sense of the term.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Yogscast
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/The_Yogscast
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shadow_of_Israphel
>
> This says it all, really:
>
>
>- *Delete* - Yet another attempt by fans of an unremarkable podcast to
>find a way to promote themselves on Wikipedia. See the deletion logs for 
> The
>
> YogPod<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_YogPod&action=edit&redlink=1>
>, The 
> Yogscast<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Yogscast&action=edit&redlink=1>
>, The 
> yogscast<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_yogscast&action=edit&redlink=1>,
>and 
> Yogscast<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yogscast&action=edit&redlink=1>
>. MikeWazowski <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MikeWazowski> 
> (talk<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MikeWazowski>)
>14:34, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
>
>
> And apparently it's personal:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:CIreland#The_Yogscast_Wikipedia_page
>
> Excellent (imho) article start here, btw:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bastawhiz/The_Yogscast
>
> On 9 October 2011 01:18, Michel Vuijlsteke  wrote:
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogscast springs to mind.
>>
>> A million followers on Youtube, arguably one of the factors in making
>> Minecraft as popular as it is today, deleted time after time.
>>
>> Michel Vuijlsteke
>>
>>
>> On 9 October 2011 01:11, WereSpielChequers 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> One good place to look would be talkpages deleted per G8, especially
>>> where
>>> the article was deleted per A7.
>>>
>>> Better still if you could get an extract of deleted talkpage edits by
>>> editors with less than 100 edits.
>>>
>>> Or if you don't have access to deleted edits, an extract of Wikipedia
>>> space
>>> edits in subpages of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion by editors with
>>> fewer
>>> than 100 edits would find shed loads.
>>>
>>> In my experience the most common argument against our notability concept
>>> is
>>> along the lines of "but he exists!". Which is more a failure to grasp the
>>> concept of notability as opposed to having an alternative concept of it.
>>>
>>> More meaningful ones are along the lines of Wikipedia not embracing the
>>> Internet -  our lack of regard for people with high youtube followings
>>> does
>>> seem perverse to some; And ones where notability is as yet uncertain such
>>> as
>>> new signings to major teams who haven't yet played for the team.
>>>
>>> WereSpielChequers
>>>
>>> On 8 October 2011 09:24, David Gerard  wrote:
>>>
>>> > 2011/10/7 Johan Jönsson :
>>> >
>>> > > do you remember any particular discussions about articles (on the
>>> talk
>>> > > page, or AfD if enough newcomers found their way there) on English
>>> > > Wikipedia where you could see that new editors/outsiders didn't agree
>>> > > with the concept of notability, or how notability is interpreted
>>> among
>>> > > (most) Wikipedians? I know that I've seen them, I just can't seem
>>> > > where to find them.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > +1
>>> >
>>> > These need collecting.
>>> >
>>> 

Re: [WikiEN-l] Point me to discussions with newcomers about notability?

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

Here's a couple of "discussions". In the very loosest sense of the term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Yogscast
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/The_Yogscast
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Shadow_of_Israphel

This says it all, really:


   - *Delete* - Yet another attempt by fans of an unremarkable podcast to
   find a way to promote themselves on Wikipedia. See the deletion logs for The
   
YogPod<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_YogPod&action=edit&redlink=1>
   , The 
Yogscast<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Yogscast&action=edit&redlink=1>
   , The 
yogscast<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_yogscast&action=edit&redlink=1>,
   and 
Yogscast<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yogscast&action=edit&redlink=1>
   . MikeWazowski <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MikeWazowski>
(talk<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MikeWazowski>)
   14:34, 14 July 2011 (UTC)


And apparently it's personal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:CIreland#The_Yogscast_Wikipedia_page

Excellent (imho) article start here, btw:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bastawhiz/The_Yogscast

On 9 October 2011 01:18, Michel Vuijlsteke  wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogscast springs to mind.
>
> A million followers on Youtube, arguably one of the factors in making
> Minecraft as popular as it is today, deleted time after time.
>
> Michel Vuijlsteke
>
>
> On 9 October 2011 01:11, WereSpielChequers wrote:
>
>> One good place to look would be talkpages deleted per G8, especially where
>> the article was deleted per A7.
>>
>> Better still if you could get an extract of deleted talkpage edits by
>> editors with less than 100 edits.
>>
>> Or if you don't have access to deleted edits, an extract of Wikipedia
>> space
>> edits in subpages of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion by editors with fewer
>> than 100 edits would find shed loads.
>>
>> In my experience the most common argument against our notability concept
>> is
>> along the lines of "but he exists!". Which is more a failure to grasp the
>> concept of notability as opposed to having an alternative concept of it.
>>
>> More meaningful ones are along the lines of Wikipedia not embracing the
>> Internet -  our lack of regard for people with high youtube followings
>> does
>> seem perverse to some; And ones where notability is as yet uncertain such
>> as
>> new signings to major teams who haven't yet played for the team.
>>
>> WereSpielChequers
>>
>> On 8 October 2011 09:24, David Gerard  wrote:
>>
>> > 2011/10/7 Johan Jönsson :
>> >
>> > > do you remember any particular discussions about articles (on the talk
>> > > page, or AfD if enough newcomers found their way there) on English
>> > > Wikipedia where you could see that new editors/outsiders didn't agree
>> > > with the concept of notability, or how notability is interpreted among
>> > > (most) Wikipedians? I know that I've seen them, I just can't seem
>> > > where to find them.
>> >
>> >
>> > +1
>> >
>> > These need collecting.
>> >
>> > Deleting newcomers' hard work is one of our big PR problems. Even if,
>> > after contemplation, we decide we were actually right to do so.
>> >
>> > When someone wanders into the sausage factory and the very first thing
>> > that happens is that they fall head-first into the meat grinder ...
>> > this is an *unfortunate* circumstance.
>> >
>> >
>> > - d.
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
>> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>> >
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>
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Point me to discussions with newcomers about notability?

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogscast springs to mind.

A million followers on Youtube, arguably one of the factors in making
Minecraft as popular as it is today, deleted time after time.

Michel Vuijlsteke

On 9 October 2011 01:11, WereSpielChequers wrote:

> One good place to look would be talkpages deleted per G8, especially where
> the article was deleted per A7.
>
> Better still if you could get an extract of deleted talkpage edits by
> editors with less than 100 edits.
>
> Or if you don't have access to deleted edits, an extract of Wikipedia space
> edits in subpages of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion by editors with fewer
> than 100 edits would find shed loads.
>
> In my experience the most common argument against our notability concept is
> along the lines of "but he exists!". Which is more a failure to grasp the
> concept of notability as opposed to having an alternative concept of it.
>
> More meaningful ones are along the lines of Wikipedia not embracing the
> Internet -  our lack of regard for people with high youtube followings does
> seem perverse to some; And ones where notability is as yet uncertain such
> as
> new signings to major teams who haven't yet played for the team.
>
> WereSpielChequers
>
> On 8 October 2011 09:24, David Gerard  wrote:
>
> > 2011/10/7 Johan Jönsson :
> >
> > > do you remember any particular discussions about articles (on the talk
> > > page, or AfD if enough newcomers found their way there) on English
> > > Wikipedia where you could see that new editors/outsiders didn't agree
> > > with the concept of notability, or how notability is interpreted among
> > > (most) Wikipedians? I know that I've seen them, I just can't seem
> > > where to find them.
> >
> >
> > +1
> >
> > These need collecting.
> >
> > Deleting newcomers' hard work is one of our big PR problems. Even if,
> > after contemplation, we decide we were actually right to do so.
> >
> > When someone wanders into the sausage factory and the very first thing
> > that happens is that they fall head-first into the meat grinder ...
> > this is an *unfortunate* circumstance.
> >
> >
> > - d.
> >
> > ___
> > WikiEN-l mailing list
> > WikiEN-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, visit:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> >
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Re: [WikiEN-l] "Wikipedia committee member"

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

On 31 August 2010 16:51, David Gerard  wrote:

> On 31 August 2010 15:16, Michel Vuijlsteke  wrote:
>
> > Whether a part of an article is a spoiler or not (and it's certainly not
> a
> > black & white issue) is an interesting bit of metadata to add. There's a
> > variety of ways to display this information in an article -- collapsible
> > paragraphs, a "spoiler warning" alert, white on white text, etc. Any of
> > these display methods could have a "enough with the spoiler warnings" or
> > "don't hide plot points from me anymore" -- that's just a UI point.
> > Of course, it's a little late for that now. All that information was
> > removed. Too bad.
>
>
> How do you objectively and neutrally determine what is and isn't a spoiler?
>

You don't.
Just like you can't objectively and neutrally determine if someone is fit to
be an administrator, or if a picture is really "beautiful, stunning,
impressive, or informative" enough to be featured.

It's a call you make. You do something you believe will get a consensus.
Most of the time there won't be much discussion: "Crowe was dead himself the
whole time" and "Tyler Durden is the narrator's alter ego" probably could
have a spoiler warning; "The Titanic sinks" and "Jesus dies on the cross but
not really" probably don't need one. If you do get discussion, there's
oodles of mechanisms to resolve things.

Anyway. That particular data has been removed, the discussion has been held,
no point in revisiting it, I guess. Sorry for bringing it up at all.

Michel Vuijlsteke
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Re: [WikiEN-l] "Wikipedia committee member"

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

I do not think many people are advocating removing information like the plot
of a novel, movie or play.

A vocal minority has successfully argued that information should be removed
from articles indicating that certain parts of the article may contain
information that would spoil one's enjoyment of the novel, movie or play.

Whether a part of an article is a spoiler or not (and it's certainly not a
black & white issue) is an interesting bit of metadata to add. There's a
variety of ways to display this information in an articles -- collapsible
paragraphs, a "spoiler warning" alert, white on white text, etc. Any of
these display methods could have a "enough with the spoiler warnings" or
"don't hide plot points from me anymore" -- that's just a UI point.

Of course, it's a little late for that now. All that information was
removed. Too bad.

Michel Vuijlsteke

On 31 August 2010 15:53, Nathan  wrote:

> The idea that we should hide or withhold obviously pertinent
> information - like the plot of a novel, movie, play, etc. in an
> article about same - has always struck me as anti-encyclopedia.
> Personally, I often look up articles on these subjects just to find
> out details of the plot... are you considering my needs as a reader
> when you make the paternalistic decision to scrub these articles of
> "spoilers"? I'm frustrated to find, on a regular basis, articles of
> this type stripped of all but the most general plot information -
> reduced, essentially, to the marketing blurbs put out by whoever
> publishes the content. Often you can find the plot information in the
> article history, and I've restored several of them, but who knows how
> many readers have come to the article hoping to see the plot and been
> disappointed by its absence? Encyclopedia articles ought to be
> comprehensive, and we rightly shoot down proposals aimed at the
> opposite.
>
> ~Nathan
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] List of Rivers of Egpyt - what to do?

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

Add links to [Wadi]? To [Brook of Egypt]? :)

On 25 May 2010 09:05, Steve Bennett  wrote:

> So I decided to fill in a red link I saw on the community portal:
> [[List of Rivers of Egypt]]. I started creating the article, then
> reached the amusing realisation that perhaps there is only one. Yep,
> that one.
>
> So, do we just have a pathetically short list? It seems for
> completeness etc, that would be the right thing to do.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rivers_of_Egypt
>
> Steve
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Administrator coup / mass deletions

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2010/1/21 David Gerard 

> Does anyone have a summary of the articles deleted in the present
> blood-crazed axe frenzy? Is there a list up? And/or a description of
> the general type of BLP deleted?
>
> I understand many were hardly-viewed articles with no edits in the
> last six months. Which sounds innocuous enough, but remember that
> [[John Seigenthaler]] was one of those until the subject noticed.


I don't get the entire controversy: is it not the case that only
*statements* can be sourced, and not entire articles?
Does that not mean that if  [[John Seigenthaler]] contained at least one
 at the time, it wouldn't have been affected by this?

So why not go the whole hog and delete all BLPs where not every statement is
sourced?

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/9/18 Durova 

> Let's set the Sistine Chapel example to rest: physical restoration and
> digital restoration are so different that it clouds the discussion to
> compare them.


I could not disagree more. But I get the impression this is a discussion
that would be a lot easier to have in person rather than by e-mail, so I'll
graciously bow out. :)

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/9/18 Durova 

> A new creative copyright is generated each time a tourist stands beneath
> the
> Venus de Milo and takes a snapshot due to the inherent creative decision in
> choosing angle and lighting when photographing three dimensional artwork.
> Creative copyright also attaches when the same tourist heads over to the
> Mona Lisa and takes another snapshot, since the frame around the Mona Lisa
> is three dimensional (there's also the creative joy of capturing dozens of
> tourist ballcaps in the periphery).
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Derivative_works
>
> Compare that creative effort to--for example--the creative intuition of
> reconstructing Admiral David Farragut's eyes.  This was the man who said,
> "Damn the torpedoes.  Full speed ahead!"  Working on his portrait at 700%
> resolution, I was fascinated by that quote.
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AdmFarragut.jpg
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Adm2.jpg
>
> At the time of that work I was thinking if it came out right, a viewer
> might
> imagine for an instant that Admiral Farragut was capable of turning and
> ordering another assault on New Orleans.  Of course with eyes a few pixels
> moved and the expression could have turned out entirely different.
>

Er... yes, *and*?

Yes, restoration can be a lot of work (Farragut's eyes don't strike me as
particularly hard to tackle or controversial, but that's perhaps just me --
I did a much trickier one the other month that arguably crossed the line of
OR, where I corrected a double exposure, brr).

Sure, photography can be very easy to do. And sometimes it's very hard to
do. Sometimes there's no creativity involved, and sometimes there is.

And?

I'm terribly sorry, but still don't get your point. Are you begrudging
photographers their rights?

I get that you're frustrated that many people don't realise hand restoration
can be a lot of work in terms of man-hours and that there's some skill
involved a the occasional judgement call, but what would be your ideal
outcome?

An additional field in photo credits (if and when they ever show up in
articles) for the restorer(s)? A different type of license?

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/9/18 Durova 

> If I were to place restorations under copyleft license it would backfire.
> Not necessarily backfire against me personally, but against the free
> culture
> movement.  Look at the "paint by numbers" analogies within this list
> thread:

many people cannot distinguish between careful hand restoration and simple
> crop/filter/auto-levels editing.  My featured picture restorations take
> about ten hours' labor on average and one of my greatest fears is that
> fellow Wikimedians will mistake that for five minutes of running plug-ins.
> Imagine how simple it would be for an institution to protect its income
> stream by exploiting that confusion.
>

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your argument.
I know firsthand that hand restoration takes time. I also know that some
people can't distinguish hand restoration from dust&scratches + auto levels.

I stand by my painting by numbers analogy for most digital restorations. But
even if it weren't the case, and digital restoration was as incomparibly
hard an frought with judgement calls as, say, the [[Restoration of the
Sistine Chapel frescoes]]... do the restorers assert any rights? Should they
be able to?

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/9/17 Carcharoth 

> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke 
> wrote:
> > 2009/9/17 Carcharoth 
>
> 
>
> >> And in any cases, some aspects of restoration *are* creative (mainly
> >> the ones that involve filling in missing material), but those can be
> >> controversial.
> >
> > Matter of interpretation. Take this portrait I restored:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Andrew_Curtin2.jpg
> > Can you tell what I filled in? This is the original image:
> > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Andrew_Curtin.jpg
> >
> > Skill involved, sure. But no artistry.
> >
> > Adding a hand was an order of magnitude easier than adding the missing
> parts
> > of his pants, by the way. :)
>
> Thanks for those examples. An excellent restoration. I'd love to
> discuss the missing hand in more detail some time, as that is a good
> example of something I think can be controversial. You absolutely have
> to make clear when that sort of thing is done, and how and why.
>

Ah: "Restored version of File:Andrew
Curtin.jpg<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Andrew_Curtin.jpg>.
Dust, scratches and tears removed. Parts reconstructed by using other half
of stereophotograph[1] <http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/cwpbh.01289> Histogram
adjusted and cropped."

Examples of when the line is crossed between adding things and
> creating something new, would be good. I know of quite a few examples,
> but will have to come back to this later. Mainly digital composites
> and colouring ins of old photos.
>

Agree 100%.

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/9/17 Carcharoth 

> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 2:04 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke 
> wrote:
> > I personally think image restoration is more like painting by numbers
> than
> > creative work.
> >
> > It's like "creating" an Ikea bookcase: there is some *skill* involved but
> no
> > artistic or creative input. And if it's done properly, there's no way of
> > telling who did assembled the bookcase, or indeed restored the image.
>
> There is a lot more skill than 'painting by numbers' involved. One way
> to tell is to look at the market for such skills. Look at the salaries
> paid to a painter and to a skilled image restorer.


> Even if you can't do that, then the time involved is the clincher. It
> may not be strictly speaking creative, but it does deserve
> recognition.
>

I'm not disagreeing with you that it deserves recognition, and that it takes
time. But as you say: it's not strictly creative. Assembling a thousand
identical Ikea bookcases also takes time. :)

I had my first FP on Labour Day and that was a restored image. When I
submitted the restoration I knew full well that I was submitting it to a
site that allowsall content to be reused commercially, and that no
attribution was necessary. And I'm fine with that.


> And in any cases, some aspects of restoration *are* creative (mainly
> the ones that involve filling in missing material), but those can be
> controversial.
>

Matter of interpretation. Take this portrait I restored:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Andrew_Curtin2.jpg
Can you tell what I filled in? This is the original image:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Andrew_Curtin.jpg

Skill involved, sure. But no artistry.

Adding a hand was an order of magnitude easier than adding the missing parts
of his pants, by the way. :)

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikimedian image restorations exploited on eBay

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/9/17 Durova 

> The Louis Brandeis restoration was 20 hours' labor.  Extensive staining and
> chemical damage required careful reconstruction including large portions of
> his face.  It is, likewise, shocking to encounter a senior editor--an
> arbitrator no less--who calmly presumes such work entails no creative input
> and no share of authorship.


I personally think image restoration is more like painting by numbers than
creative work.

It's like "creating" an Ikea bookcase: there is some *skill* involved but no
artistic or creative input. And if it's done properly, there's no way of
telling who did assembled the bookcase, or indeed restored the image.

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] News agencies are not RSs

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/6/30 Gwern Branwen 

> Even if we think *they* were not a RS (which of course they are),
> there were still other sources:
>
> "Word came close to leaking widely last month when Rohde won his
> second Pulitzer Prize, as part of the Times team effort for coverage
> of Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Italian news agency Adnkronos
> International did spill the beans, reportedly spurring a number of
> blogs into action."
>
> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25673247-2703,00.html
>

Sorry, Adnkronos International is not a reliable source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=David_S._Rohde&diff=next&oldid=277012138


Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] News agencies are not RSs

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

I don't see why they didn't indef-protect the entry with a reference to an
OTRS ticket. That eventually happened, but only after much drama, and after
branding a news agency "unreliable".
Michel

2009/6/30 Ian Woollard 

> Can I ask what policy this was done under? While I generally approve
> of the action here, it seems that the admins involved were not
> entirely following the letter or really entirely the spirit of
> Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. So how are they not
> technically rouge admins?
>
> So shouldn't there, if practical to do so, a policy for this kind of
> thing? At the very least that way the boundaries of what is and isn't
> acceptable can be discussed.
>
> I'm also left wondering whether there are any other similar things
> going on, either temporary activities, or extended ones; or whether
> there have been in the past. If administrators do things, how is a
> user supposed to know that they're doing it for a sensible reason,
> rather than some less savoury purpose?
>
> --
> -Ian Woollard
>
> "All the world's a stage... but you'll grow out of it eventually."
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Twitterpedia will win

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/5/5 David Gerard 

> "The Peloponnesian War, which lasted from 431-404BC, was an Ancient
> Greek military war, fought by Athens and its empire against the
> Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."
>
> That's 167 characters. Think we could get a 140 character requirement
> added to [[Wikipedia:Lead section]]?


"The Peloponnesian War (431-404BC), was an Ancient Greek war between Athens
and its empire against the Peloponnesian League, led by Sparta."?

:)

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Art incident

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/4/27 Ray Saintonge 

> wjhon...@aol.com wrote:
> > If I create a piece of art using Coca-Cola bottles and call it "Coca-Cola
> > Art" am I infringing on a trademark?  Or am I describing my art piece
> > accurately?
> >
> Was Andy Warhol ever sued for his Campbell Soup cans?
>

I think the answer is "no, of course not, silly". :)
But I also think things would've been radically different if he'd made cans
of soup, called them Campbell soup cans and put them in supermarkets.

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/4/23 

> The Domesday holdings are not significant to his biography.
> We are not trying to build a land holdings database, we are writing
> biographies.
>

We are writing a comprehensive written compendium that holds information
from either all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge.
We are not writing a comprehensive written compendium of biographies.

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] A morsel of substance, a truckload of nonsense

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/4/23 David Gerard 

> 2009/4/23  :
>
> > In this case, there are two pages (yes just two) of "biography" if you
> > will, and *six* pages of this nonsense.  That's just a tad overweight I
>  think
> > we can all agree on that point.
>
>
> The solution is to add more bio, not to cut the land holdings.


More bio would obviously be fine, but I don't agree that that there is a
problem to be solved here.

If it bothers you there is too much "of this nonsense", don't read it. That
"nonsense" to you may be much more important to someone else.

"Undue weight" is not an issue either. The article is not asserting that the
"nonsense" is more important than anything else in the man's life. It is
what it is: a reference list.

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Citizendium vs. Wikipedia

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/4/22 Carcharoth 

> And Citizendium's coverage is lacking in vital areas.
>
> I tried to look up Macedonia, but no article.
>
> One sentence article:
>
> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Mongolia
>
> One paragraph article:
>
> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Greece
>
> No articles on Chad, Bolivia, Malawi. I stopped looking.
>
>
Oh boy. And Belgium is plain *wrong*. I applied for an author account just
to be able to change the most egregious nonsense.

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] wow

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/4/21 Durova :

[off list]]

> It's going to be hard to get UN membership while refusing to sign on to
> international copyright treaties, but things are looking solid for opening
> an independent banking system and developing tourism.  This place has some
> of the world's best fishing.

No copyright treaties? Huh?

*blink*

Whee! I'm off to make me some Wikipedia Logo t-shirts to sell!! Yay!!

Michel

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Citizendium

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/4/15  :
> You're assuming Fred that the conflict comes from non-neutral
> point-of-view.  But you can have other conflicts over content issues
> but are yet neutral.  Such as the length of an article.
>
> One group wants the Shirley Temple article to be 5K at the most.
> Another wants it to be 15K.  Both sides are "neutral" in what they
> present.


One wants a list of Pokemon with at most the name of each, another
wants an article per Pokemon.
One wants at most a list of episode names for a give TV series,
another sees no harm in an article per episode.

Ahem. :)

Michel

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Re: [WikiEN-l] An open letter to Jimmy Wales

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/4/11 David Gerard :
> 2009/4/11 Michel Vuijlsteke :
>
>> I don't get the point.
>> In North Korea I assume it's not looked favourably upon when you
>> criticise the Dear Leader.
>> Does that mean that no North Korean should criticise WMF on Wikipedia?
>
>
> No, it's that wikien-l has a civility rule too. And saying "I'M GOING
> TO REPEAT MYSELF FOREVER UNTIL YOU AGREE WITH ME" falls afoul of it.
>
> You appear to be comparing Citizendium to North Korea.

There's very probably an article on Wikipedia somewhere explaining
just what you did there.

/end of discussion for me too.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] An open letter to Jimmy Wales

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/4/11 David Gerard :
> 2009/4/11 Fred Bauder :
>
>> Unreal! And Larry Sanger thought he could come to Wikipedia and lodge
>> complaints...
>
>
> Indeed. It's the bit where he's behaving here in a manner that
> wouldn't be put up with for a second on Citizendium or any of its
> associated mailing lists or forums that's most surprising.

I don't get the point.

In North Korea I assume it's not looked favourably upon when you
criticise the Dear Leader.

Does that mean that no North Korean should criticise WMF on Wikipedia?

Michel

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Re: [WikiEN-l] An open letter to Jimmy Wales

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/4/11 Fred Bauder :

> http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Nocomplaints
>
> Unreal! And Larry Sanger thought he could come to Wikipedia and lodge
> complaints...

On Wikipedia, if you have an issue with an editor, you post a message
on his/her talk page. What do the rules on any outside website have to
do with the way things are done on Wikipedia?

Michel

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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Forum

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

I know what you mean. I fail to see the relevance of all those
baseball articles.

2009/4/9 Eugene van der Pijll :
> Bill Carter schreef:
>> For everyone else, take my angry diatribes seriously and verify the
>> accusations I am making. the article with 40 citations that was speedy
>> deleted remains here:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MichaelQSchmidt/sandbox_The_unloved_article
>
> The article is excellently referenced, but it just fails to make me
> care. Why is this journalist more interesting than others? What makes
> him notable? Give us a reason why he should have an article. I'm as
> inclusionist as no other, but this article doesn't show me in any way
> how Alan Cabal is different from his colleagues, who don't get an
> article.
>
> (And don't post it to the list: edit the article to make it clear why it
> should be returned to the encyclopedia.)
>
> Eugene
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Wikipedia Forum

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

There is Wikipedia Review: http://wikipediareview.com/
It is not considered favourably by many.

2009/4/9 Tris Thomas :
> Confused now??!!
>
> On 09/04/2009 20:52, Wily D wrote:
>> The - uh - main one is pretty politically contraversial.
>>
>> Bian
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Tris Thomas  wrote:
>>
>>> An unofficial one that editors frequent?
>>>
>>> On 09/04/2009 20:48, David Gerard wrote:
>>>
 2009/4/9 Tris Thomas:



> Is there a Wikipedia forum, the mailing list is all well&    good, but
> wouldn't a forum be much more useful?!
>
>
 Not an official one.


 - d.

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Re: [WikiEN-l] A proposal to simplify and improve image markup in Wikipedia

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

Great stuff, all of this. Seriously, thanks.

2009/4/3 Håkon Wium Lie 

> I've spent the last few days analyzing Wikipedia's HTML code for
> images and captions. The current code is quite good, but verbose and
> it has redundancies. Here is a proposal that describes how to simplify
> and improve the code:
>
>  http://www.princexml.com/howcome/2009/wikipedia/image/
>
> The proposed solution reduces the number of elements from 10 to 6 and
> the code size is reduced by more than 50%.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -h&kon
>  Håkon Wium Lie  CTO °þe®ª
> howc...@opera.com  http://people.opera.com/howcome
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] A proposal to simplify and improve footnote markup in Wikipedia

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

+1

2009/3/31 Håkon Wium Lie 

> In the quest to simplify and improve Wikipedia's HTML code, the turn
> has come to footnotes. Here is a proposal that describes how the
> number of elements needed to represent footnotes can be halved:
>
>  http://www.princexml.com/howcome/2009/wikipedia/ref/
>
> Some of the proposed changes seems to belong in this group:
>
>  http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2009-March/042405.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> -h&kon
>  Håkon Wium Lie  CTO °þe®ª
> howc...@opera.com  http://people.opera.com/howcome
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Microsoft kills Encarta

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/3/31 doc 

> Today's unassailable
> phenomena, which no one can see anyone displacing, is tomorrow's
> footnote. BASIC anyone? Sinclair? Plastic records?
>

[[Visual Basic .NET]]!
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[WikiEN-l] Ooh, shiny: Wikirank

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

Did anyone see?

http://wikirank.com/en
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/1/13 Carcharoth 

> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Michel Vuijlsteke 
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> > Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to have
> > disappeared:
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784
> >
> > The edit summary just says "oops".
>
> The deletion log helps in cases like this:
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Wikipedia%3AArticles_for_deletion%2FThreshold_(online_game)
>
> "OTRS Courtesy blank"
>
> What probably happened is that someone who was unhappy with some of
> the things said in the heat of the moment e-mailed the Wikipedia OTRS
> service and asked for a courtesy deletion.


 The entire discussion needed to be deleted, apparently. The page now reads
"The result was *delete*." with the rest of the deletion summary in html
comment.

I'm officially weirded out. :)

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Deletion for its own sake (was MUD history)

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/1/12 Philip Sandifer 

>
> On Jan 11, 2009, at 8:56 PM, David Gerard wrote:
>
> > Well, not really. If they don't believe a given item can have reliable
> > sources - the sort of rabid nutters who brag about deletion tallies on
> > their user pages - then they just won't accept anything. I speak here
> > from observation of the phenomenon.
>
> This has been one of the most toxic things I've seen in a long time,
> and it's a real problem. In the Threshold debate, I have seen, in all
> sincerity, the following.
>
> 1: The dismissal of a print source as "unverified"
> 2: The rejection of a source because of the possibility (with no
> evidence) that its author played the game in question.
> 3: The rejection of a third source because it allowed games to be
> submitted for review (even though it didn't review all games submitted)
>
> And, most recently, the article has been the subject of a second AfD
> where the nominator flatly lies about the sourcing in the article,
> asserting that it is sourced to things it isn't, and ignoring sources
> it does have. That particular glory can be found here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)_(2nd_nomination)
>

Anyone any idea where I could find the original AfD? It seems to have
disappeared:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Threshold_(online_game)&oldid=263769784

The edit summary just says "oops".

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] MUD history dissolving into the waters of time

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

Ah, the irony. This entire episode has produced articles like this:
http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/01/08/wikipedia-muds-and-where-the-sources-are/
Lots of information there for Wikipedia.

2009/1/10 Durova 

> Two centuries ago, Jane Austen was popular culture for teenage girls.
> Four centuries ago, Shakespeare was popular culture.
>
> A lot of scholars today would be happier if their contemporaries had kept
> better records about either of their lives.  When Austen's nephew finally
> wrote up his recollections, it was with regrets that nobody who knew more
> was still alive.
>
> -Durova
>
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Ken Arromdee  wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 10 Jan 2009, toddmallen wrote:
> > > There is no question as to his expertise. The question is "Was his
> > > expertise important enough that someone who's -not him- fact checked
> > > and published what he had to say on this matter?" The answer appears
> > > to be "no". Self-published sources, even by experts, are not
> > > particularly reliable, nor do they in any way establish notability.
> >
> > We're not going to start deleting our article about the Simpsons.
> >
> > But we both know very well that sources about the Simpsons aren't going
> to
> > be fact-checked.  Sources about any sort of popular culture topic
> generally
> > aren't fact-checked.  If you publish a book about the Simpsons, the
> > publisher
> > won't go through and verify that your statement about the first
> appearance
> > of Krusty the Clown is correct.  There may be an occasional professional
> > journal with a Simpsons article that is fact-checked, but most of our
> > information in Simpsons articles won't be from sources like that.
> >
> > The idea that using a non-self-published source means it's fact-checked
> > just
> > isn't *true*, unless you're talking about some kind of technical or
> > scientific
> > topic, which this isn't.
> >
> >
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>
>
> --
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Re: [WikiEN-l] MUD history dissolving into the waters of time

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/1/10 Fred Bauder 

> "Wikipedia editors should really have enough knowledge about their
> subject matter to make choices based on good judgement rather than strict
> adherence to flawed guidelines. Any guideline, law or contract doesn't
> absolve one from using one's brain — these things are just frameworks for
> handling worst-case scenarios better.
>
> http://www.unwesen.de/articles/wikipedia_on_mud_history
>
> This is what is frustrating to me. Although I am not recognized expert on
> MUDs, I know enough that the decision made is obviously wrong, while
> those making the decision seem entirely innocent of the subject.
>

Oh, we shouldn't worry that there's a hole in Wikipedia MUD coverage where
Threshold used to be -- from the AfD:


   - *KEEP*. Read all other MUDs in category, Threshold is definitely most
   notable of them all with the most independent press coverage. [...]
   - *Comment* 
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS,
  for one; we'll get to deleting those other MUD articles in due
time, if it's
  merited. [...]


I don't know know about any of you, but when the first thing on the closing
admin's talk page is "I have deleted over 1,700 pages on Wikipedia, through
C:CSD  and
WP:AFD.
A very small percentage of that, 2-3%, have been listed at deletion
review,
and only a handful have been overturned -- and not a single one has been
because of "corruption" or bad
faith.",
I get a really bad feeling.

Michel
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[WikiEN-l] MUD history dissolving into the waters of time

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

Nothing exceptional about this, of course:
http://www.massively.com/2009/01/06/mud-history-dissolving-into-the-waters-of-time/

Sigh.
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Re: [WikiEN-l] To boldy delete what no one had deleted before!

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2009/1/6 White Cat 

> Am I over extending myself when I wish to see proof of consensus behind the
> mass removals?


There is no consensus, and there never will be, by definition almost: we'll
never have "serious treatment of every group member's considered opinion". And
I don't think this is something that can be solved by consensus anyway.

As David Goodman said: it's time for a firm policy. From on high: decide
once and for all on the inclusionist/deletionist party line, and then stick
to it.

The way things are now, it's much easier by far for radical deletionists to
have their way than for any sort of inclusionist, for obvious reasons: a
delete or delete-by-redirect is done in a fraction of the time it takes to
write an article.

Everywhere you look, articles are being deleted, and it's not limited to
Episodes & Characters of webcomics--just now I tried to look up [[Julie
Powell]] (film starring Meryl Streep in production about her, reliable
sources up the wazoo): article deleted for lack of notability.

How can you look at a spree like [[user:TTN]]'s and *not* feel bad? Add up
the hours spent editing the articles he's deleting, the hours wasted trying
to stop the deletion, the editors disgusted, discouraged and driven away...

The Economist was not exagerating, last year, when they called it a battle
for the soul of Wikipedia. This situation is getting worse all the time.

And it's time someone put a stop to it.

Either say we're like a paper encyclopedia and we don't do popular culture,
we discourage stubs, we insist on extremely broad notability and we think of
ourselves a a kind of Encyclopedia Brittanica. Or say we're like the
Wikipedia I started editing in 2002.

Michel Vuijlsteke
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[WikiEN-l] Wikipedia's new plea for donations stirs skepticism

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

This

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081230-wikipedias-new-plea-for-donations-stirs-skepticism.html

is now showing up on Digg. Anyone on damage control?

Michel
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Anti-intellectualism

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

Diffs or it didn't happen!

:)

Michel

2008/12/11 Phil Sandifer 

> Avoiding making this a de facto RFC on a given article...
>
> I've been getting into a fairly nasty feud on a popular culture
> article in which I added an "academic criticism" section, summarizing
> articles I could find on the subject.
>
> This seems to me well-supported by numerous policies. But it has
> proven inordinately contentious, and contentious in what seems to me
> particularly pernicious ways - the articles (from peer-reviewed
> journals) have been compared to blog posts and fancruft, declared non-
> notable (not that notability determines article content), and the
> sections have been accused of being jargon-filled (which, they are,
> yes, but we're dealing with criticism in the humanities. It's jargon-
> filled, and the jargon doesn't translate to everyday words easily, or
> else we wouldn't use the jargon).
>
> I'm very, very troubled by this, for a number of reasons. For one
> thing, it seems to me to cheapen Wikipedia, miring us in the everyday
> and the simple. I am unable to think of anyone who would seriously
> criticize an encyclopedia for excessively covering peer-reviewed,
> academic scholarship. Covering academic criticism of any subject
> should be a goal for us. It should be the goal for us.
>
> But apparently this position is not only not widely held, but an
> incredible minority position.
>
> Am I crazy? Did I just get a bad bunch of people conversing on the
> article, such that I should spill the article name and get the sanity
> brigade on it? Or are we really of the opinion that peer-reviewed
> academic criticism is a non-notable perspective on a subject?
>
> -Phil
>
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Re: [WikiEN-l] Serious problems with interlanguage links

[Michel Vuijlsteke]

2008/12/6 Eugene van der Pijll <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> (who is a bit ticked off about this subject because of all the work he's
> done to keep incorrect wikilinks off the [[Hoek]] dab page...)
>

Sorely tempted to add a reference to Ren Höek to [[Hoek]]. :D

Michel
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